Dead or Alive 6 (PC)

Lulu

Well-Known Member
The hardest thing to get used to with hitbox is :7:,:8:, and :9:

These can also be annoying in 2D Games because they just don't give you the time to make sure you input the buttons properly.

I suppose if you wanted to jump forward you could input :4:/:6: first and then :8: but this would be super annoying !!! :mad:
 

NewWestFan

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
These can also be annoying in 2D Games because they just don't give you the time to make sure you input the buttons properly.

I suppose if you wanted to jump forward you could input :4:/:6: first and then :8: but this would be super annoying !!! :mad:
Well for me in 2D games it's less of a problem. Jumping a lot is a bad habit to begin with so when you do it it should be deliberate. In Anime fighters super jumping forwards and back is slick and easy it's basically :268: and Hitbox snaps it out fast as all get out. That being said. Good luck getting off instant dive kicks with Cammy.
 

NewWestFan

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
How is the 4-point hold system a bad thing? It's like everyone and their mom wants their hand to be held, which is annoying.
Personally holds are too easy to do even with the 4-Point system and people throw them out like they're safe anyway. I feel like every hold should be an advance hold input so you have to be deliberate and planned with them.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
Actually he's doing nothing wrong... Keyboards can't accept more than 3 simultaneous key presses and in some cases even 3 are too many...
Ah. One of THOSE issues... Yeah... Using low tier keyboards gives you that issue. There's a specific term for this, nKRO, or N-key rollover. Most keyboards are 2KRO, meaning you can only press any 2 buttons at the same time. Any other buttons simultaneously are not guaranteed to work. So a 2KRO keyboard can have some combinations of more buttons work (3, 4, sometimes even 5), but not every combination is guaranteed.
Most gaming keyboards are at least 6KRO, some are 12KRO and some are NKRO, meaning you can press ALL keys simultaneously and they all work.

Didn't take that into account. Yeah... Either get a controller or a better keyboard...
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Well for me in 2D games it's less of a problem. Jumping a lot is a bad habit to begin with so when you do it it should be deliberate.

In SFV you can jump to your heart's content... lol... it was so problematic they called it Jump Fighter 5. This was what I was practicing last month... Anti-Airs... not just any anti-airs either... I was only using characters with invincible :6::2::3: Anti-Airs. Unlike with other fighting games you need to put in so much more effort into SFV to beat button mashers because of how... uhm... gosh I don't even know how to describe it... the game is just so wrong some how... this is why you see so much jumping and dashing in this game... depending on which character you're playing you kinda just get forced into excessive jumping.... the top tiet characters don't have this problem either because they don't need to jump as much or because they are very good at stopping jumps... Hence why Cammy is EVERYWHERE !!! :eek: not only does she excell at both those things but on top of that she can still jump if she wants to...
 

NewWestFan

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
In SFV you can jump to your heart's content... lol... it was so problematic they called it Jump Fighter 5. This was what I was practicing last month... Anti-Airs... not just any anti-airs either... I was only using characters with invincible :6::2::3: Anti-Airs. Unlike with other fighting games you need to put in so much more effort into SFV to beat button mashers because of how... uhm... gosh I don't even know how to describe it... the game is just so wrong some how... this is why you see so much jumping and dashing in this game... depending on which character you're playing you kinda just get forced into excessive jumping.... the top tiet characters don't have this problem either because they don't need to jump as much or because they are very good at stopping jumps... Hence why Cammy is EVERYWHERE !!! :eek: not only does she excell at both those things but on top of that she can still jump if she wants to...
Haha mashers. Could have something to do with the fact that you can literally mash your way through links and cancels without knowing the correct timing. I don't know enough about SF to talk about why anti-airs are neutered though.
 

ryu_highabusa

Well-Known Member
Personally holds are too easy to do even with the 4-Point system and people throw them out like they're safe anyway.
Agreed.

I feel like every hold should be an advance hold input so you have to be deliberate and planned with them.
That's exactly what Team Ninja did in 1997/1998 going from DOA1 to DOA++ and DOA2 (chart). But console players hated the double-direction and we got the dumbed-down single direction holds that are now way too easy to spam as a result.

nNARzfy.png

Holds in ++/2 required an actual commitment and were dangerous to recklessly throw out. Not like now. Increasing recovery time in 5 helped a little but didn't really solve the problem. It was possible to get a counter-hit on someone spamming counters in ++/2 unlike the "lucky" counters we see now. The triangle system was actually a balanced triangle back in '99, in 2018 it's a right triangle.

How is the 4-point hold system a bad thing?
It's too easy and too hard at the same time. Let me explain...

There's nothing "deep" about memorizing giant lists this:

wadOAlE.png

The key to successfully countering in DOA is to memorize each hit level of each hit of each string.

I've been playing for almost 20 years and I still only have the DOA2's cast partially moves memorized to this day. New players starting out learning to counter have an almost impossible journey in the current system.

Try explaining how to counter to a friend or someone who's never played this game before - it doesn't have to be a gamer - watch them struggle with how needlessly convoluted the system is.

The conversation usually goes like
1 "how do I counter?"
2 "try back and hold"
1 "I did it but it didn't work"
2 "oh, it's different for every attack"
1 "so how can I tell which is which??"​

It's impossible to gauge whether an attack is high or mid visually. Experienced players like you and I are recognizing the animations, not countering based on visuals like one would expect. I need to look up 9K to see what hit level it is so I can counter it, then I need to memorize that for next time. I can do that, yeah, but most people can't or won't.

Changing it to 2-point holds with meter fixes this issue.
Players can tell what moves are high and low just by looking and instead of sacrificing space in your brain for a big list of :high::mid::low::high::mid::low::mid::mid::high::high::mid::high::high::high::mid::mid: nonsense, I sacrifice some meter. Now I have a real reason to manage that meter also.
 
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Lulu

Well-Known Member
Haha mashers. Could have something to do with the fact that you can literally mash your way through links and cancels without knowing the correct timing

Not really... well I mean with Ed & Cammy you can because both their standing medium punch give a crsp ton of frame advantage on hit (Seriously though, why does Capcom like Cammy so much ?) But for characters like Ibuki their links are not only tighter but the hit stop on their medium buttons is so tiny that it kinda forces you to link into the next button even if the attack is blocked... its really annoying.... they should just standardized the Hit stop for all the buttons relative to their strength.

I don't know enough about SF to talk about why anti-airs are neutered though.

Apparently they nerf them because and I quote: "We wanted to give each attack its own distinct use." Or something along those lines.

Quite frankly I think Capcom is just being stubborn in this case because SFV doesn't need six buttons any more so rather than simplifying the controll scheme they just nerfed certain moves to give them arbitrary differences... preserving their six button layout tradition....
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
I don't like the idea of metered holds. It does not solve the issue of the offensive player being 'unfairly' punished for doing the right thing, like putting the opponent in stun. I prefer the method of the deeper the stun, the less damage the hold does and the less advantage it gives.

The last thing DOA needs is to be dumbed down even more. It's already one of the easier 3D fighters out there to get into. Fighting games are not meant to be easy in the first place. And changing the hold system to only 2-point is a disgrace. People being unwilling to find out how to do basic stuff will never be successful in a fighting game. It's like someone wanting to play chess but being unwilling to learn what each piece does. If you're unwilling to do that, do we need to change chess? No we don't. Go play something else.

Yes I get that DOA lacks players. Well actually, that's not really true. If it really lacked players they wouldn't keep making them. The games were obviously successful. They lack competitive players, and well, dumbing the system down is not going to help with that either. Why is it that Tekken has more success in this area than DOA, despite being MORE annoying to get into than DOA?
 

NewWestFan

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
The last thing DOA needs is to be dumbed down even more. It's already one of the easier 3D fighters out there to get into. Fighting games are not meant to be easy in the first place.
I kind of disagree with this. I'm not for his proposal or anything. I think we should go back to the advanced hold inputs universally so you have to think before you throw them out, but Fighting Games aren't that simple to generalize. The staple of a good fighting game to me is one that's easy to pick up and mess around with, and have fun with your friends, but difficult and complex under the surface with many facets that need to be mastered before you can consider yourself "Competitive" at it. Look at all the classics (Aside from KoF with their unnecessarily difficult super motions). Yes as time went on and the games developed within their respective franchises some things became more or less complicated to master at the end game, but someone who has never picked up Street Fighter can pick Ryu and do his Hadoken, Tatsu, SRK, and super with less than an hour of practice. He won't understand the intricacies of Anti-Air or Linking, or any of the other stuff I'm ignorant to but the game on the surface is easy enough for you to pick up and get the gist of. Tekken is the same way, despite what the elitists in the fanbase may think, and all of the Anime fighters are fun day 1 for new players. That's why Smash sells so well and has an even better competitive presence than DOA even though it's even more simple on the surface and carries the stigma of being a "Party Game" to the majority of the FGC. Because the entry skill level is braindead low, but the ceiliing is very high on the other end.
 

grap3fruitman

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
The last thing DOA needs is to be dumbed down even more
How is fixing the most egregious part of the hold system "dumbing it down?" There's nothing "dumbed down" about that suggestion.

It does not solve the issue of the offensive player being 'unfairly' punished for doing the right thing, like putting the opponent in stun. I prefer the method of the deeper the stun, the less damage the hold does and the less advantage it gives.
Your suggestion is completely ridiculous and unfair to the offensive player. You're giving the defensive person unlimited holds. You can spam them all you want and there's no real indication of what's scaling or why. It looks and feels random. I guess if you want DOA4 again, count me out.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
How is fixing the most egregious part of the hold system "dumbing it down?" There's nothing "dumbed down" about that suggestion.
Really? There is nothing dumbed down about a 2-point hold system?

Your suggestion is completely ridiculous and unfair to the offensive player. You're giving the defensive person unlimited holds. You can spam them all you want and there's no real indication of what's scaling or why. It looks and feels random. I guess if you want DOA4 again, count me out.
If you want a 2-point hold system, count me out.

I don't think you understood what I meant. If holds are done properly, the 4-point hold system is fine. I have explained previously how I would like holds to work;

Not a bad idea. I personally prefer the idea of holds having tiers, not based on timing (alone), but based on amount of stun as well. Meaning;

Neutral: Full hold animation + full damage
Light stun: Partial/separate animation + reduced damage
Heavy stun: "Parry" that leaves defender safe but with frame disadvantage.
 

ryu_highabusa

Well-Known Member
Really? There is nothing dumbed down about a 2-point hold system?
No, not at all. You just keep repeating "dumbed down" like saying it over and over it is going to make it true or something.

I don't think you understood what I meant. If holds are done properly, the 4-point hold system is fine. I have explained previously how I would like holds to work;
Oh, I understood what you meant and I think your idea is absolutely terrible. It's making the already mess of a system even messier. I want this mess cleaned up. We've had 4-point holds for 20 years and it hasn't been "done properly" once - let's maybe go back to the drawing board?

Not a bad idea. I personally prefer the idea of holds having tiers, not based on timing (alone), but based on amount of stun as well. Meaning;

Neutral: Full hold animation + full damage
Light stun: Partial/separate animation + reduced damage
Heavy stun: "Parry" that leaves defender safe but with frame disadvantage.
My suggestion is 2-point hold :4::h: (or 7H) and :2::h: (or 1H) that requires meter.

a hold with meter nets you a counter hold / a hold performed while stunned would eat significantly more meter / a hold without meter only nets you a parry

Now the gameplay's about actually reacting to your opponent and managing meter and your other tools instead of memorizing lists.

But again, this is just one suggestion. I really wish they would test it though, even behind closed doors, just so I could know if it works or not in practice.

But honestly, what's the point of the meter right now? It's pretty pointless. Build it up for a dumb canned animation that you totally won't get tired of seeing after the second time. Meet X criteria so you can see Y animation - so just like Power Blows in 5 and Slope Throws in 2U/4? It adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay in its current iteration. We need a reason to have a meter and to care about it.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
No, not at all. You just keep repeating "dumbed down" like saying it over and over it is going to make it true or something.


Oh, I understood what you meant and I think your idea is absolutely terrible. It's making the already mess of a system even messier. I want this mess cleaned up. We've had 4-point holds for 20 years and it hasn't been "done properly" once - let's maybe go back to the drawing board?


My suggestion is 2-point hold :4::h: (or 7H) and :2::h: (or 1H) that requires meter.

a hold with meter nets you a counter hold / a hold performed while stunned would eat significantly more meter / a hold without meter only nets you a parry

Now the gameplay's about actually reacting to your opponent and managing meter and your other tools instead of memorizing lists.

But again, this is just one suggestion. I really wish they would test it though, even behind closed doors, just so I could know if it works or not in practice.

But honestly, what's the point of the meter right now? It's pretty pointless. Build it up for a dumb canned animation that you totally won't get tired of seeing after the second time. Meet X criteria so you can see Y animation - so just like Power Blows in 5 and Slope Throws in 2U/4? It adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay in its current iteration. We need a reason to have a meter and to care about it.
^ First, that reply was to grap3fruitman.
Second, I can already tell you it doesn't work, especially if a hold without meter gives you a parry. It will turn the game into a parry and grab fest, with little else.

As for the current meter, I'll reserve judgment till I use it.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
What you think??

I think retweaking the game so that meter seems useful is the first step to turning this game into SFV... I'm not saying it wouldn't work... I'm saying it's going to seem so arbitrary and forced because theres nothing wrong with they way the game works now...
 
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