WAZAAAAA
Well-Known Member
k
ur mumCome On, Sweetness, you know every character needs some sort of Gimmick.
fuck taunts
fuck taunts
XxNoriakixX
Well-Known Member
Hm I kind of like the open and closed stance "mechanics". I mean I grew up with these in mind through Virtua Fighter and they add more depth to the game imo. I just hate the large buffer window. I can't play Ayane with an stick and can't let her spin forward on reaction because the game buffers like every direction so that I end up sidewalking or simply turning around lol. I also think that 3 heights are enough and that there shouldn't be special heights for hitting someone in the back etc.
WAZAAAAA doing God's Work as per usual.
At the same time, you can still space, it's just not a 100% uber "I'm always protected" option. Your opponent is trying to do the same thing. Plus people should be using 214214 movement anyways, allowing you to move back quicker #stillvulnerable. I like people still being under threat. And you get hit with a CH and not HCH. I can see where you're coming from though.
If the launch is purely random based off the same scenario, they should fix that.[/QUOTE]
LMAO. Mirror matches? I have no idea.
DISAGREE: Gotta punish turtles and peeps that always try and run away, man. Most of the time it's a Back Dasher getting hit from a 236P Ein or some long extending move (that's usually unsafe as hell) and the opponent got them reads, so there already was some good give and take to begin with.
At the same time, you can still space, it's just not a 100% uber "I'm always protected" option. Your opponent is trying to do the same thing. Plus people should be using 214214 movement anyways, allowing you to move back quicker #stillvulnerable. I like people still being under threat. And you get hit with a CH and not HCH. I can see where you're coming from though.
MOSTLY DISAGREE: I follow this Philosophy. You have a different launch juggle for main weights to either maximize damage or to capitalize on some sort of advantage scenario. Usually it's just Light, Medium, and Heavy, give or take one in between based off Super Light or your character. The Exception is Alpha, which used to be considered your "Super Launch" combo, which was either given because of some extreme slope scenario OR the example with Kasumi getting mad launched in the air. I can capitalize on these as they come and have learned to do so fairly accurately (maybe it's just easy for my character/her launch move heights fall into place well). That being said, I think this is all fine and dandy, and it separates good players from great players.
If the launch is purely random based off the same scenario, they should fix that.[/QUOTE]
DISAGREE-ISH: I think Fuzzy guarding added depth to the game and was another thing that separated good players from bad. I agree this change wouldn't be bad though.
UNSURE: This takes out a lot of the game. I'm not sure if it would be worth it or not. Entire strategies revolve around this mechanic and people search high and low in training mode to find out stuff like this for their character. The game would definitely be very different. I'm not sure if it would be better or not.
AGREE.
AGREE.
DISAGREE. I see nothing from with a move serving as visual deception. It's just a bad move on paper, but perhaps in high pressure situations, the move becomes better. What's wrong with that? That concept is actually tight. If a guard break always serves as something good, then the game becomes brain dead easy. I'd rather have people be forced to look at their moves/check the frame data/learn by trial and error instead of "LOL GUARD BREAK BETTER FOR ME."
AGREE*. This shit is mostly whack af, especially if it's in a completely random scenario like a counter hit. THAT BEING SAID, I think the "camera" should be another tool used by the player as there are some pretty nuance, THOUGH EFFECTIVE, scenarios in which someone can perform a sort of 3D cross up to their advantage utilizing the camera switch. If the player can control this element of the game to his advantage, that's a good thing because it's based off knowledge of the game and they should be rewarded. And of course, the opponent can always have this knowledge as well/react to it.
AGREE.
EFFING AGREE. Training mode should serve as the perfect and utter break down of what can happen in a real match against a real player. The more you deviate from this, the worse you're off. The only exception to this would be like "quality of life" training commands to aid the player to maybe repeat a scenario or something faster because in fighting games repetition is everything to train muscle memory. Any time a fighting game has a bad training mode I take it as the developer saying "I don't want you to get good at this game."
AGREE.
MOSTLY AGREE. However, there are certainly some moves, without a doubt, that can be held on reaction (Hayabusa's 6kp to name one). In that scenario it's 100% on you to see that coming and perform the HC Hold, which can be done. Overall this is one of the most interesting changes. Sick read extra dmg counters OUT OF STUN would be sick.
UNSURE. During this time every fighting game was trying to develop their come back mechanic to try and appear more exciting. This was a retarded move for the most part/not going to go into why. Punishing the winning player though? This seems to be true, but for an instant, I'd like people to consider what David Sirlin said about Puzzle Fighter, a game in which, the closer you are at losing is.... closer you are at winning.... Most games don't have this.
DOA is also one of those games where you are simultaneously winning and losing at the same time. Completely opinionated, but I think DOA is already not GREAT to watch for the populous. Without it, I think it would be even more boring.
AGREE. I thought the higher damaging move would win sometimes? How would you actually solve the 2 people throwing at the exact the same with the exact same throw mirror match scenario though? I think grapplers should take precedent
LMAO. Mirror matches? I have no idea.MOSTLY AGREE. They definitely need to rework this. At least give the proper way to do it/something that works consistently.
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I believe Kwiggle has some setups relating to such a thing. I know Rock and Leifang users do as well on wake-up.
The one that does the most damage wins.
If damage is the same, the one with the slower startup wins.
If startup is the same, then the one with the lesser life wins.
If life is the same, then it's random.
WAZAAAAA
Well-Known Member
I have no issue with having different weight classes, I was complaining about using 1 launcher on 1 character and getting at least 6 different launcher heights depending on weird stuff like being backturned crouched etc. all scenarios were listed
I don't see the similarity with DOA
I agree and disagree with with different points here and there, but there are two things that can be done to ultimately flash out the game:
1. Recreate a brand new fighting and animation engine and repurpose the characters with new changes in mind.
2. Liscence the Virtua Fighter fighting engine from VF.
1. Recreate a brand new fighting and animation engine and repurpose the characters with new changes in mind.
2. Liscence the Virtua Fighter fighting engine from VF.
WAZAAAAA
Well-Known Member
DOA has easily the best 3D animations in fighting games whatchu talkin about fam
Nah, VF's animations look ugly as shit and clunky as hell. Very solid 3D fighting series however. As WAZAAAAAA implied, DOA5LR easily has the best looking animations in fighting games including better animations than games like Tekken 7.
Animation =/= Animation engine
An animation is just a few set of key frames on a rig. An animation engine can play the same frames with the same interpolation, but how it treats each animation, how it does the collision detection and how all the interactions between the animations work within its library is done through that. You can have Tekken animations run through the VF engine, but it won't act the same nor interact the same way. Of course, it's not as simple as dragging and dropping animations frames, you still need to assign collision bounds and tracking individually, but my point still stands.
An animation is just a few set of key frames on a rig. An animation engine can play the same frames with the same interpolation, but how it treats each animation, how it does the collision detection and how all the interactions between the animations work within its library is done through that. You can have Tekken animations run through the VF engine, but it won't act the same nor interact the same way. Of course, it's not as simple as dragging and dropping animations frames, you still need to assign collision bounds and tracking individually, but my point still stands.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
I disagree with point 1; removing counter-hit while backdashing. The game is too rewarding for spacers/turtlers already. Not to mention it makes sense. Dashing backwards will more easily throw you off-balance if you get hit than standing still.
I also disagree with point 14; even though it can be regarded as a 'comeback mechanic', it's not as if it can be thrown out easily for high damage. Power blows can be easily countered and heavily punished. This is a very minor 'problem' compared to the rest of the list. It's not necessary but not game-breaking either.
The rest of the points I agree with.
One thing I fundamentally hate that was not mentioned; having negative frames after a normal hit, especially the ones that are not low attacks. Normal hits should at least be neutral.
I also disagree with point 14; even though it can be regarded as a 'comeback mechanic', it's not as if it can be thrown out easily for high damage. Power blows can be easily countered and heavily punished. This is a very minor 'problem' compared to the rest of the list. It's not necessary but not game-breaking either.
The rest of the points I agree with.
One thing I fundamentally hate that was not mentioned; having negative frames after a normal hit, especially the ones that are not low attacks. Normal hits should at least be neutral.
WAZAAAAA
Well-Known Member
I don't see it
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Gap closers are generally either unsafe, extremely slow, or easily freestep dodgeable. And if you're good at footsies, you won't get hit while trying to back dash. Not to mention a back dash is easily cancelled as well. I'd rather they fix the korean back dash rather than counter hit on back dash.
But maybe that's just me.
@WAZAAAAA
One thing people don't mention much either is the recovery and how active parries are for certain characters. Particularly Leifang and Gen Fu. It's case scenario where during a situation they are at light disadvantage and pop in a parry, and then immediately attack afterwards. Stuff like that you can't exactly be too consistent with on trying to attack in between the end of the parry diminishing it's properties and then attacking before the opponent attacks. Sabaki is a different case and much more readable due to how slow it is.
One thing people don't mention much either is the recovery and how active parries are for certain characters. Particularly Leifang and Gen Fu. It's case scenario where during a situation they are at light disadvantage and pop in a parry, and then immediately attack afterwards. Stuff like that you can't exactly be too consistent with on trying to attack in between the end of the parry diminishing it's properties and then attacking before the opponent attacks. Sabaki is a different case and much more readable due to how slow it is.
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TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
I agree on several things. Mainly hi-counter holds being luck and Power Blows/Launchers being stupid comeback mechs. The open/closed stance thing doesn't bother me much but I think every character should have a command to quickly change it in neutral. P+K+H maybe? I dunno.
Barrogh
New Member
I kinda disagree with reasoning on point 7. In fighting games in general, some moves have dramatic animations if they hit, which is added purely due aesthetical reasons. These "on hit taunts" are no exceptions. They have frame advantage numbers they have because they are designed and/or coded that way. If a move is supposed to, say, reset a neutral, they will, whether it is by means of short KD or long KD with long "taunt" attached to an attacker on hit.
If the move doesn't have a purpose as a result, it's a matter of its design, and "Hey, give this move +30 more" may or may not be an answer. By the way, it could still be "+30 more" even while retaining the taunt animation, if devs wanted that. Or if they cared enough to not leave an oversight with punishable on hit moves be, that works too.
Admit it, you just hate taunts in general
I also wanted to comment on the last bullet (which I agree with) and execution in general, but that's a huge can of worm I'd be opening that way. Suggestions to go and play Fantasy Strike coming my way would be involved too, so I'll probably refrain from this
If the move doesn't have a purpose as a result, it's a matter of its design, and "Hey, give this move +30 more" may or may not be an answer. By the way, it could still be "+30 more" even while retaining the taunt animation, if devs wanted that. Or if they cared enough to not leave an oversight with punishable on hit moves be, that works too.
Admit it, you just hate taunts in general
I also wanted to comment on the last bullet (which I agree with) and execution in general, but that's a huge can of worm I'd be opening that way. Suggestions to go and play Fantasy Strike coming my way would be involved too, so I'll probably refrain from this
WAZAAAAA
Well-Known Member
I see your point but shit dude the dragon kick keeps having these weird edge cases in every DOA... getting rid of the forced taunt would've been a lazy straightforward way to solve it I guessI kinda disagree with reasoning on point 7. In fighting games in general, some moves have dramatic animations if they hit, which is added purely due aesthetical reasons. These "on hit taunts" are no exceptions. They have frame advantage numbers they have because they are designed and/or coded that way. If a move is supposed to, say, reset a neutral, they will, whether it is by means of short KD or long KD with long "taunt" attached to an attacker on hit.
If the move doesn't have a purpose as a result, it's a matter of its design, and "Hey, give this move +30 more" may or may not be an answer. By the way, it could still be "+30 more" even while retaining the taunt animation, if devs wanted that. Or if they cared enough to not leave an oversight with punishable on hit moves be, that works too.
Admit it, you just hate taunts in general
I also wanted to comment on the last bullet (which I agree with) and execution in general, but that's a huge can of worm I'd be opening that way. Suggestions to go and play Fantasy Strike coming my way would be involved too, so I'll probably refrain from this
I don't really hate taunts in particular, I just don't use them in any fighting game outside of 3rd Strike where they have real effects. I have them completely unmapped in DOA so they don't execute accidentally. I just feel like they're a waste of frames and prefer to build meter/get better spacing/relax my hands by doing nothing instead. That's why I'm salty at forced taunts, muh wasted frames
I kinda like Fantasy Strike, mayne.
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WAZAAAAA
Well-Known Member
Well... fast-forward to a few years, DOA6 releases and tackles many of these issues! So I guess a follow-up post is due.
3. Stand Block to Crouch Block transition delay
4. Unholdables
5. Back Turned to Front Turned transition
6. Open/Closed stance differences
8. Negative Guard Breaks
13. Hi Counter/Counter holds are just luck
15. Randomness in some trade situations
Launcher heights were convoluted to the point of JANK, but now they're a bit more consistent.
The mechanic of "the more you stun your opponents the higher you'll launch them" is gone, which was my main gripe with the system.
7. Taunt animations on hit
I kinda changed my mind on this one; keep it.
- Sure you still get some "punishable-on-hit" edge cases.
- You dramatically lose wall combo potential... but that's ok. Jann Lee has the best wallsplat distance overall, so it's ok for him to have the worst follow-up potential from them.
- The forced taunt mechanic is too cool and unique to pass up, and there are some interesting niche ways to "play around it".
- Also it can be a blessing, especially with meter in the game. Sometimes the distance from a wall is sus and you don't know whether your 66K is gonna cause a "wallsplat combo ender animation" (taunt triggered) or a "wallsplat jugglable state animation" (taunt not triggered). Say you press 66K into 6S... it will be option selected like this: if it can combo 6S will come out (no meter waste), if it can not combo 6S will not come out (still no meter waste).
9. Unpredictable camera switch on hold-resistant attacks
The developers came up with an even better solution: slow-motion. Documented in official sources:
10. Vague ping display
It shows who's wired and who's wi-fi more clearly now, but the real NUMBERS are still hidden ( ･᷄ ︵･᷅ )
11. Training dummy issues
- AI-only attacks have been fixed for the most part:
- Stagger Escape has been removed so every flaw related to it is gone
- when Throw Escape is set to FASTEST, the dummy will break escapable throws 1 frame slower than a human with frame-perfect timing as previously mentioned this is actually a good thing to have, so players can train their frame perfect combo throw timings (reminder that when both sides input the throw followup on same frame, the throw breaks)... but maybe it should be labeled as "NEARLY FASTEST" or something better for clarity
12. Frame buffer system not working during Danger Zones
Inputs buffer correctly during Danger Zones now.
14. Comeback mechanics
PB and PL are gone, so no more comeback mechanics.
Meter build for the player receiving damage is half of the attacker's, so it's not a comeback mechanic if we go by novriltataki's short and sweet definition: "Tools you gain access to by losing more than by winning"
16. Remove the Stagger Escape mashing mechanic
Stagger Escape has been completely removed from DOA and as a consequence stun durations have decreased overall. Wonderful *chef kiss*
Team Ninja listens to our prayers I'm telling you guys
UNSOLVED:
1. Counter Hit while Back Dashing3. Stand Block to Crouch Block transition delay
4. Unholdables
5. Back Turned to Front Turned transition
6. Open/Closed stance differences
8. Negative Guard Breaks
13. Hi Counter/Counter holds are just luck
15. Randomness in some trade situations
FIXED (COMPLETELY OR PARTIALLY):
2. Unreliable Launcher heightsLauncher heights were convoluted to the point of JANK, but now they're a bit more consistent.
The mechanic of "the more you stun your opponents the higher you'll launch them" is gone, which was my main gripe with the system.
I kinda changed my mind on this one; keep it.
- Sure you still get some "punishable-on-hit" edge cases.
- You dramatically lose wall combo potential... but that's ok. Jann Lee has the best wallsplat distance overall, so it's ok for him to have the worst follow-up potential from them.
- The forced taunt mechanic is too cool and unique to pass up, and there are some interesting niche ways to "play around it".
- Also it can be a blessing, especially with meter in the game. Sometimes the distance from a wall is sus and you don't know whether your 66K is gonna cause a "wallsplat combo ender animation" (taunt triggered) or a "wallsplat jugglable state animation" (taunt not triggered). Say you press 66K into 6S... it will be option selected like this: if it can combo 6S will come out (no meter waste), if it can not combo 6S will not come out (still no meter waste).
9. Unpredictable camera switch on hold-resistant attacks
The developers came up with an even better solution: slow-motion. Documented in official sources:
10. Vague ping display
It shows who's wired and who's wi-fi more clearly now, but the real NUMBERS are still hidden ( ･᷄ ︵･᷅ )
11. Training dummy issues
- AI-only attacks have been fixed for the most part:
- In DOA5LR, waking up from a hard knockdown at the first possible frame required frame perfect timing by the player because of no buffering in that situation, and even with perfect timing it would still be slower than what the dummy could achieve by 1 frame. Now in DOA6 the earliest wake up timing is bufferable, and is also consistent with the earliest wake up timing the dummy can achieve!
- Stagger Escape has been removed so every flaw related to it is gone
12. Frame buffer system not working during Danger Zones
Inputs buffer correctly during Danger Zones now.
14. Comeback mechanics
PB and PL are gone, so no more comeback mechanics.
Meter build for the player receiving damage is half of the attacker's, so it's not a comeback mechanic if we go by novriltataki's short and sweet definition: "Tools you gain access to by losing more than by winning"
16. Remove the Stagger Escape mashing mechanic
Stagger Escape has been completely removed from DOA and as a consequence stun durations have decreased overall. Wonderful *chef kiss*
Team Ninja listens to our prayers I'm telling you guys
Shirataki Tsume
Well-Known Member
I know I'm so late because I just bought the full game (Deluxe) on the Black Friday sale and I've only been playing the Core Fighters version 2 years ago and only bought three characters because the game was so expensive.
Now to business... Dead or Alive 6 has some strikes that lead to counter hold animations to be inverted from which limb it counters. You counter hold a right kick, the counter hold animation shows it's doing a counter hold on the left kick and vice versa.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/179az3QGmrjPTWk-3Ibq-6EM-X2jnmvAi/view?usp=sharing
Now to business... Dead or Alive 6 has some strikes that lead to counter hold animations to be inverted from which limb it counters. You counter hold a right kick, the counter hold animation shows it's doing a counter hold on the left kick and vice versa.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/179az3QGmrjPTWk-3Ibq-6EM-X2jnmvAi/view?usp=sharing