Female to male ratio and how to re-market doa back as a genuine fighter

Brute

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The other anime tropes don't involve under age school girl slice of life crap, so no. I don't.
Ayane was a 16 year-old tsundere onii-san worshipper.
Kokoro was basically a 17 year-old dandere schoolgirl.

You could say that "ninja" isn't slice of life, but you could also say that "fighting loli" or "magical move-stealing hand girl" are also not slice of life. Marie looks younger than the others (though with Honoka, I can't even tell WTF is supposed to be going on with her visual design), but all of them fit comfortably in the realm of "dumb anime tropes."

Frankly, I'd rather have a dumb anime trope with an original movelist than some drag-and-drop, copy-paste nightmare like Phase 4.
 

Matt Ponton

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And I'm not sure, there was always the rumour of more bounce if you set your age to 99 in DOA2/U idk about DOA3 3 was more tame in general(next to no costumes and no sex appeal outside of Christies ending).

DOA1 had a "bounce" option to toggle.
DOA2 had it so it'd turn on if you set your age to 18 or more. It's the same bounce at 18 as it is at 99.
DOA3 didn't have a "bounce" option to toggle.
DOA4 didn't have a "bounce" option to toggle.
DOA5 had multiple "bounce" variance options to toggle.
 

Awesmic

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What they did throughout 2012 up until the game's release was perfect on terms of marketing IMO, and if I had to do it all over again, I would. If anything, the higher-ups at Koei are the ones to blame for screwing up that fighting game-focused momentum. Remember, they were the ones who forced Team Ninja's hand in pushing the costume agenda, even making them go so low as to sell recolors of existing costumes as paid DLC.

If they leave TN alone in the next sequel and let them have their creative freedom with DOA6 as they intended to market it, I think the chances of it being accepted as a genuine fighter from an outside-looking-in perspective will be much higher.
 

Rikuto

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Ayane was a 16 year-old tsundere onii-san worshipper.
Kokoro was basically a 17 year-old dandere schoolgirl.

You could say that "ninja" isn't slice of life, but you could also say that "fighting loli" or "magical move-stealing hand girl" are also not slice of life. Marie looks younger than the others (though with Honoka, I can't even tell WTF is supposed to be going on with her visual design), but all of them fit comfortably in the realm of "dumb anime tropes."

Frankly, I'd rather have a dumb anime trope with an original movelist than some drag-and-drop, copy-paste nightmare like Phase 4.

One set of characters exists having personality evolution over the series with circumstances to govern their emotional state. This applies more to Ayane than Kasumi, but it does apply to both. Kokoro never had any development, but she didn't commit any real sins either. She's an airhead. Oh well. Ayane was originally a minor villain who later evolved to be sympathized with. Tsundere would also be the wrong classification for Ayane, as she would have to have moments of warmness. The closest she gets is deciding to not hit Eliot. That makes her a bitch, not a Tsundere. Sorry to the Ayane fans out there.

Another set of characters exists as a trope with an emotional state and no circumstances. When they have no circumstances with which to justify their personality, they become less a character and more a trope. That's why tropes exist in the first place -- to classify shallowly written characters easily.

Yet, Nyotengu is also a mega trope with hardly any backstory and I find her less offensive. Why? Because of the same thing I said in the last post. Those tropes don't bother me, and these ones do. I don't care about the ditsy-acting underage school girl (regardless of what the bio says) with oversized breasts who has nothing to do with the established setting and only exists as a reminder that Japan is Japan. At least Nyo is a monster.
 
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Brute

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One set of characters exists having personality evolution over the series with circumstances to govern their emotional state. This applies more to Ayane than Kasumi, but it does apply to both. Kokoro never had any development, but she didn't commit any real sins either. She's an airhead. Oh well.
Maire and Honoka never had any development, but their sins are defined arbitrarily. They're childish. Oh well.

Ayane was originally a minor villain who later evolved to be sympathized with. Tsundere would also be the wrong classification for Ayane, as she would have to have moments of warmness. The closest she gets is deciding to not hit Eliot. That makes her a bitch, not a Tsundere. Sorry to the Ayane fans out there.
She does have moments of warmness (see: Hayate with whom she becomes visually distraught any time he is faced with peril). You can be a tsundere and a bitch. In fact, that's true for almost every tsundere character.

Another set of characters exists as a trope with an emotional state and no circumstances. When they have no circumstances with which to justify their personality, they become less a character and more a trope. That's why tropes exist in the first place -- to classify shallowly written characters easily.
Well, first we should clarify that we're using 'trope" in the colloquial sense rather than the classical one. In this way, it's more or less a stand-in for both motifs and archetypes, but archetypes do not exist merely to classify shallowly written characters. They often work with core literary devices such as motifs (and yes, even classical tropes), many of which can work well, which is why they have been inevitably re-used across fiction over centuries. An archetype that doesn't properly evolve itself from a recognizable mold, in contrast, is a cliché or stereotype.

The line separating archetypes from clichés often varies from person-to-person as well as from character-to-character, but mere circumstance alone does not elevate a stereotypical character into being a well-written or idiosyncratic archetype. I can give you an example: if TN gave Honoka a shitty side story in DOA6 where she joins the tournament to search for clues about her parents but instead bumps into Zack, who hits on her so she beats up him by stealing his Zack Beam move with her magical, move-stealing hand, she'd hardly be any less of a bland, clichéd stereotype than she is now.

If you're about to argue "That would be better than nothing," I would reply "I suppose," but true nothing is almost impossible. Marie and Honoka do actually have some contextual backstory (as shallow, shitty and compelling as they are) behind their bland personalities. Kokoro is not really any different. Frankly, neither is Mila. The only difference is "screen time," but if that's the primary concern, you're in luck, because I'm pretty sure that Marie and Honoka are going to be getting more screen time if/when DOA6 rolls around ("yay").

Yet, Nyotengu is also a mega trope with hardly any backstory and I find her less offensive. Why? Because of the same thing I said in the last post. Those tropes don't bother me, and these ones do. I don't care about the ditsy-acting underage school girl (regardless of what the bio says) with oversized breasts who has nothing to do with the established setting and only exists as a reminder that Japan is Japan. At least Nyo is a monster.
This basically equates to: "All these are dumb, but I like these ones better than those ones, so I'm going to claim the ones I don't like are more dumb and/or poorly written than the ones I do happen to like."

I mean, Marie is frankly the biggest reminder to me that Japan is Japan considering how loli/anime-obsessed the country seems to be. Sure, it might bother you more than Kokoro, but to say that its dumber than Kokoro is, well, dumb.
 

grap3fruitman

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I'm confused. So, here's the issue as you describe it:
loads of comments from everyone who saw us play, too tight, too sexy, and the sounds and provocations of Lisa, and since then I never played it in front of anyone

What does that have anything to do with the ratio of women to men? You could take out every single female except Lisa and you would still have the same issue. What happens when both players choose Lisa? How does your proposal solve anything? What's the logic here?
So, here's what I've been thinking about, let's go over some of the other fighters' rosters and see the ratios (in no particular order, and please correct me if I'm wrong or add more games):

And that makes DOA the only game with more females than males, yes they are used to seeing more d1cks than b00bs, yet the irony is that DOA is the nearest to the actual female to male ratio (which hovers between (1 : 1.2) and (1.2 : 1) but anyways the conclusion is TEAM NINJA make the next game have as near to 1:1 ratio and keep the sex appeal, then I will be the first to cast down anyone who says DOA is a sexist game, furthermore I well be a DOA advocate in my region.
 

YEH

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I'm confused...
...
What does that have anything to do with the ratio of women to men? You could take out every single female except Lisa and you would still have the same issue. What happens when both players choose Lisa? How does your proposal solve anything? What's the logic here?

That's why I said this:
That's what you call the Deadlock situation of Dead or Alive, and if you they do it will be the Virtually Dead fighting game (puns intended), fanservice of DOA and generally speaking any Japanese non kids-only game is a given, there's no way it changes, it's in the veins of the their gaming culture.

only "Deception" will work in this situation, a white lie if I may say.

and this:
Look...
..
Seen old DOA and even the secret nude, but that's a legacy, they should move on, and to be honest look at how every other fighting game has at least one super sexy character, hope TN gets the hint, that's all.

I have been here and there, and I know such problems can't be solved by merely choosing one side of the opposites, and one can't simply choose both sides when they are fundamentally different, that's what one may call impossible, and I am sure TN had long session of talks about "how to re-market DOA" but it seems that failed when DOA5 vanilla was out, they took the already loved sex appeal out of DOA as I researched, the best hope for it is the merger with AM2's VF and create a new parallel universe, just like how Marvel vs. Capcom did, and look how it is both a permanent in and out of the FGC, thinking about Koei Tecmo vs. Sega, could that be a thing?
 

WAZAAAAA

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The closest she gets is deciding to not hit Eliot.
4

https://a.pomfe.co/atzqpm.mp4
 

Argentus

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The problem is it won't work, Team NINJA already tried this with the original release of DOA5 marketing. DOA5 vanilla trailers was all about the "I'm a Fighter" tagline and showing that DOA was a serious competitive fighting game now the VF guests were to help that sentiment.

This didn't go down well and they received complaints from casual fans that like DOA for the sex appeal hence they added Bikini dlc to DOA5 vanilla and ultra hard unlockable bikinis and with DOA5U and onwards TN decided it was more profitable to focus on female skimpy dlc and fetish outifits and guess what? they were right that stuff sold like hotcakes.

That's why DOA5 has 20 females(including guests Sarah, Paid, Mai and Naotora) and 16 males.(Including guests Akira and Jacky)

However, KoeiTecmo Europe and KT America are exclusively marketing DOA as a fighting game which is why Western regions don't get games like DOAX3 or DOAX Venus Vacation. But, that doesn't stop people coming across the several fetish/bikini dlcs on PSN/Xbox Live/Steam or DOAX stuff on the internet.

The problem is it was Team Ninja completely missing the point in both directions.

Their idea of "Serious fighter" was just removing all the style and charm of DOA so we had ugly ass boring brown box stages, shitty "story mode" costumes, no character themes/music, no arcade mode, and most of the guys got hit with an ugly stick. And then crap like how we had to wait for DLC to get the actual outfits for some characters. And then there's their treatment of Zack. Basically everything except the core gameplay of vanilla 5 sucked ass.

So then they just went 180 degrees in the OTHER direction, abandoned being a serious fighter and went all in on the fanservice, unfortunately finally living up to the "titty fighter" reputation DOA had but never actually deserved up until DOA5U's dlc started in.


Then we got a bunch of superfluous female characters with half-assed movesets and visual designs because Koei realized they could sell female DLC characters easily (regardless how much effort or care was put into their design), and the result is that at least 1/3 of the current roster is putrid garbage.
Also, this.


When DOA 5 sales did not perform as they wanted, Team Ninja had a choice. They could re-evaluate what they did wrong and fix it, or they could potentially alienate the wider market and double down on sex appeal which they knew would sell to the more limited eastern market.

They are, at the end of the day, Japanese and they understand their own regions market better than the international one. To be entirely honest, the sexy stuff never fazed me that much but I take exception to the really dumb anime tropes that were inserted in the form of Marie Rose and Honoka. My fear is that ultimately because those two have proven popular to the eastern crowd it seems likely the future of DOA will focus on that kind of character content.

Agreed.
(though with Honoka, I can't even tell WTF is supposed to be going on with her visual design

"Biggest boobs".
That's literally all there is to her, and that is 100% of the thought they put into her.
 
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