[DOA2++] Moveset Editing Project

usagiZ

Well-Known Member
Main Character
Kasumi α
#1
Hey everyone, this is the DOA2++ Moveset Editing Project thread.

This gameplay patch for DOA2U aims to port some content from other DOA games in the hopes of bringing some new life to the gameplay:


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INFO / HOW TOs:


 
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grap3fruitman

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
#3
So this is what it looks like when someone that knows what they're doing mods a DOA game.

This is really impressive and I loved the cosmetic changes too but I'm not at hopeful for any balance changes based on the fact that this modder feels "Ayane is broken."
 
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usagiZ

Well-Known Member
Main Character
Kasumi α
#5
@Mr. Wah
There are no tools yet for modifying the gameplay this extensively, as far as I know. There have been tools in the distant past, at least for the animations, but those were buggy and didn't work 100% of the time.

@grap3fruitman
Ayane isn't "broken", but she had a slope-infinite, which was a little unfair, considering how easy getting behind the opponent is for her.

I don't know how many times I've heard people say that in 2U xbox live back then, but in all seriousness, eliminating slope-infinites needed to happen -- which seemed to be the thing that people hated the most about Ayane.
 

usagiZ

Well-Known Member
Main Character
Kasumi α
#7
So yeah...

No problems with everyone else's slope-infinites then? Just Ayane's is removed?

And is the person just hex editing?
Jann Lee's was also removed. I don't know if there are others.
...well, now I'm not sure if that's a good idea.

Should the slope-infinites be removed?

Anyway, the entire reason for posting this here, is to ask for suggestions for changes...
I'm obviously no DOA mechanics expert.

Yes, It's done by hex editing.
 

Matt Ponton

Owner
Staff member
Administrator
Glen Burnie, MD
Main Character
Bass
Gamertag
Sorwah
PSN ID
Sorwah
Steam
Sorwah
#8
Are you the middle-man relaying information to the hex editor, are you the one hex editing? Have any documentation on what hex code is what?

And no, slope-infinites should not be removed.

If you want to change hold frame data I'd suggest 0(12)32 or 1(12)31.

I'd personally be up to a project that just makes a 3.1 modification to the 2U data, with only a few balance changes to the 3.1 balance.
 

WAZAAAAA

Well-Known Member
#9
I think that changing the game to something that is not an original DoA release by the real developers is a stupid idea. An Ein character with random moves taken from Hayate? Bitch please, that's not DOA, Ein's moveset should stay Ein's moveset and Hayate's moveset should stay Hayate's moveset.
DOAO should be identical to DOA2U in everything (I'm looking at Jann Lee's Dragon Kick being fucking blockable), considering that there was nothing blatantly broken in that game that I'm aware of. Excluding my poor Jann Lee who got hit with the nerf stick for no reason, the game is already in a good state, but it's a shame that there's no tag team mode. I personally dislike it, but others may like it so it would be a good feature.

An awesome idea, like Mr. Wah said, would be to create a mod that makes the game almost identical to DOA3.1, by fixing the few broken mechanics in that game such as Hayate's carthweel, Bass' ground throw and Bass' infinite juggle on corners. That includes the implementation of the guard break, the different "wall smacking" mechanic, all characters, and why not, all maps + Tag Team Mode if possible. That looks like a lot of work.

Oh and btw, what the heck is a slope-infinite? Is it like Jann Lee's PP6P during juggles? That's not even infinite and I'm pretty sure that slopes giving such advantage in juggles is pretty natural and intended for DOA.
 

usagiZ

Well-Known Member
Main Character
Kasumi α
#10
@Mr. Wah
"The middle man". I'll just go with that. :)
Documentation doesn't exist at the moment for moveset modding or animation porting.
I like the idea of modding the 2U data to be a 3.1 clone with a few balance changes, but I'm not sure that's possible at the moment. It's what was set out to be done in the first place, but there were/are tons of roadblocks. Like WAZAAAAA said, It would mean adding guard break, guard crush, changing the wall smacking mechanic, etc. Stage porting already exists, but without wall collision detection.

@WAZAAAAA
I don't understand the dragon kick nerf either.
Hayate and Ein already share tons of moves. Move porting between characters happens a lot, behind the scenes, and if you could just see the amount of unused animations, you'd...actually you probably wouldn't be surprised at all.

It's easy to revert DOAO characters to their DOA2U state -- If that's what you want. It could probably be done with a simple file swap.

The slope-advantage juggles, and corner jugges are intended in DOA, but they certainly aren't supposed to last until the combo limit of 30 hits...
 

Matt Ponton

Owner
Staff member
Administrator
Glen Burnie, MD
Main Character
Bass
Gamertag
Sorwah
PSN ID
Sorwah
Steam
Sorwah
#11
Guard Breaks + Guard Crushes wouldn't be a priority, just the frame advantage they would give is applied on guard.
The Cartwheel's broken-ness is tied into the looseness of the Free Step Dodge system. However, I'd rather have the FSD system loose and removing Hayate's cartwheel anim entirely, than keeping the anim and nerfing the FSD.

Bass' pickup isn't a problem either, neither is his corner infinites. His only major changes I'd do would be to make 66K + on guard, his 9P9K / 9K not relaunch, and that'd be it.
 
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usagiZ

Well-Known Member
Main Character
Kasumi α
#12
That's a really good idea. I think that could be done.
Is the DoA3 frame data in the wiki for 3.1? If so, that's what'll be used to make changes.

The list of things that are currently not seamlessly portable is as follows:
1. Throws
2. Holds
3. DoA3 attack properties (backflip when hit, guard crush, etc)
There might be more things, but they haven't been tested.

More things that haven't been tested extensively yet are:
1. tweaking the FSD system
2. tweaking the hold mechanics.

Also, there's currently a limit as to how many moves can be added to each character. :(
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#15
Interesting.

I agree with @WAZAAAAA, though I don't feel it necessary to "bitch please" at you, lol. The reality is that while you feel Ein is an incomplete character, that is because where he ended, Hitomi picked up. That being said he still carries his own moves that outclass Hitomi's in a lot of cases (4K, 6P+K, 3K, etc.). There's only two moves that Ein would really even deserve from Hayate and that's 9PP (6PP for Ein if he had it) and 1K2K. If he were to get anything else, it'd be 2K3K which would be the Hitomi move from DOA4. I say this because as it is, 2KK is weak as a mix-up even though it's frame advantage on block. He doesn't need 2K3K though.

H3PP from Hayate is no where near a Karate type strike or motion. Nor is 4PP. Those moves have a certain flow and it doesn't fit Ein. So like I said, if anything 9PP should be considered as well as 1K2K. Another good move would be 4P2KK which would be Hitomi's 8PKK (DOA5) or 44P2KK (DOA4). This should be a guard break for 0 to -2 btw to give him space and demand the acknowledgement and respect.

I like what you've brought to our eyes here... though for what it's worth, I wish this was DOA4 that was being modded with the holds being tweaked to what they are in DOA5U so that at least... that's just my dream though (obviously there's other issues like mega crushes, messing with the and stripping the OH properties for some, and other things... but that's just me).
 

usagiZ

Well-Known Member
Main Character
Kasumi α
#16
Lol, Thanks @TakedaZX . Those were some nice suggestions. I do agree with the attacks not fitting Ein. Those attacks were added simply for demonstration, but they're not staying. Ein could use some mixups, though -- and the absence of a 2F+K was a glaring issue, at least, in my opinion.

Actually, my favorite in the series was DOA4. That being said, I don't want this mod to be anywhere near the mechanics of DOA4, because, like you - and many others have pointed out, it had serious issues.

It would be great if the developers would just make a DOA3U, but I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

@Tenryuga Hey, thanks for the interest. Like @Mr. Wah said, there are only a few system differences and a few move property differences between 2 and 3, but there were enough differences to make them feel completely different.

To sum up the differences in tl:dr format:
Defensive play was favored in 2, with the holds doing massive damage and most moves being unsafe and punishable.
Offensive play was more favored in 3, with more things being critical stuns and less moves being unsafe and punishable.
 
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TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#18
I like DOA4's lack of guaranteed damage for one reason. The constant ability to hold out of a situation gave the player an incentive to mix-up and use everything at their disposal... so it wasn't likely that you'd see the same thing in a combo.

Frankly I love it, especially for the 3K sitdown stuns.

But like I said, it seems like usually I'm one of the only ones to find DOA4 playable.
 

grap3fruitman

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
#19
I'd personally be up to a project that just makes a 3.1 modification to the 2U data, with only a few balance changes to the 3.1 balance.
While I <3 3.1, I think this is a little boring of a route to take. I'd go further than just remaking 3.1 and improve everyone even further. Matt just wants to nerf Gen Fu. =P

It would mean adding guard break, guard crush, changing the wall smacking mechanic, etc.
It should be relatively easy to add guard breaks and crushes to DOAO. The animations should already be in the game since DOA2U was built on top of DOA3. It's just a matter of figuring out what the proper variables to trigger the reaction on guard are. We were able to figure it out in DOA4 (and I think in DOA3).

It's easy to revert DOAO characters to their DOA2U state -- If that's what you want. It could probably be done with a simple file swap.
It wouldn't be as simple as a file-swap. In DOA2U, the files for move properties, animations and whatnot are split into three different files. They combined it into one file per character in DOAO. I'm not sure if the contents are 1:1 but I don't believe they are and that the data's rearranged as well. It's been a while since I looked into it though.

The slope-advantage juggles, and corner jugges are intended in DOA, but they certainly aren't supposed to last until the combo limit of 30 hits...
They absolutely are. You have two enemies at all times in DOA: your opponent and the stage. If you aren't paying attention to both at all times, you deserve to be severely punished. That's what stages used to play such a huge importance in DOA. If I'm playing DOA3, you bet your ass I'm doing everything I can to stay away from the top of the slope on the snow stage and get out of the corner on the dojo stage.

I like DOA4's lack of guaranteed damage for one reason. The constant ability to hold out of a situation gave the player an incentive to mix-up and use everything at their disposal... so it wasn't likely that you'd see the same thing in a combo.
This is absolutely 100% factually inaccurate. What is my incentive to mix up attacks in DOA4? They're ALL bad. So I don't want to attack period, much less "mix up" things. It's a chaotic mess. It's really, definitely a random game.

What's my incentive to mix up attacks in DOA2/3? I have good options. A smart opponent knows what those good options are, so now I can't stick to them 100% because he or she is expecting X, Y or Z. It's an educated guess versus the chaos that is DOA4.

Do you see the difference? Do the see why the community hates DOA4 for this reason?
 

usagiZ

Well-Known Member
Main Character
Kasumi α
#20
@grap3fruitman I really like the idea of just making everyone better. I started off with the idea of making a 3.1 clone, but I realized, like you said, it would be the boring route. With the ability to completely (well maybe not completely) remake everyone at our fingertips, we should do something amazing with that. I saw the "NinjaAss5" videos years ago, and it was pretty impressive. was that you? :)
I thought it was going somewhere, but I didn't hear news about a full DOA4 gameplay mod -- which would have been my dream come true.

Edit: Wow, I just realized how preachy the "we should do something amazing with that" sounds...

Yes, doa2u was built on top of doa3, but they removed most of the unnecessary doa3 animations. D:
It is definitely 1:1 DOAO and DOA2U, at least for animations and triggers. It's been tested. It is, after all, a port of DOA2U. The only differences are the models...and the sounds?

I have to disagree with the popular: "It's a chaotic mess" opinion of DOA4. It's not like you can just do whatever and win. You still have to know what you're doing. It was really mind-game heavy, which I think actually takes more skill than memorizing and robotically executing a guaranteed damage string -- and it's definitely more fun.

@TakedaZX My favorite thing in DOA4 was the crushing. The wakeup-kicks weren't even 100% safe, as each character had specific attacks that could crush them (important if you don't want to hold). It was very technical and, admittedly, a bit gimmicky -- but It was the only DOA that had that as a viable option. In the older games, only a few characters could reliably crush wakeup kicks, and I'm not even sure wakeup crushing exists in doa5u... The tech and frame traps were pretty fun, too. I think I'm probably one of the few that actually used them.

Edit2: Would ground bounce mechanics be something everyone's interested in? It was in it's infancy stages in DOA3.1, and became a monster in 4 -- but it seems to have become a great tool for certain characters.
 
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