DOA5U Ein's Match-up Rating Discussion

[Crext]

Howdy, thought we might start a discussion regarding Ein's match-ups and what you believe to be the case.
Remember that this is just speculations at this time, but I'll still want to hear your opinions, so we could get some estimates up and running.

We'll use the same as in the old
http://www.freestepdodge.com/thread...live-5-tier-list-with-discussion-thread.2082/
where 5 means equal, 6 means you win 6 of 4 if you are equally good, and 4 the other way around.

I'll give an example as I view things.

Ein vs
Akira - 5
Alpha152 - 5
Ayane - 4 (in Ein's disfavor)
Bass - 5
Bayman - 5
Brad - 5
Christie - 4
Eliot - 5
Gen Fu - 5
Hayate - 4
Helena - 4
Hitomi - 4
Jann - 4
Kasumi - 5
Kokoro - 4
Leifang - 5
Lisa - 5
Mila - 3
Pai - 4
Rig - 4
Ryu - 5
Sarah - 4
Tina - 5
Zack - 4
New crew:
Rachel - 5
Ein - 5
Momiji - 6 (in Ein's favor)
Leon - 5
Jacky - 4

I'll leave a lot on 5 if I don't feel I know enough to comment at all.
It is especially crushes that brings his numbers down to 4 in many of the cases.
6 is basically characters that his strong range game is more useful (can poke his way to victory).

I do not feel I am in no situation to judge, and want a discussion going. I've only had closer to 100 fights under the belt on him so the "estimate" I bring forth is probably not the best and I want you to correct me!

Hoping for some good replies.

Edit: Editing inputs.

 

[VirtuaKazama]

CyberEvil was right when he told me that the matchup between Ein and Momiji ruled in Ein's favor.

 

[Tenryuga]

I believe the Kasumi matchup to be even or 4.5 - 5.5 In Kasumi's favor. She has nothing she can do to stop Ein's footsies but bulldoze her way in which is not the best Idea but she is dictating the match up close. Vs Hayate I believe that to be in Hayate's favor as Hayate has the tools to negate Ein's spacing and dominates him up close via his sidestep tools and superior speed. I can elaborate more if needed.

Why is MIla a 7-3 matchup? I have faced none.

 

[Crext]

You mention footsies against Kasumi, but how do you deal with the 9KK, 9p(k), ppkk/ppk2k, 7k (any version), 8p, 6p6kk/6p6kp, 4pp/1pp, 3pkk, 6H+K, H+Kk/2k, 2H+K. 66H+K? P and 9P during Hoshinpo alone has massive range and will get her right in there from outside the footsies range. And then you of course has the block game which is not hard against Ein, and once he is close, ye as you say, she is at an advantage. There is so much for her to answer with, and I am not saying you are wrong, but if you could elaborate a little to what the general answer is, then it would make me understand that point a little more. Btw 4 in this setting would be the closest you get to 4,5-5,5

I don't know much about the Hayate setup, but I guess it makes sense.

The Mila match up is actually a carry over from the Hitomi vs Mila from DoA5, and again this could best be called an estimate. The differences are not that great, from the old, on this note in my eyes.

It is basically Milas "anti-neutral stance" (like anti-standing attacks) and her offensive holds that play a huge role. She crushes a lot of highs and mids, and her offensive holds against standing opponents are devastating and almost guaranteed in Ein/Hitomi's cases as almost all of their attacks are done from standing position. Luckily she is countered by people who uses "specials stands", which is almost all of the rest of the roster, so there are not that many Milas to go around as she is not particularly strong all around.

I think I'll edit the original list though, so we got a "collective" vote. So do continue with the inputs by all means.

 

[MasterHavik]

What is Ein's fastest mid and low? Zack vs. Ein could be 5-5 or 6-4 Zack.

 

[Crext]

What is Ein's fastest mid and low? Zack vs. Ein could be 5-5 or 6-4 Zack.

Hm, his fastest mid is 13 frame 3p or 3k.
His fastest low is 13 frames in the weak 2p (+1 on hit).
His best low is by far the 24 frame 2H+K.

Confirmed.

 

[MasterHavik]

Hm, his fastest mid is 13 frame 3p or 3k.
His fastest low is 13 frames in the weak 2p (+0 on hit).
His best low is by far the 24 frame 2H+K.

Confirmed.

does he have any crushes?

 

[Crext]

does he have any crushes?

His 236k and 214K crushes low. That said those are not moves you'd use up close, and more of initiators. However, something which comes back time and time again is that most of the attacks are done from a basic standing position.

He does also go into a crouching position on 2p and 2H+K when he attacks low. Trying to trigger my memory for more, but in general I'd say he has very few options.

 

[AkaShocka]

What is Ein's fastest mid and low? Zack vs. Ein could be 5-5 or 6-4 Zack.

You are Zack's biggest defender. I'm not meaning that in a bad way. Its good to see you staying loyal to Zack, you probably the only Zack player that posts in the forums alot.

 

[MasterHavik]

His 236k and 214K crushes low. That said those are not moves you'd use up close, and more of initiators. However, something which comes back time and time again is that most of the attacks are done from a basic standing position.

He does also go into a crouching position on 2p and 2H+K when he attacks low. Trying to trigger my memory for more, but in general I'd say he has very few options.

I know some Ein and I know he no parries and Zack is also safer than him. so yeah Zack beats 6-4. It will still be a good fast. It's 6-4 since Zack is faster than him(i10 jab, i11 mid, and i13 low. also his fastest low outside of that is 2k which is i17.), Ein has no real way to stop his offense, and will have trouble punishing him since he has a lot of safe moves on block and has a stronger range game than him. Ein should try using 4k to punish whiffs on some of zack moves and 2p him out of some of his strings while Zack can do the same with 6p. Would you agree kind sir?

You are Zack's biggest defender. I'm not meaning that in a bad way. Its good to see you staying loyal to Zack, you probably the only Zack player that posts in the forums alot.

LOL well I have learned to be more honest, but thanks for the props dude. I know a little Ein too. I need to make knowledge of other character bigger.

 

[Tenryuga]

You mention footsies against Kasumi, but how do you deal with the 9KK, 9p(k), ppkk/ppk2k, 7k (any version), 8p, 6p6kk/6p6kp, 4pp/1pp, 3pkk, 6H+K, H+Kk/2k, 2H+K. 66H+K? P and 9P during Hoshinpo alone has massive range and will get her right in there from outside the footsies range. And then you of course has the block game which is not hard against Ein, and once he is close, ye as you say, she is at an advantage.

No proper Kasumi player is going to use 9PK during footsies due to it being free stepable. 3PKK is not a move you toss out when you are not in close quarters and that entire string is linear so just step that. 7K isn't to be used raw either that's a launcher. PPKK / PPK2K is no mixup just duck after the first K. 8P is rarely used by Kasumi players and so is 6H+K. 9K is to punish close range whiffs. 66H+K is the worst possible move Kasumi can put on the screen because it can be seen and reacted to. 2H+K is a slow low with range that isn't that great. 4PP is a terrible string for Kasumi to use on block and the only mixup it offers is "will she go low or not." because no Kasumi is using 4PK on block unless they want to get thrown. 6P6K strings are also terrible to use on block. Half of the things you are mentioning won't even be used in the matchup during high level play.

In close range Kasumi is pestering Ein with her jab strings and mids such as 3PP and 6PK. In a spacing situation If Ein is at his ideal range Kasumi has no choice but to bulldoze in or use hoshinpo. Hoshinpo dash options are all dealt with by fuzzy guarding and if you duck the worst possible thing that can happen is you taking a knee that does pitiful damage. Ein is equipped with the tools he needs to play keepaway in 4K, 3K, and 46P. They both dictate the match at different points which is why I was leaning toward it being even. But I'm just one person and I don't think 6-4 Kasumi is unreasonable at all.

 

[MasterHavik]

How would Ein deal with i9 characters Tenryuga? I think block and punishing if your best bet. I do it with Zack.

 

[Tenryuga]

How would Ein deal with i9 characters Tenryuga? I think block and punishing if your best bet. I do it with Zack.

EIn struggles alot in close range if the worth of his 2P pressure is reduced. His best course of action is to defend, make reads on their strings and pressure with holds or sidestep. The occasional 2P to crush and give himself breathing room is recommended.

 

[AkaShocka]

Tenryuga, how would you use Ein against Christie? IMO other than the VF characters, Christie gives everyone else the hardest time. She has the pressure but if you use characters like Ryu or Ayane that space alot she can play the space game just as good as them tbh her spacing is just as good or even better than Lisa's sometimes. I use her so I really don't have much trouble with her myself. But you as an Ein player, how do you deal with her?

 

[VirtuaKazama]

How is Ein/Rachel a 7-3?

 

[Tenryuga]

Tenryuga, how would you use Ein against Christie? IMO other than the VF characters, Christie gives everyone else the hardest time. She has the pressure but if you use characters like Ryu or Ayane that space alot she can play the space game just as good as them tbh her spacing is just as good or even better than Lisa's sometimes. I use her so I really don't have much trouble with her myself. But you as an Ein player, how do you deal with her?

Ein cant do much to handle Christie. He is linear as fuck and JAK makes it annoying to space because it can avoid the majority of his attacks. His low OH does help when he makes a read on JAK though. That's the one tool that helps him out. Christie just has to make sure shes not doing anything dumb in space with JAK because she takes 236P if she does.

 

[AkaShocka]

Ein cant do much to handle Christie. He is linear as fuck and JAK makes it annoying to space because it can avoid the majority of his attacks. His low OH does help when he makes a read on JAK though. That's the one tool that helps him out. Christie just has to make sure shes not doing anything dumb in space with JAK because she takes 236P if she does.

I see. So say me and you are going at it, BOW BOW! Right? And then its 2-2 and I'm Christie and you are Ein. We both have extremely low health and are spacing. As Ein what can you do? With Christie I can do a heap of things. jak 1kk, jak 1k6k, jak 44p, jak 44t, jak 44k, 236p, 46p, 66k, running 2k, 214p and so on. See as Christie I have a ton of options, but what would the wise Ein player do in this situation?

 

[Tenryuga]

I see. So say me and you are going at it, BOW BOW! Right? And then its 2-2 and I'm Christie and you are Ein. We both have extremely low health and are spacing. As Ein what can you do? With Christie I can do a heap of things. jak 1kk, jak 1k6k, jak 44p, jak 44t, jak 44k, 236p, 46p, 66k, running 2k, 214p and so on. See as Christie I have a ton of options, but what would the wise Ein player do in this situation?

I have to choose between baiting something out and going YOLO and running in with a strike or grab. In space Ein has 1K, 46P, 236P, 4K for keep out, and 46K. He also has H+K and 2H+K at closer ranges to clip sidestep. I'm not going to include 236K because of the start-up time and risk involved if it whiffs. I would stay away from Christie and wait for her to whiff JAK options or run at me. If she's running at me I'm assuming she's coming at me with running K or strings.

 

[Tenryuga]

Hm, his fastest mid is 13 frame 3p or 3k.
His fastest low is 13 frames in the weak 2p (+0 on hit).
His best low is by far the 24 frame 2H+K.

Confirmed.

2P is +1 on hit.

 

[Crext]

No proper Kasumi player is going to use 9PK during footsies due to it being free stepable. 3PKK is not a move you toss out when you are not in close quarters and that entire string is linear so just step that. 7K isn't to be used raw either that's a launcher. PPKK / PPK2K is no mixup just duck after the first K. 8P is rarely used by Kasumi players and so is 6H+K. 9K is to punish close range whiffs. 66H+K is the worst possible move Kasumi can put on the screen because it can be seen and reacted to. 2H+K is a slow low with range that isn't that great. 4PP is a terrible string for Kasumi to use on block and the only mixup it offers is "will she go low or not." because no Kasumi is using 4PK on block unless they want to get thrown. 6P6K strings are also terrible to use on block. Half of the things you are mentioning won't even be used in the matchup during high level play.

In close range Kasumi is pestering Ein with her jab strings and mids such as 3PP and 6PK. In a spacing situation If Ein is at his ideal range Kasumi has no choice but to bulldoze in or use hoshinpo. Hoshinpo dash options are all dealt with by fuzzy guarding and if you duck the worst possible thing that can happen is you taking a knee that does pitiful damage. Ein is equipped with the tools he needs to play keepaway in 4K, 3K, and 46P. They both dictate the match at different points which is why I was leaning toward it being even. But I'm just one person and I don't think 6-4 Kasumi is unreasonable at all.

Well, you don't have to use the k in 9pk, and you probably shouldn't as it will miss lows. 9p is simply a move to get into Ein's face fast and start the domination. It is more of a semi-crush move for Ein's lows (and some mids?). 7k is simply a low crush as it hits you crouching but jumps over any low attack. It is also so fast (12 frames!) that it will beat most of your moves after string finish. It is actually quite common to use as a standalone because of the low frame usage and range. ppkk is a low crush where she jumps during the last kk (the two first pp is simply to keep you guessing, the last kk has good range). The last k is also a mid kick so ducking won't help you.
6H+Kk is the same move without the initial pp.
8P is rarely used because it is very situational. It is not part of her standard setup, but is quite useful to get into the face of characters with range potential (Lisa, Hitomi, Ein). 9K is another low crush as she jumps off the ground (it hits mid) and it also covers a lot of ground, and can also be canceled or follow by a kick or punch, letting the odds be in favor of Kasumi even if it doesn't crush. This is the same move in 6p6k giving many alternatives (can also go low from this one).
66H+K is another low crush, she jumps in the initial phase before she does the low attack. 2H+K is good for the medium range as it is faster than Ein's 24 frame 2H+K and has long enough range to beat out 2p and crushes highs.
4pp and 1pp has initial moves that are really fast and with ok range in the mid range area which could crush Ein's footsies. I should perhaps just say 4p and 1p where you don't follow up with the last p unless you crit hit the crush.

I hope I am not drilling you too much here, but Kasumi is one of the characters I kinda use so I kinda are able to put some debate on the subject.

And all of this we have talked about is alternatives for Kasumi to get past Ein's low footsies.
The fact that pretty much any approach Ein does puts him close to her and makes it a close game on block, and even throw punishable. Even his +1's approaches are dangerous as she has 9 frame jab and 11 frame mid (Ein has 13 frame mid so he lose, and her mids crush high so his 10 frame jab could crush her 9 frame jab as it does more damage (Guessing here), but Kasumi still has more alternatives where she wins the frame war even at disadvantage +1).

All in all I'd say Kasumi has so many alternatives to get into Ein's face that Ein can't use his range game to his advantage as much as he'd want to. If Kasumi want to get close, she will get close.

How is Ein/Rachel a 7-3?

She's just so strong right now. She is faster, more safe and with higher damage output compared to the risk. And against a slow character like Ein her force techs are devastating. It is very difficult for Ein to get back once he is on his heels.

I know some Ein and I know he no parries and Zack is also safer than him. so yeah Zack beats 6-4. It will still be a good fast. It's 6-4 since Zack is faster than him(i10 jab, i11 mid, and i13 low. also his fastest low outside of that is 2k which is i17.), Ein has no real way to stop his offense, and will have trouble punishing him since he has a lot of safe moves on block and has a stronger range game than him. Ein should try using 4k to punish whiffs on some of zack moves and 2p him out of some of his strings while Zack can do the same with 6p. Would you agree kind sir?

I really have little to answer with here, you got anything Tenryuga? I've only met one decent Zack and he crushed me a lot and beat me with with those superior mids you are talking about. I'll change it to 4 as you make a strong case. Though more research must probably be done (can be said about all of this chart though -_-).