DOA5U Ein's Match-up Rating Discussion

AkaShocka

Well-Known Member
I have to choose between baiting something out and going YOLO and running in with a strike or grab. In space Ein has 1K, 46P, 236P, 4K for keep out, and 46K. He also has H+K and 2H+K at closer ranges to clip sidestep. I'm not going to include 236K because of the start-up time and risk involved if it whiffs. I would stay away from Christie and wait for her to whiff JAK options or run at me. If she's running at me I'm assuming she's coming at me with running K or strings.
ok I see. Well when we fight, I honestly hope you don't run towards me like some YOLO and try to win lmao. So Ein's worst match up is Christie? Jeez she gives everyone a hard time lol. Other than the VF characters, I think Christie and Rachel give the rest of the cast a harder time due to their tools.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member

You aren't drilling info into me as I mained Kasumi in DOA5 so I am speaking from a year of experience as well as what I see in high level play. And it is good that you are debating because it educates people that dont know about the matchup. Moving on have you seen high level play of Kasumi? All of the moves you are mentioning are moves that are avoided for clear reasons. And you are only talking about one part of the match. Most of the moves you mentioned that are low crushes are not instant low crushes and put her into a poor situation on block.

PPKK - This is never going to be used in a fight in high level play unless you want to take throw punishment. The low in the string isn't worth that risk because she has much better strings she should be using to pressure somebody.

9P - 9P flip by itself to get in is not a good idea. It can clearly be seen whether she does the high kick or not so she is not surprising anybody with this move.

9K - This is a good range poke but it leaves her at -12 on block. Her followups are an unsafe high elbow of an unsafe mid k. The mid K followup isn't worth going for as the damage she nets from it is worse than the damage an opponent gets from a 12 frame punish throw. The cancel isn't too difficult to notice as well. The delay on the followups is nowhere near the level of 3PP or 6PK delay. 3P and 6P being legitimate points to cancel a string.

Ein's footsies doesn't consist of only lows. When Ein is playing footsies he is hovering in and outside of 46P and 236P range. That is his ideal range. At that distance hoshinpo from Kasumi isn't ideal. She would be better off dashing in with string pressure or poking with 3K.

Ein's footsie tools are 236P, 46P, 236K, 2H+K, H+K, 4K, 1K, 3K, P+K and 6P+K in addition to universal spacing tactics. If I whiff a 1K outside of 236P / 46P range Kasumi has no response to that. If she tries to hoshinpo in she may end up taking whiff punishment from a 4K keepout attempt or If I decided to followup into 1K6P / 1KP get stunned. If she decides to bulldoze me without thinking she may end up taking CH 3K, 4K, 46P, or H+K. Kasumi literally has nothing any player should be afraid of at range. This does not mean she is bad at footsies or spacing. She's alright at it but against characters like Ayane and Ein who control the screen easily she's got nothing. She has no choice but to respect them at distance or bulldoze which doesn't end in her favor.

Kasumi simply shifts the focus of Ein's 2P pressure. Instead of focusing on scoring counter hits, Ein will try to keep Kasumi on lock with jab, crush with 2P, or make a read on her with defensive holds and SS. Use of his mid following 2P should be kept to a minimum so he doesn't get counter blown too often by her mids or jabs. These are really the only options Ein has because Kasumi's speed allows her to dictate the fight in close quarters. He should not even be trying to interupt her strings often. SS or hold them. Then when you get a juggle use the knockback to keep distance. If she is cornered use the wall to your advantage. Her options at the wall are oboro GB or trying to interrupt Ein which isn't hard.

Like I said they both dominate the match at different points so I lean more toward 5-5 but 6-4 is not inaccurate either because when Kasumi gets in close range Ein has some difficulty getting her off of him due to his lack of crushes and speed. You were just making it sound like Kasumi limits Ein at range which is what I'm disputing. If you want a character that limits Ein at range those characters are Ayane, Hayate and possibly Lisa as well. Christie may also give him some problems.

I can't comment on Zack because I don't have MU experience vs Zack. Rachel I'm almost inclined to agree with that number but I am also inexperienced as a player. Once I learn the characters options and get better with Ein I will have better numbers. In general though the standard for Ein having a disadvantage matchup is if anything the opponent has limits the effectiveness of his spacing / footsies as well as his 2P pressure because those are literally all he has.
 
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Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Like I said they both dominate the match at different points so I lean more toward 5-5 but 6-4 is not inaccurate either because when Kasumi gets in close range Ein has some difficulty getting her off of him due to his lack of crushes and speed. You were just making it sound like Kasumi limits Ein at range which is what I'm disputing. If you want a character that limits Ein at range those characters are Ayane, Hayate and possibly Lisa as well. Christie may also give him some problems.

Well, you make a good case. I'll shift it to 5-5, because all in all no matter how you view it, it is less 4 than most of the other 4's on the board. If anything should be closer to equal I guess she is one of the first to go.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
Zack is looking pretty shitty for Ein atm. Ein has few good ways to escape his pressure and Zack has decent tools to approach with. Right now I see this as a 6-4 matchup because Zack STOMPS Ein in close range. Like its not even funny. If the match is in close quarters dont even try to interrupt Zack's pressure; just block and punish, or SS. Holds as well.

Rig is the same imo. Rigs movement is good and his rushdown overwhelms Ein due to his speed frame traps and stuns. If Rig gets his offense started Ein is in a extremely bad situation. He lacks fast crushes needed to stop the assault. Ein can not do as much damage in footsies as Rig can do in close quarters. 6-4 Rig.
 
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Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Zack is looking pretty shitty for Ein atm. Ein has few good ways to escape his pressure and Zack has decent tools to approach with. Right now I see this as a 6-4 matchup because Zack STOMPS Ein in close range. Like its not even funny. If the match is in close quarters dont even try to interrupt Zack's pressure; just block and punish, or SS. Holds as well.

Rig is the same imo. Rigs movement is good and his rushdown overwhelms Ein due to his speed frame traps and stuns. If Rig gets his offense started Ein is in a extremely bad situation. He lacks fast crushes needed to stop the assault. Ein can not do as much damage in footsies as Rig can do in close quarters. 6-4 Rig.

Are you sure? Rig is unsafe like crazy, we are speaking -15 figures here. You can do pretty much any type of throw punish.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
Are you sure? Rig is unsafe like crazy, we are speaking -15 figures here. You can do pretty much any type of throw punish.

That is if he does something punishable. A good Rig player is focusing on his frame traps and using string cancels to throw his opponent off. If you want to see what I mean check out matches between Hoodless and other players at TFC. It can be difficult to stop Rig if you don't make the right reads.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
How is Ein a bad match-up against Rachel?

He can space her out but like I said earlier I believe if Ein cannot combat someone during footsies / spacing as well as the opponent can combat him in close range he is inconvenienced. The ability to play a good distance game and have 2P as a crutch in close range is what makes Ein viable as well as his damage output. Rachel doesn't do anything to affect those things in the MU from neutral but once she gets the vortex going it becomes hard for Ein until he can escape it. I believe you said someone said Ein shits all over Momiji. Would you mind going into more detail as to why that is?
 

VirtuaKazama

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
News Team
I believe you said someone said Ein shits all over Momiji. Would you mind going into more detail as to why that is?

Whenever Momiji goes for any of her Double Jump moves, go for low hold so that her moves will whiff. Also, Ein's spacing game really shines in this matchup. That's all I can remember unless someone else wants to correct me.
 

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
That is if he does something punishable. A good Rig player is focusing on his frame traps and using string cancels to throw his opponent off. If you want to see what I mean check out matches between Hoodless and other players at TFC. It can be difficult to stop Rig if you don't make the right reads.

Ye I know, but as the commentator mentions Rig has a lot of X-factor, like people are not used to fighting him because there are so few that play Rig. Kinda the same as with Zack.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
Ye I know, but as the commentator mentions Rig has a lot of X-factor, like people are not used to fighting him because there are so few that play Rig. Kinda the same as with Zack.

Right but Zack has such insane mixup potential that even if they did know his options the chances of you making the right read are slim. It's a bit easier to make reads on Rig because when he is in BND his options are high, low and mid K and throw and his launchers are either high or mid k. He has a mid P from bnd too but that is the least used option.
 

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Right but Zack has such insane mixup potential that even if they did know his options the chances of you making the right read are slim. It's a bit easier to make reads on Rig because when he is in BND his options are high, low and mid K and throw and his launchers are either high or mid k. He has a mid P from bnd too but that is the least used option.

Aye, I don't doubt Zack has an edge on Ein, but for Rig it might be more the X-factor into play, and not so much the character. I've played some Rig and has noticed several weaknesses that would perhaps be very hard to spot unless you've seen them for yourself. He does for instance has a relatively weak low game on pressure, and certain moves only has 1 follow up which is easily holdable or canceled into huge frame disadvantage (and easily spotted) The strings to throw punish is also often short, and a high block would be enough in most (all?) cases (the lows in question is possible to spot and hold if you're on your toes). He is no stranger to frame traps though, but if the opponent knows them you'll run out of options quick (there are only 2-3 moves that give frame traps) and almost his whole moves set has 10-18 frame disadvantage on block. Yet it doesn't show, as those moves looks like they are safe. There are also several moves that if blocked initially is very easy to hold on the followup (the same moves will not be holdable on initial hit). That said I am not brave enough to say that this makes them equals, and if you'd put me in a cage with a decent Rig player I am far from confident enough to state I'd show equal play. Rig is perhaps one of the most underplayed potentials of DoA as of now.
 
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Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
. I've played some Rig and has noticed several weaknesses that would perhaps be very hard to spot unless you've seen them for yourself. He does for instance has a relatively weak low game on pressure.

His 2P, low from BND and sweep from turn leg cut are really all the lows Rig needs. The low from BND is nasty because it gives him +19 on hit. I don't know the frames on 2P but they are good enough that he can harass Ein. I think you should play hoodless as Ein to get a better feel of what I'm talking about and possibly get more information. I'm speaking based on the things he did to me in the match and those 3 lows were sufficient enough. The lows are punishable if you make the right read which is really what Ein needs to be doing in this match when Rig is on the offensive.

Here was the general flow of the match as we played:

-Rig manages to get into BND on pressure:

Decide between Rig going high mid low or throw. Block / Fuzzy guard is always an available option.

High: Ein must high hold or 2P. Rigs only option here is KK for more frame advantage. SS is also an option.

Mid: Ein must decide between sidestep or mid K hold. Sidestep has a chance ant being clipped due to rigs tracking mid K from BND.

Low: He has a linear low that is +19 but unsafe and I tracking sweep I believe. Low hold, crouch block or sidestep.

Throw: Duck or preferably fuzzy guard.


I applied standard Ein tactics during spacing and they were sufficient but Rigs going to get in at some point. Ein still has the edge here so take advantage of these situations to deal damage.
 

xSA Mulatto

New Member
not really as I feel like the match ups are pretty much on point. Ein isn't that great of a character at all. Hes very linear within the integrated SS system as he basically only has 3 reliable tracking moves that i can think of (a sweep, 4p, h+k). He also has huge nerfs from 4 to 5u with his i13 4k and 6pk and the piss poor damage of his OH. He is very unsafe as most of his moves or mix ups leave him -3 or -5. yeah maybe not throw punishable but none the less counter hit prone. With all of these facts presented he seems like on the lower end of the mid tier from my experience with the character.
 
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Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
not really as I feel like the match ups are pretty much on point. Ein isn't that great of a character at all. Hes very linear within the integrated SS system as he basically only has 3 reliable tracking moves that i can think of (a sweep, 4p, h+k). He also the huge nerfs from 4 to 5u with his 13i 4k and 6pk and the piss poor damage of his OH. He is very unsafe as most of his moves or mix ups leave up -3 or -5. yeah maybe not throw punishable but none the less counter hit prone. With all of these facts presented he seems like on the lower end of the mid tier from my experience with the charcter.

Ein is actually alot safer than the rest of the cast. It also sounds like you are spending alot of time in close quarters in him which is not his strongsuit for the reasons you stated. It's best to play EIn at Mid to Long range and zone the opponent out. He could use some improvements but he is solid. I'd say around mid tier.
 

xSA Mulatto

New Member
Ein is actually alot safer than the rest of the cast. It also sounds like you are spending alot of time in close quarters in him which is not his strongsuit for the reasons you stated. It's best to play EIn at Mid to Long range and zone the opponent out. He could use some improvements but he is solid. I'd say around mid tier.
i agree with what you are saying but what I don't understand is why they would nerf a character who wasn't even that good to begin with? also to chip in playing him from long to mid range and baiting out is the way to go but what about characters with special SS and on par/better zoning tools? he has 46p and 236p at range or if you are feeling risky h+k(tracks) but all the rest of his moves from what I know are either i12 and above. I feel like I struggle with ayane, christie,hayate etc. because they seem to have the ability to just step around you and have a better inside game. then when the pressures on can continue it by throwing out SS preventing moves.. Just IMO he has more to lose than to gain.
 
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Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
i agree with you are saying but what I don't understand is why they would nerf a character who wasn't even that good to begin with? also to chip in playing him from long to mid range and baiting out is the way to go but what about characters with special SS and on par/better zoning tools? he has 46p and 236p at range or if you are feeling risky h+k(tracks) but all the rest of his moves from what I know are either 12i and above. I feel like I struggle with ayane, christie,hayate etc. because they seem to have the ability to just step around you and have a better inside game. then when the pressures on can continue it by throwing out SS preventing moves.. Just IMO he has more to lose than to gain.

Those characters you listed are all indeed bad matchups for Ein because they either negate his spacing or do it better than him. It doesn't help that they beat him up close. Like I said hes flawed but hes viable. Just a bit harder to win with is all. Hopefully TN addresses some of his issues in the patch.
 

Itz King Beebop

Active Member
He can space her out but like I said earlier I believe if Ein cannot combat someone during footsies / spacing as well as the opponent can combat him in close range he is inconvenienced. The ability to play a good distance game and have 2P as a crutch in close range is what makes Ein viable as well as his damage output. Rachel doesn't do anything to affect those things in the MU from neutral but once she gets the vortex going it becomes hard for Ein until he can escape it. I believe you said someone said Ein shits all over Momiji. Would you mind going into more detail as to why that is?

I understand your reasoning in this matchup, but the worst this matchup can go for either character is a 5-5; I feel that this is a completely even matchup... I say this because Ein's spacing (vs Rachel) is equally as good as Rachel's CQC (vs Ein)... Rachel has the range game of a cap gun, and Ein fighting so close against such a mid-oriented character, is like countering against Tina.
This matchup is immediately decided by the range of the fight in the first few seconds of the round; if Rachel has to contend with max range 2H+Ks from Ein in the first 10-15 seconds of the round, keeping her out will be a piece of cake (as long as you're patient.) I also feel that this matchup is so even because both of the characters have equally shitty tracking, and Ein's anti-grab game is on level with Rachel's grab setups, so he won't get blown up with launch grabs... If you don't agree I completely understand, that's how I see the matchup now...
 
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