Kokoro Change log

Bushido

Well-Known Member
This move isn't useless at all. Maybe in neutral it's garbage, but it's not half bad in stun. It provides more mix-up in the stun game and after 6P hits. Kokoro's a mix-up character, and we got more mix-up. Plus, it's +33 on NH, and +23 on fastest SE. The mix-up potential in that alone is stupid.
 

the space cadet

Active Member
^ I applaud you for breaking the trend of other Kokoro users that spend more time complaining about what they can't do, rather than discovering what they can do.

First, let's not act like anyone actually used a 22 frame attack in the stun game. So why is it suddenly such a vital move now? Answer: It isn't, and it never was. I'm going to make the assumption that I don't need to explain why a 22 frame strike in the stun game is rarely used, if at all.

It was a garbage move in neutral in Ultimate, and it still retains that title in LR. For me personally, the only time I ever used it was when I'd sneak it in after a heichu grab. That's it. And I rarely ever did that.

However, since the complaint is the faint stun, then that means the discussion is using it in stun. And to use it in stun, you therefore need a stun that allows a massive 22 frame strike to connect. Translation: you essentially are only gonna use it after 9P.

So we already know that only 6P and 2P connect on the faint stun. What baffles me is why this is supposedly a nerf? They're GUARANTEED since you can't hold out of the faint stun. Sounds closer to a buff to me.

6P essentially puts the opponent in a must hold situation. It took 5 minutes in the dojo to find 6KP will launch into a 66P+K heichu juggle.

On a 9P initiated stun, doing P+K > 6P > 6KP > 66P+K is 79 dmg. I'm calling it a "must hold" after the 6P because, well, you eat the launcher otherwise. Fastest SE does not save you.

Also factor in that 2P (again, guaranteed after the faint) resets. Again, I'm just gonna assume it's already known what the benefit of that is.

So, is it a nerf? Well, I suppose that depends on who's looking at it...
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
Answer me this. Why would you go with P+K rather than 4P+K? Why would you extend the mixup when you can launch with another move that hits at the same height and is of equivalent speed? I for one used that move regularly. Now I won't be using it. Not in the same way at least, and using it in its new way seems unproductive.

Completely useless? Well, all moves have their uses, but it can be considered useless if there are other moves with similar speeds and even faster speeds that give better options at all ranges. The move was a nice gap closer before, now it's putting yourself in danger at range... Let's put things into context for a second.

If the opponent blocks P+K in the prior version, you'd have frame advantage, which would let you keep your pressure. If the opponent blocks it now, you'll be giving the opponent a free grab punish since it's unsafe.
If the opponent fails to block and it hits on normal hit, which rarely ever happens in a real DOA fight, you do get a nice stun, but it's nothing that 8P wouldn't give you, and 8P has follow-ups and mixups in case the opponent does block, making it a safer move than P+K for yourself, and a more hard to defend against move for your opponent.
If in the past P+K hit on counter hit, you'd get a launcher for immediate damage through a basic juggle. If it hits on counter hit now, all you can do is 6P or 2P, where the opponent has options to defend afterwards.

The move has been heavily nerfed, whether you accept it or not.
 

Heikou

Active Member
Standard Donor
I agree with @NightAntilli for the most part.
Like he said, in stun, she has launchers like 46P that are faster than P+K, and gaurantee decent damage or oki depending on how you juggle the opponent. She also has moves which give you a much longer stun, which results in better mixup potential.
You can basically only use P+K in stun if you use it very early in stun, and you either caught the opponent with a move that causes a lift stun, or they try holding a mid kick / punch. Even though it does put the opponent in a must hold situation if you use 9P or 6KP after 6P, it just feels like she has better options.

I'd call using that move impractical for now because she just seems to have better options for just about everything that P+K can be used for. It can't be used for block pressure and isn't good for closing space now that it's throw punishable on block. She also has much faster (and safer) options for whiff punishing, some of which reach farther than P+K does. It's bad as a meaty now that it's not + on block as well.

It was also never really used often in the stun game, as all it did was launch and she had better options for that most of the time. But TN seemed to change it from a move that was supposed to be used in the neutral game to a move supposed to be used in the stun game, so it's natural that we'd try to use it that way. Using 2P to reset doesn't leave you at a huge advantage, and unless your opponent's back is to a wall, doesn't leave you with any particularly dirty options.

I'm calling it a nerf because it took away a tool that she doesn't have a comparable replacement for, and changed it to be used as a tool in stun for mixup, which she already has more than enough of. Its mixup potential doesn't seem great on top of that. It'd be cool if I could see someone using it in a creative way, and I'll happily take back what I've said if someone proves me wrong.

It's not a big nerf because she still has all of what makes Kokoro the character she is, I'm just clarifying on why I wouldn't consider it a buff.
 

the space cadet

Active Member
First, let's not act like anyone actually used a 22 frame attack in the stun game. So why is it suddenly such a vital move now? Answer: It isn't, and it never was.

However, since the complaint is the faint stun, then that means the discussion is using it in stun. And to use it in stun, you therefore need a stun that allows a massive 22 frame strike to connect. Translation: you essentially are only gonna use it after 9P.

Answer me this. Why would you go with P+K rather than 4P+K? Why would you extend the mixup when you can launch with another move that hits at the same height and is of equivalent speed?

The move has been heavily nerfed, whether you accept it or not.
You do realize that I'm saying P+K isn't a good move in stun, right? And you noticed that the only reason I mentioned what is possible after the faint stun is simply because the complaint was the perception that there's nothing viable from that situation, right?

I notice that virtually all your posts about Kokoro pertain to what she can't do, thus you spend all your time only dwelling on your own perception of what you individually can't do. You set up your own hurdles, so it's no surprise that, once again, you only see deficiancies.

First, let's not act like anyone actually used a 22 frame attack in the stun game. So why is it suddenly such a vital move now? Answer: It isn't, and it never was.

You can basically only use P+K in stun if you use it very early in stun, and you either caught the opponent with a move that causes a lift stun, or they try holding a mid kick / punch. Even though it does put the opponent in a must hold situation if you use 9P or 6KP after 6P, it just feels like she has better options.

It was also never really used often in the stun game
Deja vu?
 

Heikou

Active Member
Standard Donor
It -was- a good move in neutral. It was good as a meaty, and good for closing space since it was +1 on block. It was also a good move to apply block pressure with in certain situations. Now that it's throw punishable on block, there's no reason to use it when other tools offer similar reward without nearly as much risk, and are easier to use as they're faster.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
I notice that virtually all your posts about Kokoro pertain to what she can't do, thus you spend all your time only dwelling on your own perception of what you individually can't do. You set up your own hurdles, so it's no surprise that, once again, you only see deficiancies.
Oh that's funny. Especially since I was posting better alternatives regarding the current P+K.
 
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