DOA5 and Sexualization: Too Much?

[werewolfgold]

Yes, ladies and gentlemen. THIS IS THE TOPIC YOU'VE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR!!

*fanfare*

I know some of you probably immediately rolled your eyes when you saw this topic (couldn't stay away, could you? ). But, I created this topic because I think that there is legitimate discussion to be had here. Over the past year or so, I've seen all of the various comments that people have posted on the subject here and elsewhere and things sometimes got a little heated. Arguments were started. Threads were locked. The end was nigh. Et cetera, et cetera.

Anyway, I do want to have a focused talk about it because now I've seen multiple people in varying places bring up the idea that the sexualization is perhaps worse than it has ever been, worse than DOA2, 3, or 4. (Maybe everyone can agree on DOAX/DOAP being the pinnacle on that front, but just comparing the strict fighting game entries.) This would be ironic seeing as that whole possibility of "toning it down" happened in the first place for DOA5. Yes, we know that they reversed on that point due to fan backlash (Japanese fan backlash? Western fan backlash? Both?). But, have they taken it too far in the other direction now? Past a "line" that they hadn't crossed in the other fighting entries in the series? I think a good number of people think so. But, there's another group that's perfectly fine with it. Where exactly is that "line", anyway?

Spoiler: Tell me more about the situation...

Dead or Alive continues to be the whipping boy of sorts whenever people bring up females being poorly represented in video games.

Back when DOA5 was just starting for instance, an example of a response to them doing a 180 on toning it down...

Spoiler

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6361-Monster-Boobs-And-Plastic-Children

DOA was recently mentioned briefly on the Colbert Report (in a segment on Gamergate of all things)...

Spoiler

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/ladjef/gamergate

Team Ninja and DOA even get shoutouts in articles and videos talking about and defending Bayonetta in an "at least Bayonetta isn't that game" kind of way.
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/10/femme-doms-of-videogames-bayonetta-doesnt-care-if.html
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9814-Its-Okay-To-Like-Or-Not-Like-Bayonetta (Yeah, Jim Sterling again. But, you get the point.)

Whether you think these people are being fair or not, the fact remains that these seem to be the types of things that many people think of when they think of DOA. More so than other fighting games (maybe Soulcalibur and Skullgirls catch flack every now and again). I've seen comments from fans that basically claim that DOA's number one priority is boobs and has always been boobs and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

TN perhaps had opportunities to head this off, especially in recent years, but for better or worse, they didn't. It could be said that they upped the ante even by continuously releasing things like nurse outfits, maid outfits, and towels. Maybe it could be said that the copypasta and fetish-y nature of the outfits is fueling the idea that the female characters are just dress up dolls for male enjoyment. It also doesn't help that the males are rather categorically ignored in basically all marketing aspects, sex appeal or otherwise.

And then that Game Informer thing happened recently regarding the DLC...

Spoiler

An exchange between Tom Lee (TN Creative Director) and @EMPEROR_COW occurred on Twitter recently where Lee insinuates that even he thinks that what they've been doing is a little much.
https://twitter.com/kalchi/status/532700084547633152

Even Tomonobu Itagaki seems dissatisfied with the direction that DOA5 took in regards to how the females are being represented.
https://www.facebook.com/tomonobu.i...d=1487640914833355&offset=0&total_comments=47
https://www.facebook.com/CKKati/posts/773070409419958 (I guess he also said some of this, though I'm not sure what all is a quote from him or what part is the poster's own thoughts. Itagaki did "like" the post, however.)

We can add that to the stream of FB posts (ranging from civil to rage) about the sexualization and the current DLC situation which I'm sure people are somewhat aware of. Now, DOA5 is the first game to occur in the golden age of continuous DLC releases. Could the argument be made that we would have gotten the same thing in the past if they could have? (If Itagaki is to be believed, then perhaps not.)

We know what sells. And apparently it's boob mousepads. And while some people have facepalmed at the gravure videos and fetish DLC, there are some fans that wouldn't care if everybody fought naked and some want the pole dancing back in the game. I'm sure naked pole dancing would just make someone's day. Hell, I've seen posts around in the past that saying that they should just remove the guys from the game and that they would never buy anything relating to the guys in terms of DLC. I've also seen some saying that TN should get out of the fighting game business and just make an H-game if this current status quo is what they really want.

Even without the DLC, DOA5 is perhaps the first game to market the lose poses, camera mode, and movie viewer in such a lascivious way.

Spoiler

And there seems to be kind of a difference between the media sections we have for main site of DOA5 and for previous games (though that could just be a byproduct of DLC).
http://teamninja-studio.com/doa5/ultimate/us/home.html#movies
http://teamninja-studio.com/doa5/ultimate/us/home.html#screenshots

...compared to, say...
http://teamninja-studio.com/doadimensions/us/

And, then, you know, the "softness engine" and the various videos of it for Last Round happened during Tokyo Game Show.

But, it must be said that they've also been supporting the tournament "hardcore" scene more so than ever. Does that cancel everything out? I dunno. I've rambled on for long enough. I suppose the TL;DR version boils down to a couple of questions for discussion.

Is DOA5 really worse than other DOAs in terms of sexualization and has the current TN gone too far with it? Their DLC costumes do seem to be making them money, but are they actually worsening themselves in the eyes of the public? Do they have any alternatives if they wanted to make an extra buck? Is Team Ninja on the best path? Should they be doing more to change their and DOA's public perception?

And perhaps a more interesting question (and why I really created the topic): Has the game crossed a line for you personally in terms of sexualization? Hypothetically, let's say moving into DOA6, how would you balance it out or where would you draw the line?

I have my own thoughts, but I'll hold off until I see some other responses. I did create this topic in hopes of interesting discussion, so any tomfoolery or vitriol will not be tolerated. But, maybe this can serve as a lightning rod for getting some things in regards to this subject off of everyone's chest.

Be tactful and respectful. I will lock this topic my-damn-self if I think it's going down the drain.

Spoiler: Don't you test me...

 

[Malibu]

To be short, because i've had this conversation with anyone ever that i've had to explain when i bring up DOA or that i play it. We live in a society of oversensitivity. Period. you can't do/say/show anything without ruffling someones feathers. People take a ant hill and turn it into a mountain. This has been DOA's " thing" since the start but now that everyone looks WAY too much into things suddenly it's a " outrage!" " it's just too much oh my god i can't belive this"

Really? Its obvious TN core audience for these things are people that like it. Anime/manga fans that are used to their fanservice. I dont' mind it at all it's fun i love it. Show's and movies these days are wild with sexuality, But do we aim our torches at Hollywood? No of course not let's just aim bullets at the Video Game Industry for doing completely normal things just like everyone else.

Fact is, I think everyone needs to get the sticks out of their butts and stop being crybabies.

Someone please tell me, why it's ok for there to be grotesque violence, ripping off heads and bloody messes. But a pair of boobs..makes people go wild.

This video should wrap things up. It all comes down to cultural differences, we need to spend more time asking why and finding our own answers instead of mindlessly reacting when we see big boobs on a picture

Mali Out!!!

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

I play a completely nude character (who has a c/p costume, but whatever). There's a point made about the West going apeshit because we don't understand the value of sexuality! "OMG! Sideboob! Ban this shit!" (And I needn't get into the gender war stuff) However, whether we understand it or not (we don't, but they probably don't get our fascination with violence) I think they did mess up with the tag. "I'm a fighter!" That's like playing CoD and saying "I'm a lover!" *shrugs*

I think fans are just overall sick of the DLC - regardless of what is released, but releasing more skimpy outfits doesn't exactly help matters either.

 

[Goarmagon]

To be short, because i've had this conversation with anyone ever that i've had to explain when i bring up DOA or that i play it. We live in a society of oversensitivity. Period. you can't do/say/show anything without ruffling someones feathers. People take a ant hill and turn it into a mountain. This has been DOA's " thing" since the start but now that everyone looks WAY too much into things suddenly it's a " outrage!" " it's just too much oh my god i can't belive this"

Really? Its obvious TN core audience for these things are people that like it. Anime/manga fans that are used to their fanservice. I dont' mind it at all it's fun i love it. Show's and movies these days are wild with sexuality, But do we aim our torches at Hollywood? No of course not let's just aim bullets at the Video Game Industry for doing completely normal things just like everyone else.

Fact is, I think everyone needs to get the sticks out of their butts and stop being crybabies.

Someone please tell me, why it's ok for there to be grotesque violence, ripping off heads and bloody messes. But a pair of boobs..makes people go wild.

This video should wrap things up. It all comes down to cultural differences, we need to spend more time asking why and finding our own answers instead of mindlessly reacting when we see big boobs on a picture

Mali Out!!!

You more or less pulled my thoughts out of my head. I do believe that some attention should be payed to the guys, the game balance and netcode but honestly I am sick of seeing this game being scapegoated because some academic simps feel uncomfortable with some half naked girls beating the crap out of each other. The idea of "suspension of disbelief" is one that goes over these peoples head like a basketball in the 4th quarter of a Lakers game.

Ultimately, This is a part of a much bigger problem with PC people who want to nerf free speech but I think
that goes beyond the scope of your thread.

EDIT: that video was on point too.

 

[Doa_Eater]

You more or less pulled my thoughts out of my head. I do believe that some attention should be payed to the guys.

Can you sell these male characters to a specific (fighting games fans) audience? Ok let me be more specific and use an example i\ll randomly pick Zack and you sell me this character to play with the idea that i play Bruce and Raven in Tekken and Sagat and Adon in Street Fighter. Go!

 

[Goarmagon]

Can you sell these male characters to a specific (fighting games fans) audience? Ok let me be more specific and use an example i\ll randomly pick Zack and you sell me this character to play with the idea that i play Bruce and Raven in Tekken and Sagat and Adon in Street Fighter. Go!

That's easy man, You simply have to make them look cool and do cool shit. It worked beautifully with Ryu Hayabusa and Leon. If they gave just a few more fucks they could do it with the rest of the guys(and girls). Had they gave a few more fucks they could have made the game about ninja robot zombie and the scientist corpsefucker rapist girl work too. I liked the voice acting in that game a lot. I hope they try it again and make it play somehwat like a NG game and more importantly not like shit.

 

[werewolfgold]

Really? Its obvious TN core audience for these things are people that like it. Anime/manga fans that are used to their fanservice. I dont' mind it at all it's fun i love it. Show's and movies these days are wild with sexuality, But do we aim our torches at Hollywood? No of course not let's just aim bullets at the Video Game Industry for doing completely normal things just like everyone else.

Fact is, I think everyone needs to get the sticks out of their butts and stop being crybabies.

Someone please tell me, why it's ok for there to be grotesque violence, ripping off heads and bloody messes. But a pair of boobs..makes people go wild.

You do realize that some people aren't okay with over-the-top violence, right? Jack Thompson's heyday was not all that long ago. And it has definitely been talked about over and over again in America due to how violent things are there in general.

There was even an instance somewhere in Scandinavia I think where a dude thought his kids were becoming too desensitized to violence and war by playing CoD and the like, so he took them over to Israel to see some actual destruction. The kids supposedly lost their appetite for the game afterward. But, I digress.

And, movies have already had to deal with the torches. Now, it's video games' turn. lol

This video should wrap things up. It all comes down to cultural differences, we need to spend more time asking why and finding our own answers instead of mindlessly reacting when we see big boobs on a picture

Mali Out!!!

Ehhhh... Speaking as someone who is also in Japan, I feel like that video ignores some very hard truths about how women are often viewed and treated here. And values can and do bleed into media portrayals. But, people are indeed slightly more cavalier about sex and things related to it in Japan compared to say, America.

Yes. We do need to ask why. The answer may not be exactly what that dude said in the video...

 

[Malibu]

Think you missed the point of my post. Also did i ever say everyone was ok with over the top violence? No 100% of everyone likes 100% of everything. Doesn't change the fact that it's more acceptable than sexual issues. Can we not go into the whole " woman are portrayed as -insert angst here- topic. its' been debunked for a while now. It's not making women out to be less capable, it's not saying women aren't strong. as a person that strongly believes in women's rights and a defender of women's equality to everyone else I just think this conversation is going to go no where. because it just comes down to Conservative people vs non conservative. whereas you don't like too much skin, others do. With that being said i'm gonna take my leave from this thread because it's just beating a dead horse on something that's never going to ever have a 100% conclusion.

Tata, good luck with the thread.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

^ See? I didn't go into that either cause we get that mess over here, too!

@werewolfgold: We're not stupid: we know not everybody like this and that, but somebody does - this is why this and this and that. But, you did bring up a point about how it speaks to and about culture! All the OTT violence here because America is a very violent nation; however, just cause it anime (cartoons for us) if there's violence in it (the "FV" descriptor over here, then there's "V" for anything over "PG" - in lots of cases, the G rating should have the descriptor, but doesn't. Meanwhile, D, S or V could be in anything PG or greater, I'm nowhere near "MA", but you betcha: South Park anybody?)

So, okay, you being Japan, like sex; I, being America, like violence! That's just how it is! The complaints from the lot over here come from not understanding their own culture; therefore, they blame the "mirror" for showing the ugly reflection. IOW, society blames media when in reality it's society that the freakin' problem! I'd say the same about Japan or any other society, too.

Ironically, enough, fans say the evil, greedy companies are the problem for feeding us shit; yet, we keep eating it up! Who's fault is it exactly?

I used the analogy of a robber who gives a victim candy! Everyday, he tells his recipient to leave his or her cash on the front porch. The recipient obliges and gets candy. This goes on for six days. On the seventh, he then asks for his buyer to step outiside as he has a surprise and tells the recipient to close its eyes. An exchange is made. "Wait! This isn't candy!" says the recipient. The robber says, "Yes, it is!" and runs off! Three days later: the recipient is found dead! Why? The robber gave her some "Shit-flavored candy!"

What is the moral here? Oh, wait! That's right!

 

[Kodachi]

Sexuality is fine, unoriginality, color swaps, over and over for the sake of making money from sexualization alone is just pure lazyness.
here some examples of what exactly pisses me off:

Spoiler

none of them are Japanese highschool students this makes no sense and tells me nothing about the characters

this was just sad..

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

<----^ Heh, did you see MY costume? 10 years, no DLC and I get a stolen one? Dafuq?!

You have the santa costumes, too! Btw, did they steal that from Mileena's third outfit in MK9? (Although Ryu is wrapped from head to toe)

 

[Kodachi]

<----^ Heh, did you see MY costume? 10 years, no DLC and I get a stolen one? Dafuq?!

You have the santa costumes, too! Btw, did they steal that from Mileena's third outfit in MK9? (Although Ryu is wrapped from head to toe)

that's understandable, Alpha 152 cant even wear clothes they have to be generated from her own body.
There's no excuse for Lisa however

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

that's understandable, Alpha 152 cant even wear clothes they have to be generated from her own body.
There's no excuse for Lisa however

While I appreciate the humor, it's still bullshit! And her outfit is a stolen one hands down! 10 years? There's no excuse for that! Should've just left her naked! *smh*

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

You do realize that some people aren't okay with over-the-top violence, right? Jack Thompson's heyday was not all that long ago. And it has definitely been talked about over and over again in America due to how violent things are there in general.

There was even an instance somewhere in Scandinavia I think where a dude thought his kids were becoming too desensitized to violence and war by playing CoD and the like, so he took them over to Israel to see some actual destruction. The kids supposedly lost their appetite for the game afterward. But, I digress.

And, movies have already had to deal with the torches. Now, it's video games' turn. lol

Before I get to my thoughts, I'm just gonna address this...

We are not talking about Scandinavia, we are talking about The United States of America, where you have people cheer when Joel blew off someones head to bits in an E3 demo of The Last of Us. A country where you have people whine more about a segment of gameplay that was removed but can only be restored by hacking devices, yet ONLY bring up violence in video games itself when something horrible has happened and it can be linked due to drama BS.

Otherwise, I've seen more people bitch about the fanservice in Skullgirls, DOA and Arcana Heart stopping them from playing the game than the violence and gore turning them off from Hotline Miami(hell, people raged MORE at the sequel for DARING to imply rape), The Last of Us and Mortal Kombat.

Now back to my actual response to the thread itself, despite how I always stated about the fanservice...there is limits, but I honestly believe DOA has not really hit it at all.
Combined with the latest interview saying that TN DOES know whats going on out here and how everyone sees it and even internal disputes over if it's too much means that they themselves know that they are crossing a thin line.

Hell, I'll be completely stupid if I stated that it's due to how DOA operates that it's not an easy target for others to choose how misogynistic gaming is or how female characters should not be(Hell, Chesire Cat Studios, a Youtube Channel I subbed, used it as such as an example when they was covering the feminist craze and whether or not gaming is sexist 3 different times), BUT, I still do not see at that level and to their credit, they also know that it's every other fighting game has the exact same issue and its not just DOA, but it's the easiest target to show.

In the end, I never came to DOA BECAUSE of the fanservice, but I'll be stupid to say that it is not it's identity nor do I want them to discard it because. To me, I do wish there is more...conservative costumes for both males and females to balance out the skimpiness and on DOA6 actually do more effort to expand on the characters more. DOA5 was a start, but I honestly believe they must continue on and sooner or later, this will finally start to die down with time.

 

[TLEE SAID THIS:]

I'll be the guy to say that, yes, I do enjoy DOA's sexuality, but to say that it is a problem for the series is ridiculous. DOA's sexuality is what gives the series an identity, and if it were to lose it then it would just be another ho hum 3D fighter. Has it gotten to a point to where it's too much? You got to be joking. I see way more sexuality on TV, advertisements, and in real life.

I've played games showcasing decapitations, gun violence galore, and murder with utmost brutality, yet God forbid a fighting game where the girls show a little bit of cleavage. If it's seriously offensive to some people, then they're just being naive and hypocritical. Seriously, a game depicting two individuals kicking the crap out of each other, yet nudity is the problem?

The only problem I have is that there is too much focus on the female cast. For God's sake, TN give the guys banana hammocks. Jesus.

 

[werewolfgold]

Before I get to my thoughts, I'm just gonna address this...

We are not talking about Scandinavia, we are talking about The United States of America

Well, are any and all complaints from Americans? Surely not everyone on this site here is American. I just brought it up America since that's what I'm familiar with.

Think you missed the point of my post. Also did i ever say everyone was ok with over the top violence? No 100% of everyone likes 100% of everything. Doesn't change the fact that it's more acceptable than sexual issues.

Sorry, I didn't quite mean it like that. What I meant is that some people feel strongly enough about it to go on "crusades" so to speak. Like some would say some people are going on "crusades" now with sexualization. I agree that violence is more acceptable in America.

Can we not go into the whole " woman are portrayed as -insert angst here- topic. its' been debunked for a while now. It's not making women out to be less capable, it's not saying women aren't strong. as a person that strongly believes in women's rights and a defender of women's equality to everyone else I just think this conversation is going to go no where.

Since we keep hearing about it so often, perhaps some think that it hasn't been debunked. Also, note that I didn't use the word "objectification" anywhere, adding the implication that the women aren't capable. But, sexualization implying that sex appeal is the number one characteristic and it being what really matters in the end. I think people having gripes about women being portrayed as less capable is a related, but not necessarily the same issue.

Tata, good luck with the thread.

What? Leaving already? THE FUN IS ONLY BEGINNING!!!

 

[JKT]

Just for those interested in reading further opinion by the staff, here's an excerpt of what Tom Lee has to say about this very subject in this new article:

http://venturebeat.com/2014/11/15/b...e-fgc-sexual-fantasy-and-the-future-part-1/2/

Spoiler: In the West, the games industry is going through an extremely volatile time when it comes to sexuality and gender representation in games. Dead or Alive is one of the medium’s prime examples of females being overtly sexualized. Is this controversy on Team Ninja’s radar? If so, what’s your viewpoint on these issues?

Lee: Gender equality, misogyny, gamer gate are all industry topics/issues that we are certainly aware of and paying close attention to.

As a fighting game, our position on Dead or Alive is that we are creating female characters in an obvious fantasy setting where they compete with other male and female characters using extraordinary abilities. They are each strong and unique in their own individual way. And they are no less powerful than any of their male counterparts/opponents.

So, if we’re going to showcase strong female fighting characters in a game, why not make them look beautiful as well? Obviously, beauty is a subjective thing and everyone has their own opinions or interpretations of it. And that opinion of beauty also changes and varies from time to time and from culture to culture. We choose to represent our fantasy female characters in the manner in which we’ve become notable for.

But, we also don’t feel that we are demeaning women by doing so and we certainly don’t condone that type of attitude or behavior. We want to portray our female characters as strong, sexy, confident and attractive fighters.

Sure, some people may find our presentation of this notion in poor taste or even juvenile. Even within our own team, we have our differences in opinion about what is tasteful or appropriate. And we’re well aware of our critics who continue to accuse us of objectifying females.

However, we as well as most of our fans around the world don’t share the same sentiments as our critics. We are creating video game characters in a fantasy setting. Their actions, aesthetics and overall visual presentation is more than obviously set in a light-hearted, over-the-top, candy coated universe. The dissimilarity from REAL life women, situations and settings should be pretty apparent as soon as you start our game. And we feel most gamers in this day an age are sophisticated enough to make this distinction quite easily.

 

[Argentus]

The sad part is, aside from Tina and Nyo's win/lose poses, there's nothing really that sexual in DOA.

It was the CONSTANT STREAM of fetish dlc packs that skewed the perception.


Again, I never understood DOA being percieved as "the sexual fighter". Really? I've played King of Fighters, and Soul Calibur, which both come across as WAYYYY more sexualized, and I'm not just talking Ivy and Mai having big boobs.

Compared to those two, plus other games like Girl Fighter or whatever that XBLA game was, and Skullgirls, DOA isn't sexual at ALL (DLC fetish packs and gravure videos notwithstanding.)

Also, even on the gravure...i bought Mila's, and there's nothing sexual there, either. She rolls over twice, crawls forward and sits up. That's it.

 

[werewolfgold]

Again, I never understood DOA being percieved as "the sexual fighter". Really? I've played King of Fighters, and Soul Calibur, which both come across as WAYYYY more sexualized, and I'm not just talking Ivy and Mai having big boobs.

Kind of side-tracking my own topic, but it may be good for comparison's sake. Would you care to elaborate? I've played all of the mainline KOF's and I can't think of anything too egregious that isn't Mai or maybe King and Yuri's shirts getting burned off (I mean, if they did that for all of the Art of Fighting characters, then okay. But, they didn't). Soulcalibur..., well yeah. I think that there's a difference in long term marketing that separates them from DOA, though. I'll go into that when I make my long-winded post later.

 

[Yurlungur]

If you really do think about it, the root of all these problems are the awful dlc and gravure videos
If these two problems ended up getting fixed then that would be less of an issue