System Bad habit or good strategy?: The “no mix-up” mix-up

Darkslay

Well-Known Member
So, this is a subject that has always interested me not only in DOA but modern fighting games in general, you see the term “no mix-up” mix-up is a strategy popularised back in the days of SF3: Third strike and it basically means that in some situations being predictable is more unpredictable than being ambiguous (did that make any sense? lol.)

For example: you have 2 Ryu players that know the mirror particularly well, to a decent extent, 2P Ryu throws a hadouken in the hopes of having 1P Ryu jump in on him, but at the same time he knows his opponent can just simply parry the fireball (the smarter choice) and instead dashes forward following the fireball, however 1P Ryu DID actually jump in and 2P Ryu ended up getting crossed-up by 1P Ryu leading to a full combo that costed him the round.
Now here´s where the intriguing part starts, was 1P Ryu using the so called “strategy”? or did he simply lucked out after not being able to follow an ambiguous setup?.

This is also incredibly true in DOA, a game based around countering and knowing what your opponent is going to do next, but is it really all intentional? or is it a bad habit by players who do not understand a fundamental such as a mix-up?

Here´s an example in a DOA enviorment: Its a Lee against any character, they´re playing footsies, watching their ground the Lee has the life lead and the other player has about 10% left, the Lee player manages to get in and does 66P2K the other player techs and the Lee player goes for 66P again is he going to do 2K again? the other player thinks that would be too obvious and waits for the neutral K which he can throw punish and regain control of the match but what´s that? the Lee player goes for 2K again? the other player techs and the Lee player goes for 66P again and the other player thinking the Lee player is just a nut goes for the low hold, what happens? the Lee player goes for neutral K this time winning him the round.
This raises the question again, lucked out? or smart play?
Another example would be hmmmm.. remember the 3v3 finals back in TFC 2013? where lopedo kept doing DG 6H+K DG 6H+K against MASTER? a lot of people got mad over that while others said it was a completely valid strategy and argued that Manny shouldn´t have held that much, so what does that mean then?

Regardless a very interesting subject that i would like you guys to have some input on, i think it goes hand in hand with something like @His Reverence ´s “You´re Mashy” thread but who knows, i might make more entries in this “series” (i guess lol) as i do have other ideas, regardless, thank you for reading (if you did XD) and have a good one :).
 
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KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
I think it is a valid strategy to just keep doing the same thing over and over again. It's part of the mindgame.

What you described in the Jann Lee example is very familiar to me. For example I play Rig so I tend to do Bending Stance T a lot. After that throw, I have two options: 1. A strike or 2. Another throw (compare it to Dragon Gunner if you find that easier). Most people fall for the same trick two times and then think you're going to pick the other option. So in this case I should do two throws and then and a strike - since they fall for the throw two times, and then they are going to strike me the third time. Same as you described for Jann Lee, where the person would fall two times for 66P2K, but changes strategy the third time and this is why you should change strategy as well. It's about adapting to your opponent's mind.
 

Darkslay

Well-Known Member
Yeah i also consider it a valid strategy even in high level play, but i think is also subjective to the level of skill a player has.

This concept is especially strong in DOA as i mentioned before, being a game of countering and maintaining stuns and it should not be overlooked also shout outs to Honoka players that i´ve seen do 6T from 2 to 6 times in a row XD.
 

Kronin

Well-Known Member
Actually I think that it's a valid strategy part of the mindgame, the element that I really like in fighting games much more than the simple combos (another reason because I particularly like DoA).

Actually I like to use with setups much more simple of what you described where it's neither part of a mix-up but just also a single move repeated: all this not because I don't know that what I'm doing can be unsafe or risky, but just because I'm playing expecting that even the opponent knows it and so hoping to increase the surprise element of the unexpected outcome: look the very end of this match for an example (1:42) http://www.freestepdodge.com/media/ayane-kronin88-vs-phase4-doa5lr-lobby-match.8736/
 
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Darkslay

Well-Known Member
The repetition series huh? XD i see your point and i don´t diss this strategy since i also think is a valid option, like i mentioned before.

Its not something you can rely on at all times, especially if you´re playing the same person multiple times.
 

Kronin

Well-Known Member
The repetition series huh? XD i see your point and i don´t diss this strategy since i also think is a valid option, like i mentioned before.

Its not something you can rely on at all times, especially if you´re playing the same person multiple times.

I agree, to be fair actually I believe that you can't rely on it neither more times in a same match. The point is to try to realize what the opponent is thinking in that moment: for example, if I notice that he is particularly aggressive, I've more chances to be succesfull because maybe he lost the patience or he is trying with all himself to get the victory at cost of lowering the guard/ratiocination. I don't think that it's a case that I was able to perform that x3 with Ayane just at the end of a match that I was winning 2-0.

About the title of the series I like to act silly, there is nothing to do for it xD
 

Darkslay

Well-Known Member
I agree, to be fair actually I believe that you can't rely on it neither more times in a same match. The point is to try to realize what the opponent is thinking in that moment: for example, if I notice that he is particularly aggressive, I've more chances to be succesfull because maybe he lost the patience or he is trying with all himself to get the victory at cost of lowering the guard/ratiocination. I don't think that it's a case that I was able to perform that x3 with Ayane just at the end of a match that I was winning 2-0.

About the title of the series I like to act silly, there is nothing to do for it xD

This is true, i also think this makes mirror matches more interesting as you know what your character can do you just don´t know how the opponent is going to do it.

Oh that´s ok, i think we´re all silly to a certain degree XD.
 

Izuna(x)

New Member
I think it comes down to skill..if one person continuously does something over and over again because that's all they know to do that isn't strategy..if a player has mixed up stuff decently the entire match and eventually gets you to fall for something multiple times because he mind fucked you I would say that is valid
 

Kronin

Well-Known Member
I think it comes down to skill..if one person continuously does something over and over again because that's all they know to do that isn't strategy..if a player has mixed up stuff decently the entire match and eventually gets you to fall for something multiple times because he mind fucked you I would say that is valid

I agree, but theoretically the first case should led to the defeat of the player because the opponent should realize the trend and so to be easily able to beat it: so strategy or less this would be something unsuccesfull.
 

TheRealCoxinator

Well-Known Member
It works wonders against people who think they know what they're doing, for example someone who holds out of instinct or just tries to crush all the time.
 

Darkslay

Well-Known Member
I think it comes down to skill..if one person continuously does something over and over again because that's all they know to do that isn't strategy..if a player has mixed up stuff decently the entire match and eventually gets you to fall for something multiple times because he mind fucked you I would say that is valid

Exactly,the concept is that you make the opponent think for the ambiguous while you go for the simple yet effective, however as you said it takes its due skill to use this strategy properly, you know those people that complain they lost to spammers? it can work both ways really, if the person in question has decent understanding of the game i think its safe to say it was your fault for biting the bait, on the other hand if their skill is not up to par ... well that´s a different thing XD.
 

WAZAAAAA

Well-Known Member
Hitomi's 6T for an entire round
1.0
 

Fiend Busa

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Another factor with doing the same move over and over is muscle memory fucking with you. Happens to me time to time with Busa. Ill be thinking, "I shouldn't do the 4K launcher, its to obvious and I done it a few times. Lets try a sit down." And my brain will be like nope fuck that we doing 4K and I get punished lol.
 

Darkslay

Well-Known Member
Another factor with doing the same move over and over is muscle memory fucking with you. Happens to me time to time with Busa. Ill be thinking, "I shouldn't do the 4K launcher, its to obvious and I done it a few times. Lets try a sit down." And my brain will be like nope fuck that we doing 4K and I get punished lol.

Like the title, don´t let it turn it into a habit as that´s exactly what the opposite escenario would be using this strategy XD.
 

Camel with 2 thumbs

Well-Known Member
if you've found something that works and they can't stop you, why would you mix it up? Do it until they prove to you they wont fall for your predictable ways. While this seems like a very un-DOA mindset to have since this game is designed specifically to stop people from being predictable in their gameplay, sometimes people will just fall for the same stuff over and over again.

case in point, yesterday i was fighting a ryu who was just doing backflip-stance-teleport shenanigans the whole match, and by the third round he pretty much beat using only one move. which was the backflip-stance-high punch-stance- spiny head bash thingie (forgive me for no knowing the names of these moves), while it was an embarrassing loss, i felt like I beat myself more than anything, cause I was like "okay, you've hit me with this move 3 times now, there's no way your gonna do the same thing again" and then he does it again, and there I am looking like idiot getting knocked all over the stage.

Overestimating your opponent, probably the worst thing you can do in this game

case in point again, yesterday I was playing this one guy and I was using Nyo (like i always do) and I hit him with nyo's forward throw, it's like hitomi's forward throw, it does low damage but it leaves you at +9 advantage or something. anyway, I hit this guy with the throw 3 times in a row, by the third time i'm thinking "okay, this time, he's either going to crouch to dodge the throw, or hit a button to beat out my throw, so im gonna use nyo's H+K, which launches on counter-hit" i use the move, my opponent blocks, im at disadvantage, I get strike punished, and im there thinking "R U SERIOUS!?, U WERE JUST GONNA STAND THERE AND BLOCK? COME ON DUDE!"

again, Overestimating your opponent, that'll get you killed quick in this game
 

Darkslay

Well-Known Member
if you've found something that works and they can't stop you, why would you mix it up? Do it until they prove to you they wont fall for your predictable ways. While this seems like a very un-DOA mindset to have since this game is designed specifically to stop people from being predictable in their gameplay, sometimes people will just fall for the same stuff over and over again.

case in point, yesterday i was fighting a ryu who was just doing backflip-stance-teleport shenanigans the whole match, and by the third round he pretty much beat using only one move. which was the backflip-stance-high punch-stance- spiny head bash thingie (forgive me for no knowing the names of these moves), while it was an embarrassing loss, i felt like I beat myself more than anything, cause I was like "okay, you've hit me with this move 3 times now, there's no way your gonna do the same thing again" and then he does it again, and there I am looking like idiot getting knocked all over the stage.

Overestimating your opponent, probably the worst thing you can do in this game

case in point again, yesterday I was playing this one guy and I was using Nyo (like i always do) and I hit him with nyo's forward throw, it's like hitomi's forward throw, it does low damage but it leaves you at +9 advantage or something. anyway, I hit this guy with the throw 3 times in a row, by the third time i'm thinking "okay, this time, he's either going to crouch to dodge the throw, or hit a button to beat out my throw, so im gonna use nyo's H+K, which launches on counter-hit" i use the move, my opponent blocks, im at disadvantage, I get strike punished, and im there thinking "R U SERIOUS!?, U WERE JUST GONNA STAND THERE AND BLOCK? COME ON DUDE!"

again, Overestimating your opponent, that'll get you killed quick in this game

This is were the skill portion of the entire thing comes in, it doesn´t have to necessarily mean you underestimate your opponent, but you have to be able to gauge how quote on quote ´´dumb´´ your opponent is and this is valid for all fighting games as this situations can present themselvesin any of them.
 

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
This is usually what I do whenever I face a new opponent. The odds of you getting a win is still high, and you can test the waters as well, and the other guy might think you a newbie (also if the other person is a newbie, that can't counter the more simple approaches). Just when that happens you pull it up a gear. This usually force the opponent into a state of panic, and he has no idea what you are going to do, while you know exactly what he is going to attempt. Me losing the first round and then completing several "greats" is not uncommon. I am actually astonished of how little this is used in high play in DoA. Then again, if you are "high profile", you don't want to look like a newbie even for a second? Maybe honor gets in the way.

Hitomi's 6T for an entire round
1.0

I did this against an S ranked the other day (following 1-ONE 9H), it worked, even got 3 high-counter.
 

Darkslay

Well-Known Member
This is usually what I do whenever I face a new opponent. The odds of you getting a win is still high, and you can test the waters as well, and the other guy might think you a newbie (also if the other person is a newbie, that can't counter the more simple approaches). Just when that happens you pull it up a gear. This usually force the opponent into a state of panic, and he has no idea what you are going to do, while you know exactly what he is going to attempt. Me losing the first round and then completing several "greats" is not uncommon. I am actually astonished of how little this is used in high play in DoA. Then again, if you are "high profile", you don't want to look like a newbie even for a second? Maybe honor gets in the way.



I did this against an S ranked the other day (following 1-ONE 9H), it worked, even got 3 high-counter.

Your post interested me a whole lot since you used the concept of ´´honor´´ as that is going to be related to another entry in this series, as well as the term of ´´gears´´, i have a theory that consists of what i call ´´the 3 gears in a fighting game´´ (so much quotation XD).

But yes this is true, people don´t actually understand the IMMENSE change online meant to fighting games (something i might talk in the future) the fear of the unknown and the anticipation for a random match is a very valid set of mind and something that can be very detrimental to the outcome of a match as well, you might think you´re good or ´´high profile´´ but is that actually true? very likely not imo.
 
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Russian-chiropractic19

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
depends on the risk associated with it. if the worse you're going to get is a slap on the wrist for them figuring you out then go ahead till it gets stopped, but if its likely to cost you a lot if it fails then you should look to prematurely stop it before it comes to that.
 
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