DOA5U "I have no choice, but to fight!" Kasumi's Gameplay DOA5U discussion
- Thread starter J.D.E.
- Start date
Agreed, but I'd like to hear other opinions about things before I always go to blame the online circumstances. Weird things also happen in offline matches, and since Allan stated that the explanation he gave me is valid as well as that it is not even an issue for him (what means it also wouldn't be an online issue), I'd like to hear why he has no doubts about that.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
A hit-box issue that was present with her was 6K before they lowered it, and it caused a new issue when that happened and that is her 236T BnB timing is now off slightly. Certain crush attacks to still blow it up but that was a downside to the attack for as along as I could remember. For wherever reason it took TN forever to return it to its previous state which is where it is now.
What you are talking about is not a hit-box issue and it has everything to do with the hurt-box of the character. If you want to call it a hit-box issue then I guess it is a hit-box issue.
I do not know about you but I can see and tell when someone is SE. That player was doing it whether they knew it or not. What changes are you talking about to the SE system? I know that if you SE quickly in a circular motion you should achieve the fastest SE but from me playing around with it the old ways still work just fine and seeing what happened to you in that video further proves that. Even if it was unintentional.
No, that does not mean that. You tried to strike him with a 17i attack at a rare moment in which they SE and came out of it crouching. The stun from 6P lowers a character's hurt-box, you can see that no character in the game stands at their normal height when you land it on CH. Now when you add in how they SE that slow attack missed, if you followed up with Punch, 8K, or Kick you would be fine. You still are fine with H+K and I have explained that already.
What you experienced is easily dealt with now that you are aware of the possibility of the attack whiffing. Like I mentioned, low throws work, H+K still would work, Punch, Kick, and 8K. All of those options give you the same thing H+K would have given you more or less in that situation. I could further explain that too if you want? Since you have multiple ways of dealing with that, I don't know how it is an issue. Where 6K nothing could be done with it before when it was used not to extend a stun, you simply got beat out or beaten up for it. That was an issue a hit-box issue to be exact.
Online can also be the main problem as to why you missed more than anything. I forget those replays do not show the conditions in which players play in. It is the main reason I dislike them and players posting them when they play well known players or just in general to show how "good" they are. To ask for help is cool but they are rarely used in that way. Anyway, by frame rates spiking up and down who knows how much advantage that player SE off and was able to go into a crouching state while they were doing it.
I am not giving you opinions on anything. I am explaining to you how the game is working when certain things are done. As well as giving you solutions to your "problem".
What you are talking about is not a hit-box issue and it has everything to do with the hurt-box of the character. If you want to call it a hit-box issue then I guess it is a hit-box issue.
I do not know about you but I can see and tell when someone is SE. That player was doing it whether they knew it or not. What changes are you talking about to the SE system? I know that if you SE quickly in a circular motion you should achieve the fastest SE but from me playing around with it the old ways still work just fine and seeing what happened to you in that video further proves that. Even if it was unintentional.
No, that does not mean that. You tried to strike him with a 17i attack at a rare moment in which they SE and came out of it crouching. The stun from 6P lowers a character's hurt-box, you can see that no character in the game stands at their normal height when you land it on CH. Now when you add in how they SE that slow attack missed, if you followed up with Punch, 8K, or Kick you would be fine. You still are fine with H+K and I have explained that already.
What you experienced is easily dealt with now that you are aware of the possibility of the attack whiffing. Like I mentioned, low throws work, H+K still would work, Punch, Kick, and 8K. All of those options give you the same thing H+K would have given you more or less in that situation. I could further explain that too if you want? Since you have multiple ways of dealing with that, I don't know how it is an issue. Where 6K nothing could be done with it before when it was used not to extend a stun, you simply got beat out or beaten up for it. That was an issue a hit-box issue to be exact.
Online can also be the main problem as to why you missed more than anything. I forget those replays do not show the conditions in which players play in. It is the main reason I dislike them and players posting them when they play well known players or just in general to show how "good" they are. To ask for help is cool but they are rarely used in that way. Anyway, by frame rates spiking up and down who knows how much advantage that player SE off and was able to go into a crouching state while they were doing it.
I am not giving you opinions on anything. I am explaining to you how the game is working when certain things are done. As well as giving you solutions to your "problem".
I was not sure if the all of the "old" ways are still working because they did not work for me back the time were I started to learn and use stagger escape and still do not. I remember getting them from a thread when DOA5U came out, were people compared their old way (inputting opposite directional controls) and I actually don't know if the way with the circular motion worked before in DOA5 too. Since the ingame tutorial also only covers the way with circular input, I was referring to the changes between DOA5 vanilla and Ultimate, which are, as you say, non-existent. So yeah, looks like my replay is a proof that it still works that way too.
Well, since it seemed to be a rare moment were I used it (after watching the replay again, it even might be that it turned out like that because I hesitated a bit after hitting 6P) and there are still other opportunities, I would agree that this is not an issue nothing could be done with like the 6K example you gave. However, if you like to give me some further explanation, I'd really like to hear it.
Indeed, online can be a reason for whiffed attacks too and since I'm forced to play online most of the time although I don't want to develop or adapt to bad online habits, I'm asking you guys who have more experience with offline gameplay and what things should work and which should not. That way, it's easier for me to know what is true online stupidity without getting doubts about my own actions and knowledge and getting upset about situations like that. Those discussions might also help other players too imo.
So far, thanks a lot for your explanations and solutions.
I know that this isn't a Phase 4 forum, but taking her to the lab looking at the stuff that she has for the sake of the interest in her, can actually be exciting but she will also make you appreciate what Kasumi is a lot more. She suffers a lot more than Kasumi in the safety issues & she's forced to commit to teleports & tick throwing about 75% of the time. The only category that I can think of off the top of my head that she beats Kasumi in is damage. Her air throw doesn't scale so don't be surprised if you see tons of juggling teleport T'ing enders. Still, in terms of neutral game, us Kasumi players have a lot to be thankful for in comparison to Phase 4 aka Kasumi Alpha.
Phase 4:
H+K, 33K, 3K, P, PP, PPP, 2P, 6P, 8P, 3P+KP, 66PPP+K & 2K are key on block since they're her safest bet. 3PP, 66K, P+K, 6PK she has to commit to if block & can be punished hardbody for them.
Kasumi:
P, PP, 6P, 4P, 3P, 2P, 3K, 2K, 8P, 6PK/PP6PK, 66PPP+K, 33K, 4H+K, 66K~K 4KK are her safest bet on block.
They're both great on the wall & ceiling. Another thing that I found when I was in the lab was Kasumi's parries vs Phase 4's important tools. When I parried 3P, it came out to +13 for Kasumi, add the 5 frames it takes to recover it's -18 for her. I parried H+K & it came out to be -7 add the 5 to it's -12. I also parried 1PP & it was -9 without the 5 frames it takes to recover. I don't expect Phase 4 to just chuck out 3P however since it's -8 on block or 1P (1PP) for that matter.
I mean just from 236T she can get just off of the simple juggle 4K 6PKT for like 93 on CH & like 70+ on some of her juggles just on NH. That's how strong she is. Honestly, the real reason why people want to play her (I do too but there's work still left to be done here with Kasumi) is because of the unique & stylish juggles. You already have people complaining about her when they were people that were trying to tell the whole entire time that her & Kasumi were 2 different characters, but share a few of the same characteristics. Now look, there are people already ready to drop her. However, at the end of the day, it will take someone who really & truly puts the time & effort into her to show how good that she really can be. I like her a lot though.
Phase 4:
H+K, 33K, 3K, P, PP, PPP, 2P, 6P, 8P, 3P+KP, 66PPP+K & 2K are key on block since they're her safest bet. 3PP, 66K, P+K, 6PK she has to commit to if block & can be punished hardbody for them.
Kasumi:
P, PP, 6P, 4P, 3P, 2P, 3K, 2K, 8P, 6PK/PP6PK, 66PPP+K, 33K, 4H+K, 66K~K 4KK are her safest bet on block.
They're both great on the wall & ceiling. Another thing that I found when I was in the lab was Kasumi's parries vs Phase 4's important tools. When I parried 3P, it came out to +13 for Kasumi, add the 5 frames it takes to recover it's -18 for her. I parried H+K & it came out to be -7 add the 5 to it's -12. I also parried 1PP & it was -9 without the 5 frames it takes to recover. I don't expect Phase 4 to just chuck out 3P however since it's -8 on block or 1P (1PP) for that matter.
I mean just from 236T she can get just off of the simple juggle 4K 6PKT for like 93 on CH & like 70+ on some of her juggles just on NH. That's how strong she is. Honestly, the real reason why people want to play her (I do too but there's work still left to be done here with Kasumi) is because of the unique & stylish juggles. You already have people complaining about her when they were people that were trying to tell the whole entire time that her & Kasumi were 2 different characters, but share a few of the same characteristics. Now look, there are people already ready to drop her. However, at the end of the day, it will take someone who really & truly puts the time & effort into her to show how good that she really can be. I like her a lot though.
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I do like Phase 4's 3P+KP though. That's an amazing gap closer that also serves as a whiff punish since it does knockback & wallsplats. Plus, it's safe at -4 if blocked which means she can keep her pressure going, being right up in your face. It's not to say that Kasumi's 3P+KP isn't good because it's great. Kasumi's if blocked you're punished, but if it hits, depending where you are, it will either poke, put them into a sit-down (that has 66K guaranteed) stun both allow you to keep your offense going, or wallsplat. But both of them can be ducked or SS'd. IDK which one that I would prefer, but Phase 4's is pretty amazing.
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Soaring Zero
Active Member
Phase 4 does make appreciate Kasumi's options much more. I like Phase 4 a lot and I'll be honest, it is partly due to her stylish combos. But she is much harder to play with than Kasumi. It's like the areas where Kasumi has a hard time, Phase 4 has an even harder time especially against opponents that are familiar with Kasumi. But she's still fun to play on the side and I think playing with Phase 4 will help me improve a bit with Kasumi especially with my neutral game.
iShartRainbows
Member
I need some help fighting helena. For some reason I choke when fighting against her. Tips guys?
Well, 4P and 2P are what you should use in that fight. Since Kasumi's 6P has a weird hitbox, it will whiff in most cases when Helena is in her BKO. In spacing, I would recommend using 9K and 1K sometimes, although the best thing is trying to hit her with 4P since it's your major move for such situations. Don't rely too much on 66K.
Helena is not the best character for spacing games, she lacks of range and tools to get in. Most Helena players will try to come in with her low kick that stuns on normal hit (sorry, I don't know the input), so keep an eye on that and low hold.
Using Kasumi's mid parry can also help a lot, especially when you see that Helena is doing her handslaps.
Helena is not the best character for spacing games, she lacks of range and tools to get in. Most Helena players will try to come in with her low kick that stuns on normal hit (sorry, I don't know the input), so keep an eye on that and low hold.
Using Kasumi's mid parry can also help a lot, especially when you see that Helena is doing her handslaps.
panicitstylor
Well-Known Member
It's finally here! The Ultimate Kasumi Guide! 
I hope you all learn something! Enjoy!
I hope you all learn something! Enjoy!
4H+K into 66K isn't guaranteed. It can be held if they slow escape it. 9K isn't guaranteed after H+K either. When the opponent slow escapes it you'll just get a knockdown. Even if they don't slow escape it the fastest, your juggle will still be altered. I did this against Allan Paris, Dallaz, Shade Swifteye, & Requiem & it messed up my combo.
You can get this online because it's harder to slow escape, but offline against ppl who know how to fight her, no. You can check out the matches that I had with them at KiT for further reference. 6P6K isn't guaranteed after H+K, either. When the opponent slow escapes 6P6K, the 6P whiffs due to the hitbox issue. Even in open space. Even if they don't slow escape it in enough time for you not to get the full combo, you're juggle is still altered.
For 66T, 7K, 6PK, 6P6K, 4PK, 3P, are guaranteed. You guys also didn't explain what the opponent can do to get around the setups. I'll have to sit down & look at all of it so in case there's something else missed, when I can make a video on match up situations & her parries with my friend who said that he would, I can go behind you guys correct it & credit you for it. I'm not trying to make your work feel bad at all because you both done really well with it. Just corrected some obvious things so that people aren't misinformed.
Overall, good shit.. Really nice setups. Good info.
You can get this online because it's harder to slow escape, but offline against ppl who know how to fight her, no. You can check out the matches that I had with them at KiT for further reference. 6P6K isn't guaranteed after H+K, either. When the opponent slow escapes 6P6K, the 6P whiffs due to the hitbox issue. Even in open space. Even if they don't slow escape it in enough time for you not to get the full combo, you're juggle is still altered.
For 66T, 7K, 6PK, 6P6K, 4PK, 3P, are guaranteed. You guys also didn't explain what the opponent can do to get around the setups. I'll have to sit down & look at all of it so in case there's something else missed, when I can make a video on match up situations & her parries with my friend who said that he would, I can go behind you guys correct it & credit you for it. I'm not trying to make your work feel bad at all because you both done really well with it. Just corrected some obvious things so that people aren't misinformed.
Overall, good shit.
. Really nice setups. Good info.
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Can't reproduce that, I always get the bounce for the juggle after it.
RenderingStar
Well-Known Member
9K is guranteed after H+K you can slow escape the combo but h+k into 9k is guranteeded
6p6k is also guaranteed I tried it this morning and I couldn't slow escape and I also tried this with @Younan and we couldn't slow escape either but I'll go back into lab and try it again
Also p can be ducked from 66t.t the oppenent can literally crouch the move or 2p you
6p6k is also guaranteed I tried it this morning and I couldn't slow escape and I also tried this with @Younan and we couldn't slow escape either but I'll go back into lab and try it again
Also p can be ducked from 66t.t the oppenent can literally crouch the move or 2p you
The AI does not even SE the juggle, I can always do PKK6K at least.
Yeah 6P6K is definitely wrong. I SE'd & blocked it in open space. 9K I'm checking it again myself & then when my cousin (Monstar, new member to DOA community) gets back I'm going to again. How are you checking & slow escaping it, Star?
Edit: Also, that P was a typo error. I meant to put 4PK after 66T. Sorry about that.
Edit: Also, that P was a typo error. I meant to put 4PK after 66T. Sorry about that.
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RenderingStar
Well-Known Member
I went offline had friend do it to me and I even let the Ai do it to me and vice versa as I've checked 6p6k multiple times and I'm more than positive it works I even did it in actual game play against sweet revenge and he slow escapes on fastest that being said it's only guranteed in open stance maybe you the other person did it to slow but I know for a fact that it works
RenderingStar
Well-Known Member
Sorry for all the typos i was out to lunch. All I'm saying is that I've tried it multiple times all in different scenarios
so im more than positive 6p6k is guaranteed only in open stance. If anything why don't you try it and get back to me
so im more than positive 6p6k is guaranteed only in open stance. If anything why don't you try it and get back to me