Macca Beam
Well-Known Member
i thought this series has constantly been making improvements to hold and guaranteed damage but that's still by far the most bitched about subject. kinda curious what it would play like without holds altogether
I'm honestly getting tired of dealing with people's opinions on DOA
- Thread starter TRI Mike
- Start date
OriginalVizion7
Member
Team Ninja should never get rid of holds. It's part of why DOA is so awsome including the interactive stages and danger zones. Fuck the haters. TN shouldn't turn this series into another generic fighter.
Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
You already know EXACTLY what they are going to point to and fuck. That. Shit.
If people cannot adapt to having a way to stop damage before it gets guaranteed because they can't vary their approach in combos, then that's on them period.
I will be damned if they remove the one main thing that makes DOA DOA because they can't handle it, they can go fuck off with that shit.
Team Ninja has made a lot of improvements to DOA from the cesspool that is DOA4 to DOA5 & DOA6, and agree that holds should stay, but if you're familiar with SoulCalibur, Tekken & Virtua Fighter, something just seems off with how DOA feels and/or plays. Has nothing to do with being a "generic fighter". As much as some ignorant morons may state it on other websites, DOA is FAR from a generic fighter in both visual style, characters and gameplay. I don't want to turn this into a "What DOA can do better" thread, but I can make some suggestions that could potentially help DOA out mechanically.
- Remove the ability to move at the start of a round (R1F)
- Allow proper sidestep punishes beyond just the 2/8S~S single strike attack (though sidesteps work well now)
- Allow throw breaks on command grabs in neutral in general (I.e. not hi-counter), though offensive holds should remain unbreakable
- Fix the mechanics so lows never hit an opponent in an air-state
- Consider removing critical holds (the ability to hold in stun, NOT in general), and thus make Break Holds replace critical holds or have critical holds cost some meter (i.e. meter is used to escape stun)
- Consider not having counter-hits on backsteps
Overall DOA6 is a step in the right direction with shortened stuns, consistent launch heights, and improved sidesteps but feel that the average FG player will still somewhat scuff at the mechanics. It's really easy to just say "fuck those people", but as was mentioned earlier, DOA needs to grow and can't really stagnate.
- Remove the ability to move at the start of a round (R1F)
- Allow proper sidestep punishes beyond just the 2/8S~S single strike attack (though sidesteps work well now)
- Allow throw breaks on command grabs in neutral in general (I.e. not hi-counter), though offensive holds should remain unbreakable
- Fix the mechanics so lows never hit an opponent in an air-state
- Consider removing critical holds (the ability to hold in stun, NOT in general), and thus make Break Holds replace critical holds or have critical holds cost some meter (i.e. meter is used to escape stun)
- Consider not having counter-hits on backsteps
Overall DOA6 is a step in the right direction with shortened stuns, consistent launch heights, and improved sidesteps but feel that the average FG player will still somewhat scuff at the mechanics. It's really easy to just say "fuck those people", but as was mentioned earlier, DOA needs to grow and can't really stagnate.
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Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
That's because it it's own entity... why should it try to feel like any of those other games?
I understand what you are saying but the game... should be it's own game, first and foremost and I'd rather Dead or Alive be unique because that's what it is then try to emulate something it's not.
Again, fighting game players love saying how much they can adapt but if they can't put money where their mouth is and can't adapt unless it's more like X, then why cater to them?
N1ce Dreams
Well-Known Member
You both have good points, "Fix the mechanics so lows never hit an opponent in an air-state" This is something I can see them adjusting or fixing in time maybe, and yes DoA should always keep being DoA.
At this point it's not about DOA "being its own entity", DOA does a lot of things that other 3D fighting games can't even touch it from its stages, to its visuals, and the like. It's just that when you're familiar with other fighting games, certain things begin to stand out, and not really for the better. I will let you know that I'm technically more familiar with DOA mechanically than SC, VF or Tekken and acknowledge that being different for the sake of differentiation isn't really good in DOA's case because: A) It's already hard to get fighting game players into 3D fighters in general outside of Tekken B) It's even harder to get fighting game players into DOA with its obscure mechanics and damaging stigmas. It's one thing to be niche forever (which DOA likely will be anyway), but DOA has to make a genuine concerted effort to try and grow competitively and sadly, I suspect the way to do that is to make the game feel a little closer to VF (and Tekken to a lesser extent, minus its movement). Having a "fuck those people" mentality is a great way to stay niche forever and not grow the audience.
After playing the DOA6 beta, I'm actually unsure if DOA's movement per se needs to be improved. I actually like how DOA feels to have more emphasis on ring positioning than always trying to set up launch whiff punishes for instance. Footsies and spacing is still there. But as much as I hate to say it, critical holds being done potentially pretty much every time you get stunned is a bit silly (so many people mash out low holds in stun for instance, myself included). At least with meter, it becomes a management based risk on top of potential hi-counter throw damage. Even with the adjustments I recommended, DOA would still essentially feel unique to SC, VF or Tekken. Hell, nothing really feels like SoulCalibur anyway haha.
Soul Calibur doesn't even feel like Soul Calibur anymore. The bar is gone. All hope is lost.
Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
And yes, that's sadly how it always is. You don't think Virtua Fighter players wasn't in the same boat as DOA in their twilight years? Trying desperately to keep their game relevant as all they kept getting was continuous revamps that slowly made VF into a discount Tekken which they hated?
I'm not trying to say that you aren't making a point, you do but you have to understand that there is limits to this, even @Brute pointed that out with how Soul Calibur is barely even SC anymore due to the continual sweeping changes and those who heavily disagree with RE to this day. It's basically a slippery slope in trying to cater to those people as there's only so much you can do before you drive away your bread and butter for the CHANCE that those you are catering to will be the permanent residents.
Well the thing with VF is that regardless of the daunting complexity of the mechanics, the VF games have almost no casual appeal whatsoever and almost nothing to bring in or appeal to casuals. The visual & audio design is horrendously dated by current gaming standards. Competitively, VF is on the other end of the spectrum where it has the stigma of being "Too Hard". On the bright side VF generally does well in Japan, though not having a new installment in over a decade doesn't really help it out unfortunately. Basically if VF had DOA's visuals & presentation and possibly toned down the complexity a tad (like how VF5FS simplified itself a bit compared to VF5), along with having content to appeal to casuals, the game would likely be better received overall (though long-term OG VF players would probably despise it...). Assuming that said hypothetical VF6 gets promoted adequatedly.
As for SCVI, it made both good moves and bad moves. Focusing on the popular main roster as opposed to whatever the hell SCV's roster was, was a good move. Implementing Reversal Edge was a bad move, which I bitch about too. Adding RE to SC was like adding Fatal Rushes to DOA, it did nothing to improve the game as a whole, and is just a thing in each respective game. Both tools are primarily focused at casual players that don't care about competitive play, along with visual spectacle. But when we come down to it, what exactly is the best direction for DOA6 to move in to grow the franchise? Team Ninja, I'm pretty sure, wants the DOA franchise to grow. They could just create a new IP too, though simply being by "The DOA developer" will lead to its own stigmas potentially.
Well, according to Shimbori, it should require only one finger to play. So we could start by ditching the face buttons and movement controls, and jump straight to the DS4's touchpad.
N1ce Dreams
Well-Known Member
Tbh, that one button can do a lot of things, it's quite impressive. Also it's something you can't just spam against any half decent player.
Well yeah, but majority of the time when Shimbori showed off DOA6 & the Fatal Rush feature, did he generally have to put emphasis on the fact that he was just pushing one button over & over? It was quite cringeworthy to watch.
To use its different functions you have to press multiple buttons using multiple fingers, unless you've somehow discovered a way to hit 4/6 and the special button with only one finger at the same time.
N1ce Dreams
Well-Known Member
I know what you mean, I guess it was a way of showing he isn't pushing tough button inputs for the new special button. Something the casuals and new people could understand, DoA isn't as big or as known as the likes of Tekken after all.
Maybe, I could use my tongue.
"One finger" doesn't mean "one finger and your tongue."
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
At this point I honestly think we'd be better off with a totally new IP that had similar environmental shenanigans but a more traditional take on combos. It'd be more popular in the FGC and it'd escape the stigma that is DOA.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Holds were only an issue in doa4 and somewhat in doa5 because of the heavy stun game and in doa4 you could hold out of anything. It wasn't an issue in doa2 and 3, and so far it wont be an issue in 6 either as there are plenty of options to avoid it and throw damage on hi-counter throw was really high in the beta.
Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
Nah, people would then just point to that it's made by Team Ninja and believe it will be exactly like DOA see Dissidia by them awhile back.
Ninoasker
Well-Known Member
My favorite part is when people used to say things by the lines of “omg they are gonna put DOA characters on it Dissidia is ruined
“ just because it was TN making it lol