Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience

This pretty much sums up what the rest of the FGC see's in DOA.

While I agree that everyone wants less guessing involved, I'd say going from 3 or 4 chances to 1 chance is pretty good. Doesn't the CB only give 1 chance? So, it's the same? Either way, the end game is still going to have guessing involved somewhere. I don't see the point in bickering about this any longer.

The issue is more one where the guessing happens. The issue with many is that in DOA, the guessing happes after a "hit confirm." Meaning that your reward for good offense is having to guess. Compare to Street Fighter III, another game that was criticized for having too much guessing due to parries (even UltraDavid quit on the game because of it). The III series was still considered "competitive" because the guessing primarily happens before a combo, during the neutral game - the only time there is guessing after a combo is if the attacking player goes for a reset. Even then however, this split the community, with a good number of players dropping the games (or not playing them at all).

I was with you until about here. He expressed to Team Ninja something to think about, his difference in opinion. He's pushing for something he believes, he shouldn't automatically agree with the others because they're the majority. I'm not saying in THIS example, but one, the majority isn't always correct.

Like the following for example:

The only way to beat a user of frame advantage, should be to hold or sidestepping to avoid it, and you want that to be on any kind of MAJORITY of attack strings? That would become the DEFINITION of a twitch fighter. Please tell me you mean the last hit of a string, because not even Safety Fighter (Virtua) goes that far. I know most people hate holds, but that's insane, especially with free cancel and string delay.

One more reason some people probably have somewhat of a problem with this, is because outside of the global system, the neutral game kind of sucks donkey balls. Just saying. DOA doesn't even have a useful backdash in most cases, and the community wants high damage guaranteed offense. Come on guys.

I mean, honestly, defense in the game has quite a bit of risk, compared to fighting games with strong neutral game. In Virtua Fighter, to compensate for the damage potential, there's not only substantial offensive risk, but also a very strong neutral game to compensate as the defensive side of the game.

I thought it was made clear a while back that CB is also a 1 chance to hold scenario?(Assuming you do the CB move twice or you are Bayman) So I don't see the difference except that you will get more damage with the CB.

Everybody has their own viewpoint of what will make something the best it can be. I'd rather him express his opinion and go against the grain than support something he doesn't believe in, especially if he honestly thinks it's what'd make DOA good, regardless if he's correct or not.

Now, if he's just being a fucker for his own personal reasons, that's a different story altogether.


[/Quote]That is asinine to give frame advantage to everything on block. Having particular moves giving frame advantage and some strings having it in the middle or at the end of them. This of course has to vary from character to character. I didn't think I'd have to explain that, but I guess so.

Holding is not "bad" nor do I "hate" it. However, DOA is the only game with a i0 move that is also a huge comeback factor. So, it for damn sure needs to be controlled. So far TN is doing well in that department, more guaranteed situations that disallow holding will suffice, in the end.[/Quote]

You said that's what you'd want on block. Personally, your entire statement and strings together didn't make sense in the first place. If you're getting blocked the entire time, you deserve to be at disadvantage assuming you've traversed through an entire string. But, let's assume that's not the case.

While DOA3 had good movement, the backdash still left something to be desired compared to the other 3D fighters I've played with any intent to learn anything.

Oh, don't give me that. Personally, I figured you'd were going to go there, so I was prepared.

Make the move two frames slower, block high AND mid, and ignore re-GI's. You now have Soul Calibur IV impacts. Virtua Fighter has reversals as well for specific characters.

Oh, and don't forget Aoi's stance, which, while probably not a zero frame stance transition, isn't exactly slow, and has guaranteed follow-ups.

Point is, is that the DOA reversal isn't that crazy of a mechanic. In fact, to compensate for the quickness, the 4 point counter system, as it's three in standard Virtua reversals, and in Virtua, the speed the strings are coming at you is even slower in most cases than in DOA.

Reversals/Holds aren't really a big deal, and nothing to automatically claim that, even with damage nerfing, holds single-handedly make defense solid. That's beyond unfair to say. As for the neutral game, yes, DOA needs a much better neutral game. I'm tired of wanting to play poke with some characters and getting blown up because I'm -1737394091 on block. It's irritating, but there's a middle ground here, we just have to find it. Personally, I think the middle ground is in blowing up the AWFUL stun system, but I've been told that's probably not possible, so I'm putting that to rest until DOA6.

It blows my mind every time somebody likens any other game's counters to DoA's.

I then realize I will never agree with such a person.

Ya don't say..

So in the DoAD system launch height post-stun depends on the initial hit condition/dmg modifier and not stun threshold? Well that's better than DoA4, but I'd still prefer unified launch height (for a given launcher) post stun. (H)CHit Stun->Launch- setups will do more damage anyway I'm not sure if you really need an extra boost just for landing a Counter Hit. Especially if you stun someone with a HCH you most probably did not read the opponent correctly, you just got lucky while poking around (otherwise going for a direct launch, giving the opponent 0 chances to hold, would be better, no?). The game should not give you (a potential) extra reward for getting lucky...
Well or you went for a safer option, but in that case less reward is appropriate as well.

I think a single CB move per character is fine, it's certainly better than multiple moves that can be used in the same situation. There is this specific situation and the attacker wants to use the CB move, since it's a lot better than the other options in the scenario... the defender knows that, but the attacker knows ... and so on. That's an interesting mind game with educated guesses. If the attacker could use one of three CB moves that lead more or less to the same outcome, the whole thing falls apart... it's just rock-paper-scissors for both players, which is not interesting at all... it's pure guessing.
Although I think additional CB moves at the end of certain strings could be interesting, it obviously should not be possible to free cancel the string and mix-up with the regular CB move (because the stun does not grant enough advantage for the regular CB, the opponent is out of range etc.)

The backdash in DOA5 varies from character to character. However, some characters have a very good backdash (Akira comes to mind) and all characters can guard cancel their backdash.

For the most part, any character that has a sit down stun can use the same setup Bayman has. The problem is that not all CBs are equal and not all sit down stuns are equal. For instance, Kasumi's primary sit down stun (at the moment) is her 66KK. It isn't anywhere near as effective as Bayman's 3K. Also, Christie has one of the slowest CB attacks in the game, which makes it more difficult to use in combos.

All of that is just a matter of balancing, which is still being done. However, I did suggest removing the ability to SE out of sit down stuns. I'm not sure how far that suggestion will go, and it's not a huge concern, but I think the game would be better overall if you couldn't slow escape out of a sit down stun.

Yeah, you shouldn't be able to slow escape out of stuns. Any of them. What's the deal with slow escaping anyway ? What a dumb mechanic, why suddently give players an alternative to defensive holds ? DOA4 was such a crappy game. Shouldn't be able to escape stuns, at all. Oh but then stuns would become overpowered, there are so many of them. Well then, just reduce the number of stun moves. Along with string delay, what's the deal with that ? Dumb mechanic. Let's take that out too.
Oh but then the game becomes VF with counters... but I already have that game on my shelf, I can play it whenever I want to.

Let's just strip down DOA of all that sets it apart so it becomes a pale copy of VF. That'll do some good.

The problem is, alot of what makes DOA unique to most people is also what makes it a terrible competitive fighter.

I have a few questions if you guys dont mind. Are most cb moves mid? Also lets say you max out the stun threshold and you just go for a launch mixup instead. What launch height do you get? If it followed the Doad stuns it would be a Hi counter blow height.

If everybody only has one cb move the mixup would be between that and your best launcher thats not the same hit type as the cb. On stuns that sitdown or crush highs it limits some options. The other stuns at cb time would be a three way mixup that either guarantees damage or they try and hold your cb but you launch them at hi counter height. I could kinda see how that is too much.

So the changes in the buffer system make it possible to back dash cancel into a guard without returning to neutral? That is a major buff to movement if so. If they wanted the game to have more space control it would be nice to see getting hit while backdashing not be a hi counter. Being able to cancel into a guard should remedy this though. I wonder if with the new normal hit launchers could be used for wiff punishment........even though they are few and slow.

Maybe the point of the series is to be a terrible competitive fighter. Yeah I know, it's kinda hard to admit, but think about it for a sec. DOA was all about being a more accessible Virtua Fighter right from the start, just look at DOA1, it was basically a poor man's VF.