Leifang Matchup discussion

[phoenix1985gr]

I'll wait with picking up a character until I see good data instead of guessing.
I suffered enough in a fighting game for sticking with the wrong main for too long.
I want to win this time

I remember you in 8wayrun... Playing with a top tier doesnt mean you ll always win or something its better to just choose a character you re comfortable with plays closer to the style you prefer ango from there...

 

[phoenix1985gr]

I find it kind of funny, in the tier list thread she's been ranked near top countless times, but I don't think there's more than one matchup in the table (Zack loses 7:3) and almost no discussion. It's like everyone says she's top, but no one says why.
I think she has enough tools that she can adapt to every opponent. But many also opponents shut down one or two avenues of her attacks. I personally have a hard time opening up a defensive player with her.
1p+k doesn't have the reach it did anymore. I used it to both cause and punish whiffs - probably an incorrect use.
I'd agree she loses to Gen and Jann and I'd add the VF chars too. Pai's too fast for her, though that one's close.
I think she's a good match for Christie, Helena and Kokoro and she beats Rig too, though that's close as well.
Everyone thinks Eliot's a loser, so I'll put him there and I think Mila is a close win (actually Tina too, though no one will agree with me on that). I can't comment on new Hitomi, but everyone else is likely a draw (though I've probably forgotten some obvious match up).
I'd be interested in thought's on her match up with Brad - I find his evasion beats hers and it annoys me.

Pre patch at least sarah was a pain to fight so maybe she could be higher than lei... Akira and Pai no... Lei is one of the faster characters anyway and speedy chars arent bigger threat to her then they are on slower characters like Bass Tina etc... (if that was the case the 9f jabbers would all be top tiers)... As for Helena i cant commend on her i know i struggle a lot (i prefer fighting jahn lee over her) but i think its my inexperience against her mostly... In paper lei has the better tool with the mid parry and being faster then her but still...

Anyway in this game most matchups are gonna be 5-5 or 6-4 not having many bad ones and having better tools overall just help... I see it like this: most characters play the stun game (some better than others) so having a good mix up game (she does) some guarranteed option that lead to good dmg (she also does) OHs and parries are just gonna make her more strong than Ayane for example where the match up might be even but the tools of one character over another are more...

Plus for defensive opponents she has 2GB that give adv and OH so she has it much easier than other characters opening them up...

Most characters excel at some things she excels at most... The only reason jahn is better then her (pre patch) is because you only had 1 chance to hold or you lose half health and gen being faster and more damaging than her... Sarah could be a pain too cause she has frame adv all over the place... This is at least my somewhat scrubby opinion

 

[GLoRToR]

I remember you in 8wayrun...

Your name rings a bell also Hi there.

Playing with a top tier doesnt mean you ll always win

Obviously not. The ability to beat somebody's character doesn't grant that they aren't more skilled. It's a matter of practice and skill, but I'd be foolish to say that superior tools don't matter - and that is what I'm waiting to see.

its better to just choose a character you re comfortable with

As somebody who has been maining Jade in MK9 since day 1 I can tell you that you are very, very wrong there. You can love a character any one bit or a whole lot, if its tools are ass, you'll be sitting down, I'm sorry to say.

 

[Brute]

Sorry, but I agree with phoenix1985r. Better to choose a character you're comfortable with than one who's top tier easily. My Hayabusa is much more deadly than my Jan Lee, but you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who thinks that Ryu (especially pre-patch) is higher tier than Jan Lee. Ryu just fits my style, and I've spent a lot of time learning him. The same can be done for any character. DOA5 is not so imbalanced that you can't compete effectively unless you're a top tier character. All characters have their own unique merits.

PS: I still sub-main Jade in MK9 next to Rain and Scorpion.

 

[GLoRToR]

DOA5 is not so imbalanced

I've been told the same about MK9 and now look where it is. Unpatched but full of bugs.
I'm intending to main Lei but I'm in no hurry to see whether another character will suit me better.
I don't currently have any time to play console games anyway...

 

[NightAntilli]

I would agree that she is top tier, but below Jann Lee and Gen Fu. She is not as easy to use as most other characters, and that's what makes it hard to get the most out of her potential.

The reason I'd say she's top is that she has pretty much everything.
- She has quite a few crushing moves
- She can parry all standing punches
- She can parry mid attacks
- She can parry while back turned
- She has offensive holds
- She has pretty good mixups
- She has good guaranteed setups
- She has good speed
- She has sabakis

The reason I think she's worse than Jann Lee is because
- She gets zero guaranteed bursts, while Jann Lee gets a few
- Her best OH is from the Unshu stance, which is risky to use, while Jann Lee can get off the dragon gunner off easily and gets more advantage from it than Leifang gets from her Unshu OH.
- Jann Lee is more circular than her. He has high, low and mid circulars that can be used individually, while all of Leifang's circulars that are not highs, are from strings.
- Jann Lee has a much easier time at long range
- Jann Lee outspeeds Leifang at close range with his fast mid punch
- Jann Lee's sidesteps are much better

The reason I think she's slightly worse than Gen Fu is because
- Gen Fu gets a mid kick launcher that can only be sidestepped and not held
- Gen Fu is faster up close
- Gen Fu has a much easier time crushing and evading
- Gen Fu is much easier to use effectively
- Gen Fu gets better sitdown stuns
- He doesn't need a high launch for respectable damage

 

[Brute]

I would agree that she is top tier, but below Jann Lee and Gen Fu. She is not as easy to use as most other characters, and that's what makes it hard to get the most out of her potential.

I would say in terms of easy/hard to use she's right around the middle. I mean, she's certainly not as braindead easy as Tina (sorry Tina players, don't mean to insult you, but your character is ridiculously easy to pick-up), but honestly there are a lot of characters who are much more difficult to use than Lei Fang. Obviously mastering ANY character takes time, dedication and skill, but comparatively I wouldn't say Lei Fang is a very hard character to use. Her combos are easy, her attack speed and crushes give leniency windows if the opponent is not read precisely, she has several moves which beat out multiple options (such as parries) which let's you slightly "cheat" the guessing game, etc.

 

[NightAntilli]

Sure, she's not the hardest. I'd say Ayane, Helena, Akira, are all harder to use. But I don't see many (if any) other characters that are harder to use than her.

 

[Brute]

Sure, she's not the hardest. I'd say Ayane, Helena, Akira, are all harder to use. But I don't see many (if any) other characters that are harder to use than her.

Interesting.

Characters harder to use than Lei Fang in my opinion would be:
Akira, Ayane, Bass Armstrong, Lisa Hamilton, Rig, and Brad Wong.

Characters easier to get the basic functional ropes down but harder to truly master than Lei Fang would be:
Kasumi, Sarah, Pai, Ryu Hayabusa

Characters that I consider generally easier than her would be:
Jan Lee, Bayman, Christie, Eliot, Tina Armstrong, Hayate, Hitomi, Helena Douglas, Gen Fu, Mila, Kokoro

Fuck if I know where Alpha goes. Also I don't get Zack at all, but a lot of people do. I didn't place him. Maybe Lisa and Helena belong in the second section...
Obviously everyone's subject to their own opinions. Some characters just resonate better, which is why we gravitate towards them. Also we all have biases, particularly assuming our own mains are super-difficult to master. xD

 

[phoenix1985gr]

All characters have easy combos (barring the vf characters which some combos have precise timing) the issue with this game and how easy is a character to use is making the right decisions with the tools you have... Thats why (again barring vf chars) i d say ayane is the "hardest" cause she has a more unique playstyle and if you want to use her to her fullest you need proper spacing more than most characters... Leifangs difficulty is to know when to use each defensive action... Choosing from parry to expert hold the unshu parry a crush move or a sabaki at the right time... For me maybe lisa is also one of the more diffcult characters to use cause she relies to much on how to confuse your opponent...

But from a timing - execution type is really non existant here... sure you have expert hold izuna but with practice you re bound to get it, or some of kasumis juggles maybe a bit harder, but for anyone who plays other fighitng games (espcially 2d) saying that doa is execution heavy would be laughed at... The "hard" part in this game is using correctly your character depending on your tools i dont think there is a single cb combo that you need more than a day to master

 

[Brute]

All characters have easy combos (barring the vf characters which some combos have precise timing) the issue with this game and how easy is a character to use is making the right decisions with the tools you have... Thats why (again barring vf chars) i d say ayane is the "hardest" cause she has a more unique playstyle and if you want to use her to her fullest you need proper spacing more than most characters... Leifangs difficulty is to know when to use each defensive action... Choosing from parry to expert hold the unshu parry a crush move or a sabaki at the right time... For me maybe lisa is also one of the more diffcult characters to use cause she relies to much on how to confuse your opponent...

But from a timing - execution type is really non existant here... sure you have expert hold izuna but with practice you re bound to get it, or some of kasumis juggles maybe a bit harder, but for anyone who plays other fighitng games (espcially 2d) saying that doa is execution heavy would be laughed at... The "hard" part in this game is using correctly your character depending on your tools i dont think there is a single cb combo that you need more than a day to master

Exactly. She has more options that overpower that "what to use when" system. For example, if you want to counter, most characters have to guess between a mid/high punch. Lei Fang doesn't (conventionally speaking). Ryu's harder imo not because of his move execution, but because of his options. He's slower up close than LF, menaing you have to be more confident to attack. He has less OHs, meaning you'll be overpowering less going for his holds. The Izuna Otoshi, for example (a normal throw) is risky not because of the input, but because it's over 10 frames execution, so if you want to throw punish with it vs a standard throw, you have to take into consideration it take over twice as long to connect.

Helena to me is all about guessing, and she has such great mix-up potential after to be enter and maintain stun that she's not really that hard to master. You can switch up so much, and chances are your opponent won't guess right,

Obviously LF has her complexities too. Not meaning to trivialize those at all.

 

[phoenix1985gr]

The thing about fang (and most other characters) can be played total rushdown... Shes quite effective like that too but you wont use her to her fullest... But anyway for me in this particular game (not only 5 doa in general) i found all the characters easy to use

 

[Brute]

The thing about fang (and most other characters) can be played total rushdown... Shes quite effective like that too but you wont use her to her fullest... But anyway for me in this particular game (not only 5 doa in general) i found all the characters easy to use

That's cool. I still can't do diddly-squat with Zack and Akira.

 

[NightAntilli]

Maybe it's just me then, but I always found Leifang hard to play with. It just feels like her moves are not that intuitive, and took a while before I actually got her. I guess using Tina, Kokoro and Hitomi in the past made it hard for me to adapt to her xD

 

[Ooobe]

So, if everything is pretty much 5:5 or 6:4, I'd have to conclude the game is better balanced than most people are willing to admit.
I feel that Lei actually plays the way Shimbori originally described Helena (I may have said that before) and if you know what to expect from your opponent you generally have multiple options for every situation and will look godlike. At the same time, if they know what to expect from you, you can be punished for nearly everything. I find Lei very susceptible to people who know when to and like to throw a lot. That ends your stance game, OH's and will beat out some sabaki as well. So to be good with Lei you need to be able to make use of multiple play styles offensively and because of her lack of guarantees you need solid defense since you're not likely to win a round off a few pokes and 2 combos.
Maybe it's a sign of respect for the character that so many players seem to know how to shut/slow her down?

 

[phoenix1985gr]

Maybe it's just me then, but I always found Leifang hard to play with. It just feels like her moves are not that intuitive, and took a while before I actually got her. I guess using Tina, Kokoro and Hitomi in the past made it hard for me to adapt to her xD

Well yeah i ve heard a lot of people say the same thing actually... For me it was like a click from the first game (even more in doa2)


Sabakis eat highcounter throw damage to... They re considered parries so is someone throws you at the same time you ll get beat

 

[Brute]

Maybe it's just me then, but I always found Leifang hard to play with. It just feels like her moves are not that intuitive, and took a while before I actually got her. I guess using Tina, Kokoro and Hitomi in the past made it hard for me to adapt to her xD

Perhaps in past DOA games, but Shimbori's favoritism towards Lei Fang makes a very prominent impact for her in DOA5. She's now much more powerful, intuitive, and easy to use, imo.
I should note that I don't really use Kokoro or Hitomi much. Tina on the other hand is the queen of natural intuition.

 

[Yoyo]

Perhaps in past DOA games, but Shimbori's favoritism towards Lei Fang makes a very prominent impact for her in DOA5. She's now much more powerful, intuitive, and easy to use, imo.
I should note that I don't really use Kokoro or Hitomi much. Tina on the other hand is the queen of natural intuition.

Is she being easy to use a bad thing?

 

[Brute]

Is she being easy to use a bad thing?

No.

Well at least on Lei Fang's side. Tina feels a bit too straightforward to me, so I don't get much reward playing as her. But to each their own.

 

[GLoRToR]

I'm inclined to say at this point that the character with the most available tools is the highest tier in this game.
Even without knowing each individual character, by looking at how the game works I'm willing to say that Lei is in a broad top five, in a narrower top three and I'll risk that she's second only to Jann Lee but this is just one of many opinions on the game.
The previous assessment of tools, opinions that she only suffers on long range and that she needs to be more careful with parries against throwers, coupled with my recent overview of the game through several mediums makes me say that I wholly agree with the opinion above that states that Lei can be played in different ways. And she should be.