A Discussion of sexualised design of male/female characters

[Russian-chiropractic19]

Lately this topic has been brought up numerous times, but in heated arguments where no intelligent discussion could take place. Ive grown tired of trying time and again to discuss this topic in those situations so im making my own to talk about what i feel is an interesting subject far beyond imply SJW vs the internet.

This NOT a discussion of what should/shouldn't be in games this is merely a topic meant to discuss what is occurring in character design, the intricacies of, and the ever on going confusions of male vs female sexualization.

WARNING: keep in mind while there is no nudity you will likely be bombarded with images of half naked men and women so probably shouldn't open this up in work.

to start things off i want to show a few interesting things

Spoiler: Legendary Black Falcon

Spoiler: Revy

Spoiler: Haseo fanart

Spoiler: MGS2 Raiden

leading example of Male fanservice

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

My problem with this honestly is the double standard.
People act as if Males CAN'T be sexualized, not the fact that females dress less then men.

As you showed yourself, you have quite the few pictures that either have males showing off their bodies with their outfits(Haseo and Free!) or the clothing itself fits REMARKABLY well on the males to the point of being spraypainted(Ryu and Raiden).

I'll probably help contribute with male fanservice when I get the chance, but that's my main beef with the whole thing.

 

[Kirito]

Sexualize them all. I like as much fanservice as I can get, man or woman or lovely inbetweens. Show all the boobies. Show all the pecs. Show all the abs. Show EVERYTHING.

In all seriousness, I don't understand how sexualization can be a bad thing. Some people may not take it seriously when it's full of boobies and chests, but that's not the point of nudity. Nudity, if not artistic, is for entertainment purposes. Sex sells! Japan gets it, and doesn't make a fuss of it, unlike the Tumblr feminazi SJW minority running rampant across American college campuses and on the Internet.

 

[Chapstick]

In all seriousness, I don't understand how sexualization can be a bad thing.

I think it can be a crutch to make up for a lack of good gameplay and in a situation like that it'd be a bad thing.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

Stop. This will not turn into anouther tumblr vs the Internet argument that includes the buzzwords and insults people love to throw around . I mean this as something to study and discuss the deseigns, nothing more.

Anyhow I posted those pictures to show off which particular parts of the body are typically shown off when you try to deseign something more sexy.

when you look at Kasumi's LBF variation you notice the cleavage is exposed same as Momiji, but what really interests me is her hips which have small slits on it that barely show any skin, but where but there to be sexy. my point of that picture was that

Point 1: How much skin shown is neglibale it's more about where it's shown and where the artist can focus your eyes.

Revy is a very interesting case as she's a sexy women that wears revealing clothes, but she she's know for being a hardass rather sex symbol. she doesn't really get laden with a lot of the stigma others do. A large part of this is due to her presentation which treats her as a gun fighter over eye candy. this means she gets many of the same camera angles as a typical Hollywood fighters. the sex is still there, but it's not the focus. an interesting note about this series is that the Author actually makes pornographic Doujin under a different pen name.

Point 2: Presentation makes all the difference

Onto the next two Haseo and Free. They represent what's occurring in male fanservice. Haseo is a character from quite awhile ago and I'm not sure if he was meant to be sexual, but fangirls of anime and JRPGs love an exposed stomach. Its the running deseign theme of the Free video and I remmeber seeing a post of a girl who had gotten a character statue and was obsessing over the way he was leaned back causing the shirt to barely expose his stomache

Based on what I've seen and my personal feeling on the matter shirts rising are oddly enough the equivalent of panty shots. it's a part of the body that isn't supposed to be shown off by itself and rarely seen otherwise. Where as it's perfectly normal to be seen in a bathing suit same as with women's bikkini bottom.

Final point is Raiden was purposely deseigned to attract female gamers, but Ryu wasn't despite both wearing very simular outfits though. the skull suit is actually one of a long list of sneaking suits but it's supposed to be the only one particurly sexual

 

[Niitris]

I've never seen sexualization in video games to be a big deal, it's just one of those "things" that exist. Sex sells. This is all forms of popular media, not exclusive to video games.

And in all honesty, both sexes are sexualized rather decently. Now of course it's done more often to females, which is normal btw. Most people in the VG industry are heterosexual males, with most of their audience being heterosexual males. It's natural that females are the more sought-after sex when it comes to these things. But males are sexualized more often than people observe. The reason it doesn't seem like it is because:

1 - The attractive parts of males (abs, biceps, chiseled facial features, etc) aren't as soft and sensual nor have sexual functions. Fat in moderation is desirable for the heterosexual male.
2 - Again, most gamers are guys who are into girls. They're not going to look at a scantily, clad male (Ryu in nothing but fighter trunks) with the same interest.
3 - Females (on average) don't weight appearance as heavily when it comes to sexual desire.

I've gotten to privilege of gaining the idea of how some gay males think. They do indeed enjoy things that give the impression of being laden with testosterone. A few are regs in my most active place, they're cool peoples.

I do think sexualized females can indeed be a crutch for other aspects of a video game. In fact, one can argue that DoA is indeed this. But it sells to the audience, so why not? In all honesty, it's up to you as an educated gamer, if it's worth the value of what you're paying for. Hyper-sexualized is simply what DoA is (which is fine), and I think Team Ninja does a decent job making the males attractive as well. Even if a large percentage of their attention goes to the girls. In fact, part of the reason I enjoy a potential crossover game with Virtua Fighter is this:

Spoiler: nsfw

I think a lot of people get caught up in making "judgements" (understandably so), rather than learning about these things and forming a more educated opinion that doesn't serve to demonize the opposing side. I do think both sides have their appeal points when it comes to these matters; you're not making a point when you dismiss someone as a prude or as sadlife loser. One of the reasons I enjoy fanservice and sexualization in video games is because it might sound weird, but I enjoy learning about the sexual visions and creativity of other people. We're sexual creatures, and to try and scoff people's opinion on these matters, even if they're polarizing, is rather closed minded.

 

[Chapstick]

I don't feel like DOA5 uses sexualization as a crutch, but as a money-grabbing tool. (Since 5U) it's a full complete game with lots of content and great gameplay and as much as we complain about balancing it's better than some other fighting games in that respect.

But back to what the topic is, I think a lot of people like being teased rather than outright shown nudity in regards to things like Kasumi's waist holes or a glimpse of a guy's stomach. For example I find Jann's 5LR outfit to be much sexier than his Bruce Lee speedo. The tanktop draped over him that slowly gets more transparent as he sweats is better imo than just 'look here he is nearly naked.'

 

[Niitris]

I don't deny that at at all.

And yeah, subtlety is quite underrated.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

Stop. This will not turn into anouther tumblr vs the Internet argument that includes the buzzwords and insults people love to throw around . I mean this as something to study and discuss the deseigns, nothing more.

Anyhow I posted those pictures to show off which particular parts of the body are typically shown off when you try to deseign something more sexy.

when you look at Kasumi's LBF variation you notice the cleavage is exposed same as Momiji, but what really interests me is her hips which have small slits on it that barely show any skin, but where but there to be sexy. my point of that picture was that

Point 1: How much skin shown is neglibale it's more about where it's shown and where the artist can focus your eyes.

Revy is a very interesting case as she's a sexy women that wears revealing clothes, but she she's know for being a hardass rather sex symbol. she doesn't really get laden with a lot of the stigma others do. A large part of this is due to her presentation which treats her as a gun fighter over eye candy. this means she gets many of the same camera angles as a typical Hollywood fighters. the sex is still there, but it's not the focus. an interesting note about this series is that the Author actually makes pornographic Doujin under a different pen name.

Point 2: Presentation makes all the difference

Onto the next two Haseo and Free. They represent what's occurring in male fanservice. Haseo is a character from quite awhile ago and I'm not sure if he was meant to be sexual, but fangirls of anime and JRPGs love an exposed stomach. Its the running deseign theme of the Free video and I remmeber seeing a post of a girl who had gotten a character statue and was obsessing over the way he was leaned back causing the shirt to barely expose his stomache

Based on what I've seen and my personal feeling on the matter shirts rising are oddly enough the equivalent of panty shots. it's a part of the body that isn't supposed to be shown off by itself and rarely seen otherwise. Where as it's perfectly normal to be seen in a bathing suit same as with women's bikkini bottom.

Final point is Raiden was purposely deseigned to attract female gamers, but Ryu wasn't despite both wearing very simular outfits though. the skull suit is actually one of a long list of sneaking suits but it's supposed to be the only one particurly sexual

Except the problem with the main point with Revy for example is that people ALLOW their first impressions to rule them to the point of ridiculousness.
If you want to be honest, if you saw Revy OUTSIDE Black Lagoon and seen her in a doujin(which you pointed out the author actually does make doujins including Revy under a different pen name, same with the Hellsing author, I believe the Ghost in the Shell author...hell, quite a few mangaka do doujin porn under a different pen name), he wouldn't see her as a badass, you would see her as eyecandy and sadly, some people let their first impressions completely judge the character even after they watch the entire series, seeing her literally as nothing else.

Your Haseo example makes sense in context but the Free! one doesn't since it was absolutely made to be pandering male fanservice(see the commercials and everything) from the word go. But again, the pictures and the art itself still sexualizes him to a degree(and especially the picture itself).

For Metal Gear, you hit the point on the head, Kojima SPECIFICALLY made both males AND females be fanservice because that's what he wanted and chose but while with Ryu, his costume WASN'T made for fanservice pandering(and let's be frank, neither is Kasumi's LBF look-alike and honestly the DOA5 default for Ayane isn't either but that's going offtrack) but it does still pander to the fetish of skin-tight leather and it still hits one of the main things women do pander for in guys...the arms.

I do agree with your points and I will try my hardest not to make this into an SJW fest as that's why I aimed for the main core issue I always had with it: The fact that there is enough people to legitimately believe males CANNOT be sexualized.

 

[XVideos]

This shit showed up in my newsfeeds

NSFW

Spoiler

The designer asked the wrong question. It's not about male characters dressing like female characters, it's about whether women would get turned on by male characters who dress like like female characters.

If the designer's goal was to show the ridiculousness of female sexualization, then putting a men in female characteris costume wouldn't do that because sexualization is meant to visually please the opposite sex.

The opposite of female sexualization is male sexualization, and making men dress like women just straight up misses the point.

If women don't find male characters who dress like female characters attractive, then the artist created something no one even likes.

Hawkeye Initiative made male characters dress like female characters so they can use that to create a gotcha moment and criticize female sexualization, but the end result is something no one even finds attractive. They need to read more romance novels to understand how women actually sexualize men.
( http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/ ) click at your own risk

 

[XVideos]

I think the only way to have both male and female sexualization at the same time is to have

straight female/gay male artists exclusively design male characters and
straight male/lesbian artists exclusively design female characters

That way both would be able to apply their fantasies properly.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

@Xhominid The Demon Withinhttp://www.freestepdodge.com/members/xhominid-the-demon-within.5934/
i feel like whether you saw Revy in the show or doujin first really wouldn't matter. ive personally had many occasions where i was reading a doujin and ended up reading the source material because of it. its never affected my view of the characters because i know its completely non cannon. while Revy is clearly said to be sexually activate, im pretty sure it has nothing to do with those characters except maybe Rock. anyhow ive heard this girl spoken with nothing but respect.

My Haseo post was meant to show how fanservice designs dont necessarily mean it was meant for fanservice. its interesting how Japan's designs have gradually become this thing that appeal to both men and women because of the anime culture. they can go towards really masculine characters, but they dont mind more feminine guys or designs that would never work in real life. its a great variety that i feel western games lack. everything that comes from us generally has a basis in reality meanwhile Japan has a basis in...belts.

@XVideos
yeah i saw that picture the other day as well the hawkeye initiative and personally none of it really ever appealed to me and its not really meant to, its meant to protest against current design trends for women. i get what they're saying for the costume design and there are several designs i could personally rant about forever but, but the poses fall completely flat in my opinion i dont like men posing like women it doesn't look sexy or appealing just odd personally. however if women really dislike how they're being portrayed then somebody should probably listen.

anyhow your post reminded me of a very interesting topic that popped up quite awhile ago and it was about an FF male character that received backlash for being too revealing. i was never able to come to a decision really on my opinion of the subject not about whether the redesign was warranted but rather was it better or worse in my eyes.

Spoiler: Mobious

the armor version appears fine to me, but i do find without it it looks rather ridiculous being a body suit slit straight down the side to the thigh.had it stopped at the waist it would have been fine, and maybe they could have added exposure lower somewhere else its just how its all in the same area that im not a fan of. however the altercations to it did take away what made it unique i find it strange they even added a high collar. to me the second design just looked too similar to other JRPG designs at that point.

 

[XVideos]

anyhow your post reminded me of a very interesting topic that popped up quite awhile ago and it was about an FF male character that received backlash for being too revealing. i was never able to come to a decision really on my opinion of the subject not about whether the redesign was warranted but rather was it better or worse in my eyes.

Again, I always refer back to the question. Does his costume turn women on? Since sexualized female costumes already throw out logic out of the window, sexualized male costumes should be able to afford the same thing. But if that costume doesn't turn women on, then the design failed its job because it's not sexy in the eyes of the people it's trying to appeal to.

The 1st thought women have must not be "LOL that looks stupid". It has to be "10/10 WOULD BANG!!!". Once you have that, then you can have a fair comparison.

I mean, it's not like that's difficult to come up with, just look at Magic Mike.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

Again, I always refer back to the question. Does his costume turn women on? Since sexualized female costumes already throw out logic out of the window, sexualized male costumes should be able to afford the same thing. But if that costume doesn't turn women on, then the design failed its job because it's not sexy in the eyes of the people it's trying to appeal to.

The 1st thought women have must not be "LOL that looks stupid". It has to be "10/10 WOULD BANG!!!". Once you have that, then you can have a fair comparison.

I mean, it's not like that's difficult to come up with, just look at Magic Mike.

that a difficult thing to tell since the genders are disproportionate though lets say out of 100 group of gamers 10 are female. if all 10 females say "10/10 WOULD BANG!!!" but all 90 guys say "wtf is this gay shit" then who do you listen to in that scenario?

 

[XVideos]

It depends on whether those 90 guys gay or not. Are straight men qualified to determine the sexiness of man-candies if the they are designed for straight women, gay men, and bisexuals? Sexualization has to satisfy its target audience.

Maybe some straight men watching Magic Mike would say wtf is this gay shit, but they are not target audience so it's fine if they don't get it, and frankly I don't think their opinion should even matter.

I think your test group would make more sense if it's a mix group of straight women, gay men, and bisexuals.

EDIT: unless you mean the sexualised male character is designed for a game with a much wider range of audience in mind, then maybe this male character could be a support character for romance side quest or something. Depends on the target audience of the game, the main character needs to change with that.

 

[grap3fruitman]

That way both would be able to apply their fantasies properly.

Does every game have to appeal to the lowest common denominator? Is there no market for people who like clothing? Every TV show doesn't have to be Baywatch. Regardless, your hiring practices are kinda discriminatory even if well-intentioned so it's not exactly a viable pursuit.

i get what they're saying for the costume design and there are several designs i could personally rant about forever but, but the poses fall completely flat in my opinion i dont like men posing like women it doesn't look sexy or appealing just odd personally.

Maybe you don't like ding-dongs period?* Would it really matter which pose?

that a difficult thing to tell since the genders are disproportionate though lets say out of 100 group of gamers 10 are female. if all 10 females say "10/10 WOULD BANG!!!" but all 90 guys say "wtf is this gay shit" then who do you listen to in that scenario?

Did you ever wonder why the video game demographic composed of almost exclusively males? Could it be because so many games skew heavily towards them?

 

[XVideos]

Does every game have to appeal to the lowest common denominator? Is there no market for people who like clothing? Every TV show doesn't have to be Baywatch. Regardless, your hiring practices are kinda discriminatory even if well-intentioned so it's not exactly a viable pursuit.

Did I ever say every game has to be like that? I don't think you made a fair point.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that you want to clamp it down, while I want to to make sexualization equal opportunity.

I am saying that things should be balanced out. If a game is designed with a large audience in mind and female characters are sexualized, then male characters should also be sexualized as well.
But if characters aren't sexualized, then there's no problem and no one cries sexism, but that's not what I am talking about here.

I said str8 women/gay men should be the ones to design man-candies because gender critics have been complaining that male sexualization designed by straight men is just male power fantasy.
I can see where they are coming from, but I cannot determine the extremely subtle differences between male sexualization for women and male power fantasy for men, so only they can make it happen.

 

[Chapstick]

This shit showed up in my newsfeeds

NSFW

Spoiler

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen lol like mummy penis aside it's a fashion disaster

One interesting thing to me is people seem to equate boobs to dicks as if they're the same level of sexual. Dicks are genitals, boobs are not. Like I see people say there should be dick physics (for the record I wouldn't mind them if they were done subtly like Beowulf in Skullgirls but toned down a smidge more) as if it's the same thing as boob physics but it's not. Pec physics would be the same, dick physics are on a whole other level. And just because the boobs are huge doesn't mean bulges should be huge. Bulges should be huge if girls are giving moose knuckle.

Weird to think about but the most graphic bulge I've ever seen in a video game was from Katamari Damacy which was rated E for Everyone IIRC. Anyone else remember this?

lol

 

[just_me]

Yeah there seems to be the idea that male and female “sexualization” work in the same way, or that that males and females react the same to the same kind of stimuli (visual or other). This might work for some stimuli, but certainly not all.

So all those “look how stupid this looks, if we replace the hot chick with a guy” things miss the point. Replacing a highly attractive female with a average looking guy, put him in a bikini and let him act all feminine and “sensually” eat a burger is just not comparable .

It's not hard to find males that are almost exclusively created by and for a “thirsty” female audience… there is a whole genre of literature for that: erotic and romance novels. And you can't tell me that women do not sexualise males in their “fap fiction”. However the males look nothing like that image from earlier, nor act feminine. Christian Grey is apparently pretty archetypal, the alligator wrestling, rich Neurosurgeon with a wounded bird complex seems to be incredibly common. Surprisingly masculinity get's the straight female motor running and not gender swapping and those guys are by no means mutually exclusive with the male power fantasy.

One interesting thing to me is people seem to equate boobs to dicks as if they're the same level of sexual. Dicks are genitals, boobs are not.

Thank you lol
The equivalent to some panty bulges would be some serious camel toe XD
I'd say the equivalent to boobs are muscles in general, or maybe even facial/chest hair when it's actually considered attractive, which changes every few decades

 

[Chapstick]

Do you think it might have to do with the fact that you don't like ding-dongs period?

You shouldn't assume things like this.

Did you ever wonder why the video game demographic composed of almost exclusively males? Could it be because so many games skew heavily towards them?

I just watched a show (Adam Ruins Everything in an episode about summer fun) that talked about this. Video games started dying around the same time toys started becoming gendered in the 80's (? I think) so when Nintendo tried a revival by putting video games in kids' toy aisles they had to pick a side and they went male. After that point the marketing skewed heavily towards the male demo