Meter: Yay or nay?

[Kirito]

DOA6's most controversial mechanic: the oh-so-popular meter (Break Guage) that's in basically every modern fighting game at this point. It introduces two new offensive options: the Fatal Rush (basically mash S for an unholdable stun if you don't have meter), and the Break Blow (a sabaki that acts similar to a power blow, usable only with full meter). There's also one new defensive option, the Break Hold (a 4-way hold that is your only defensive option against a Fatal Rush in stun, usable only with a full meter).

These moves are tied to a new macro: S (H+P+K). Since this used to be used for sidesteps and taunts, I presume taunts are now gone. Sidesteps have now been changed to be a Sidestep Strike, forcing you to commit to an attack instead of giving you the option of throwing or even performing a different strike.

At its current state, I personally dislike the introduction of a meter into DOA6. Combos are easy enough as it is, so the excuse of giving newbies an easier time against pros is BS. It seems to only be introduced as a justification for having a meter at all. Break Hold could have been interesting, but requiring a full bar of meter, and only giving you paltry frame advantage with nothing guaranteed means the benefit isn't with the cost of using it in a Critical Stun, instead it forces you to save it in the event your opponent uses a Fatal Rush.

Fatal Rush being unholdable save for Break Holds is downright broken. It essentially turns the game into who can get more meter first to save their arse. Shimbori said it always starts as a high attack, and it seems to be relatively unsafe, but it's spammabiliy due to its activation not being tied to the meter itself has to change. I think Fatal Rush combos should also only be used if the meter is full.

What do you guys think? Meter in DOA6: Yay or nay?

I'd vote to remove it as a mechanic altogether. It's an arbitrary way of introducing another layer into the combat without revising current mechanics.

 

[CounterTerrorist]

Meter itself isnt bad, but the new mechanics dont make much sense and look like they need to be worked on. If the actual intent of the break blow is supposed to be Counter-like, in what way is it? Is it just fully invincible against all attacks? How is that fair?
Why waste the meter on the break hold which does virtually no damage and just resets to neutral when you can do some round ending damage with a break blow even after recovering from the rush combo? You basically use the break blow as a hold from idle, except it will "hold" any attack, and attack even if there was nothing coming at you anyway. Its basically like a Mega Hold that will do a junk load of damage, but also it takes no effort at all to use it 'properly' cause it'll skirt past any attack whatsoever...? What about using it as an attack against someone who defends by using their own break blow? If someone has a full meter and they knock you down flat and they're up in your face, you are now unsafe just for existing. They have the higher ground. They could use a break blow on reaction of seeing you do anything but standing to neutral and connect it for free without any intelligible decision of figuring which attack you're waking up with. They dont gotta be quick, they dont gotta be accurate, they dont gotta know which direction to hold, just break blow and bam. The meta of that situation can't be anything but waking up straight into standing followed by getting OH thrown if not standing to frame disadvantage. Getting down to the ground like that used to be a great equalizer, but whoever is first to full-meter will suddenly have an unecessary advantage.

The new mechanics don't make sense from an intentionally intelligent perspective.

Last edit: apparently the break blow is beaten by lows, but that same situation of being knocked down flat against a full meter still exists partially. You basically force your opponent to either wakeup lowkick or wakeup standing, but at least it would take some late timing to determine if a wakeup attack is low or not, but I'm thinking the startup on the break blow doesn't last longer than the wakeup attack's recovery does. Having to wait to check which attack might come at least wont mean an OH can be virtually guaranteed.
Still looks wrong imo.

I would personally prefer if DOA just went back to the basics. No universal sidestep, no super attacks, no critical blows, no power launchers, no power moves. Just dirty fighting at its dirtiest. If anything, maybe the meter could be retained for a non-invincible break blow on neutral S, and the break hold could instead be a 4-point super powered Hold on directional S. I'm not convinced yet that the fatal rush is in there for a good reason and feel it should be dropped.
Thats just me though.

 

[Camel with 2 thumbs]

not a fan of 2d'ifying 3d fighters so yeah, adding meter and supers and what is essentially a burst mechanic in DOA, not a fan.

I feel like these things were added to prevent players from just getting rushed down from beginning to end, and while I applaud that there are definitely better ways to handle it as opposed to borrowing popular features from other games

 

[d3v]

Coming from a background of having played numerous fighting games, most of them with some form of meter, DOA6's system looks to be a simple, but actually well thought out meter system. It has multiple meter powered options that the player must juggle and decide on whether or not they should use them. One option is an offensive tool, your bog standard super move type deal that, bears the usual hallmarks of a super move (deals big damage, beats out a ton of options), the other is a defensive tool that can bail players out of situations, but at the cost of sacrificing damage. They've even added a mechanic (Fatal Stun during Fatal Rush) that works with DOA's current system - creating a situation where meter has to be spent to hold, instead of just using normal holds to get out of combos.

I guess the pushback comes from people mostly playing the game and not really having having much experience with meter powered games. The thing is, 2D fighters also had that period where people where iffy about adding meter. But in the long run, it generally turned out to be better - adding another layer of complexity and depth to the games. Because that's what meter does, it adds options that expands the way the game is played. Take for example, going back into the history of the genre when meter was first introduced, Street Fighter Alpha 2. Sure, you can play the game like you did Street Fighter 2 (being the closest in the Alpha series to the original SFII), but the game opens up, and becomes more interesting once you factor in all the stuff meter added - alpha counters, multi-level supers, custom combos, etc.

Honestly, my only complaint is that the current design of Break Blows is too generic, and I wish we'd get characters with unique Break Blows, that change match ups in unique and interesting ways.

 

[Camel with 2 thumbs]

I guess the pushback comes from people mostly playing the game and not really having having much experience with meter powered games.

I play hella 2d games and I still think its dumb, but I'll wait till I get my hands on it before i get too critical

 

[CyberEvil]

Meter is happening. Not really much of a point in discussing it in this manner. The new core mechanics are based around its inclusion so it's definitely not getting removed. People hated on Power Blows and so forth in 5 as well. You get used to new mechanics when they are just the mechanics in the game you're playing.

 

[CounterTerrorist]

Coming from a background of having played numerous fighting games, most of them with some form of meter, DOA6's system looks to be a simple, but actually well thought out meter system. It has multiple meter powered options that the player must juggle and decide on whether or not they should use them. One option is an offensive tool, your bog standard super move type deal that, bears the usual hallmarks of a super move (deals big damage, beats out a ton of options), the other is a defensive tool that can bail players out of situations, but at the cost of sacrificing damage. They've even added a mechanic (Fatal Stun during Fatal Rush) that works with DOA's current system - creating a situation where meter has to be spent to hold, instead of just using normal holds to get out of combos.

I guess the pushback comes from people mostly playing the game and not really having having much experience with meter powered games. The thing is, 2D fighters also had that period where people where iffy about adding meter. But in the long run, it generally turned out to be better - adding another layer of complexity and depth to the games. Because that's what meter does, it adds options that expands the way the game is played. Take for example, going back into the history of the genre when meter was first introduced, Street Fighter Alpha 2. Sure, you can play the game like you did Street Fighter 2 (being the closest in the Alpha series to the original SFII), but the game opens up, and becomes more interesting once you factor in all the stuff meter added - alpha counters, multi-level supers, custom combos, etc.

Honestly, my only complaint is that the current design of Break Blows is too generic, and I wish we'd get characters with unique Break Blows, that change match ups in unique and interesting ways.

2D fighters are shallow and boring and require meters, or anything extra at all, to spice them up to be interesting though. It's not a real comparison.

Meter is happening. Not really much of a point in discussing it in this manner. The new core mechanics are based around its inclusion so it's definitely not getting removed. People hated on Power Blows and so forth in 5 as well. You get used to new mechanics when they are just the mechanics in the game you're playing.

Yeah well 5 was a downturn for the series. It wouldn't make much sense to make all the same mistakes with 6 as they made with 5.

 

[CyberEvil]

2D fighters are shallow and boring and require meters, or anything extra at all, to spice them up to be interesting though. It's not a real comparison.

You understand what an opinion is, yes? Don't state one as fact. I'm going to let the inevitable responses play out for fun.

EDIT: And don't double post. I'm merging it once for free. Do it again and it's a warning.

 

[CounterTerrorist]

You understand what an opinion is, yes? Don't state one as fact. I'm going to let the inevitable responses play out for fun.

EDIT: And don't double post. I'm merging it once for free. Do it again and it's a warning.

Theres really no reason for you to be a mod, cool it dude.

 

[Brute]

You get used to new mechanics when they are just the mechanics in the game you're playing.

Perhaps. But if the mechanics are bad enough, you simply stop playing the game.

 

[CyberEvil]

Perhaps. But if the mechanics are bad enough, you simply stop playing the game.

Or don't start at all, which could happen. Most people will try, especially if a F2P version drops, and people who don't like it will bounce. Happens with all games. The trick is at least trying things instead of piling on based on a tiny snippet.

 

[Brute]

The trick is at least trying things instead of piling on based on a tiny snippet.

I'll try it. I suspect nearly everyone here will. But that doesn't mean that we should simply shut-up and support anything touted until then.
You don't always have to try a stupid idea in order to know that it's not going to work well.

Imagine that TN said "DOA will no longer use strikes and holds. Instead, it will exclusively center around the use of throws and fuzzy guarding." You would try it, but you wouldn't have to in order to tell that the mechanic wasn't good (unless you completely lacked critical thinking).

The meter system doesn't sound as dumb as the hyperbolic analogy above, obviously, but I strongly doubt that it will play out well unless it sees some major revision.

 

[CyberEvil]

I'll try it. I suspect nearly everyone here will. But that doesn't mean that we should simply shut-up and support anything touted until then.
You don't always have to try a stupid idea in order to know that it's not going to work well.

Imagine that TN said "DOA will no longer use strikes and holds. Instead, it will exclusively center around the use of throws and fuzzy guarding." You would try it, but you wouldn't have to in order to tell that the mechanic wasn't good (unless you completely lacked critical thinking).

The meter system doesn't sound as dumb as the hyperbolic analogy above, obviously, but I strongly doubt that it will play out well unless it sees some major revision.

Agreed. I think if something is clearly going against what people are looking for we SHOULD speak up. But special meter isn't THAT much different than Power Blows being locked to 50% health and it worked fine in SCV (though that game was rough for other reasons). I think TN can do it properly and it'll be fun, but we will have to see.

Ninja Gaiden was a massive shift from the original franchise (it also didn't start life as Ninja Gaiden exactly but that's not relevant here) but TN did their thing and it's my favorite gaming franchise of all time, with DoA close behind. I'm more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and support the new systems. Shimbori loves hardcore DoA as much as most of us do and won't add something that feels unnatural.

I do dislike the 'S' button though lol and the auto-combo. That is wholly unnecessary given how easy to play DoA is.

 

[Brute]

special meter isn't THAT much different than Power Blows being locked to 50% health

That mechanic was terrible, IMO.

I'm more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and support the new systems. Shimbori loves hardcore DoA as much as most of us do and won't add something that feels unnatural.

I'm a skeptic. It's what I do.

I do dislike the 'S' button though lol and the auto-combo. That is wholly unnecessary given how easy to play DoA is.

Exactly. We don't necessarily need to try out some of these features to tell that they're not good.

 

[CyberEvil]

That mechanic was terrible, IMO.


I'm a skeptic. It's what I do.


Exactly. We don't necessarily need to try out some of these features to know they're not good.

At the very least the last one won't be necessary aside from the sidestep attacks which can hopefully be remapped. I intend to not map that button if I can avoid it. Messes with like 15 years of muscle memory.

 

[KasumiLover]

I'm mixed by it, I don't like the addition of a new button(S) and I don't like the fatal rush shit. If that's really gonna be a thing, make it have a FULL meter cost or something because I don't like the idea of it just being able to be used out of nowhere, that's total ass. Break blows I'm fine with as long as it's full meter but if blocked or misses that meter should be gone, hit or not. Same with break hold, if an opponent baits you to use it and you don't get a successful hold, that meter needs to go bye bye. I don't want it like in DOA5 where when you did PBs on block or whiffed or hit an opponent in the air, you still kept that PB until it hit. All the special break attacks and Fatal rush shit should be gone no matter if it hits or not.

Fatal rush should probably be one time round use if they don't tie it to having full meter

 

[Camel with 2 thumbs]

Meter is happening. Not really much of a point in discussing it in this manner. The new core mechanics are based around its inclusion so it's definitely not getting removed. People hated on Power Blows and so forth in 5 as well. You get used to new mechanics when they are just the mechanics in the game you're playing.

I definitely hated on powerblows when I first saw them, I was mad peeved that sf4 style ultras were creeping into doa, and 6 years of playing and enjoying doa5 didn't really change my mind. Guess I'll strap up for another 6 years of hating on mechanics while enjoying the game.

But can we all agree that S S S S autocombos are a terrible idea

 

[deathofaninja]

I feel like it doesn't look good on paper, but I'm definitely going to try it. Something tells me it's going to be a lot of fun.

 

[CounterTerrorist]

I feel like it doesn't look good on paper, but I'm definitely going to try it. Something tells me it's going to be a lot of fun.

How are these new mechanics going to be fun? They seem broken and poorly implemented at best. I don't think Shimbori was paying attention while coming up with these ideas or analyzing what was already in DOA5, cause they honestly don't make much sense to giving DOA6 a competitive mindset. Sidesteps alone utterly demolish the core DOA mechanics by giving players an option just as good if not better than holds, while being easier to use than knowing which hold to use and being safer against punish than a hold. Near-Invincible super attacks don't make sense either when it goes past any mid/high, and the fatal rush combo that gives fatal stun which can be used at any time but only being breakable by burning an entire meter for 10pts of damage and resetting to neutral doesn't even work on a fundamental level. Its not much of a help that the first hit of a fatal rush is always high when it is precisely the first hit. String knowledge is where reliability in holds comes from, and few if any players can intentionally recognize and reacte to any fast first hit of a string. The first hit of the fatal rush is all that needs to connect to get the fatal stun to guarantee for free all the other hits in the fatal rush. Even discounting sidesteps, it seems at first glance that a tier list will be built around characters with a lot of utility in Low attacks since only lows beat fatal rush and break blow, so I can imagine Eliot and Kokoro and Zack right off the bat having more frequency in their options to stuff these mechanics

This game design is trash and this shit is even less hype than DOA5 was. It absolutely has to change, no buts about it.

 

[Lulu]

But special meter isn't THAT much different than Power Blows being locked to 50% health and it worked fine in SCV (though that game was rough for other reasons).

That mechanic was terrible, IMO.

It was ?

For me it was more of a Take it or leave it kinda thing... I didn't see anything wrong with it other than it was possible to completely miss out on using it because you didn't notice you lost 50% of your Health... its a tiny issue... easily correctable.

I do dislike the 'S' button though lol and the auto-combo. That is wholly unnecessary given how easy to play DoA is.

Its one saving grace is it is visually... uhm.... visually robust. You got screen shake, particle effects, exaggerated animations... the whole nine yards. Still though... even the though TN already explained what inspired this mechanic... I'm still confused by its inclusion. Hmmmm....

I don't want it like in DOA5 where when you did PBs on block or whiffed or hit an opponent in the air, you still kept that PB until it hit.

Really ? I didn't know you felt this way about PB's...

I loved it this way because it gave characters lacking in Guard Breaks, like Marie Rose or Alpha that avenue of approach should they struggle in a fight.

As Comeback mechanics go... it was pretty good.