My tier list Online vs Offline

[T..J. Bernard]

Updated overall tier list in no order:

S: Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang, Helena, Rig, Ryu, Akira, Kasumi, Ayane, Sarah
A: Hayate, Phase 4, Zack, Tina, Hitomi, Bayman, Pai, Jacky, Mai, Mila, Kokoro, Eliot, Rachel
B: Jann Lee, Leon, Momiji, Bass, Brad Wong, Raidou, Alpha 152, Nyotengu, Lisa
C: Marie Rose, Honoka, Ein, Naotora,

Thoughts?
I feel now there's too many S and A tier characters and to me that's just not true. Now I get a lot of debate in regards to Ryu and I'ma say this: There's no way I'm putting him below Rig and Akira. He's to me the best all around character in the game. The only characters to me that matches Ryu all around is either Gen Fu or Leifang. His strikes are great, leads to some great guarantees, He's has great holds, and despite not being a legit grappler, has tools of a grappler. After that now my issue is I feel that it's a mess in regards to S and A tier because when I think of these tiers here's my thoughts:

S: Characters where 90% of the time they're winning the match-up. They have minor flaws that may cost them here and there but they have so many tools that you can trust them to win multiple championships.

A: Characters that either can win championships (But there's something big that's costing them. Hence why Hayate, Pai, Jacky, Mai, and Mila now are there) or have won, but now the question is how many more can they win. They have some great positives that definitely can challenge the S tier but there's something that's keeping them from reaching S status.

B: Characters that are good and possibly have won a tournament or have gone far, but there are flaws that hurt them. Not that they can't give A-S tiers problems, but either it's lack of seeing their true potential reached or they're straight forward and once they're exposed, it's harder to win with them.

C: Character that are average. Not that they suck or anything but they're highly flawed. It's really hard for me to see them reaching championship status. Not impossible, but pretty difficult.

With this in mind there's too many A's & S's and to me that's just false. Looking from even a basketball standpoint there's to me a hall of fame status (S), superstar status (A), All star (B), and Pro (C). Not every character in this games a superstar and for sure not everyone's in hall of fame status. But that's just my opinion.

 

[KasumiLover]

Updated overall tier list in no order:

S: Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang, Helena, Rig, Ryu, Akira, Kasumi, Ayane, Sarah
A: Hayate, Phase 4, Zack, Tina, Hitomi, Bayman, Pai, Jacky, Mai, Mila, Kokoro, Eliot, Rachel
B: Jann Lee, Leon, Momiji, Bass, Brad Wong, Raidou, Alpha 152, Nyotengu, Lisa
C: Marie Rose, Honoka, Ein, Naotora,

Thoughts?
I feel now there's too many S and A tier characters and to me that's just not true. Now I get a lot of debate in regards to Ryu and I'ma say this: There's no way I'm putting him below Rig and Akira. He's to me the best all around character in the game. The only characters to me that matches Ryu all around is either Gen Fu or Leifang. His strikes are great, leads to some great guarantees, He's has great holds, and despite not being a legit grappler, has tools of a grappler. After that now my issue is I feel that it's a mess in regards to S and A tier because when I think of these tiers here's my thoughts:

S: Characters where 90% of the time they're winning the match-up. They have minor flaws that may cost them here and there but they have so many tools that you can trust them to win multiple championships.

A: Characters that either can win championships (But there's something big that's costing them. Hence why Hayate, Pai, Jacky, Mai, and Mila now are there) or have won, but now the question is how many more can they win. They have some great positives that definitely can challenge the S tier but there's something that's keeping them from reaching S status.

B: Characters that are good and possibly have won a tournament or have gone far, but there are flaws that hurt them. Not that they can't give A-S tiers problems, but either it's lack of seeing their true potential reached or they're straight forward and once they're exposed, it's harder to win with them.

C: Character that are average. Not that they suck or anything but they're highly flawed. It's really hard for me to see them reaching championship status. Not impossible, but pretty difficult.

With this in mind there's too many A's & S's and to me that's just false. Looking from even a basketball standpoint there's to me a hall of fame status (S), superstar status (A), All star (B), and Pro (C). Not every character in this games a superstar and for sure not everyone's in hall of fame status. But that's just my opinion.

Phase 4 isn't an A, real talk. Kasumi is good but not S tier good, Eliot isn't an A either, there should be no reason that he's in the same tier as Hayate, Hayate is way more advanced. If Brad and Nyo and Alpha are B, then there's no reason why Naotora should be below them, she should be roughly within the same tier as them. There's other misplaced characters but I'm just addressing the ones I use/care most about

Also tournament wins doesn't automatically make a character S or A tier. Eliot won twice and he's still deemed as one of the weaker characters move set and tool wise, same could be said if Ein ever won a tournament, he wouldn't instantly be B or A tier

 

[TheDragonAwakens]

Updated overall tier list in no order:

Now I get a lot of debate in regards to Ryu and I'ma say this: There's no way I'm putting him below Rig and Akira. He's to me the best all around character in the game. The only characters to me that matches Ryu all around is either Gen Fu or Leifang. His strikes are great, leads to some great guarantees, He's has great holds, and despite not being a legit grappler, has tools of a grappler.

This is really, really misunderstood and wrong.

Best all around character? False.

Hayabusa's strikes are not great. They are pretty slow in general and he is one of the more unsafe ninjas compared to the others. Another thing is that he hardly has any guard breaks that give him positive frames. The only ones that are useful are his 4P+K which gives him +5 to +15 and his 66K which is +4 and puts him in the Ongyoin stance.

Speaking of the Ongyoin stance, that stance is almost useless at long range if your opponent knows how to deal with it. The most decent tools out from his Ongyoin stance is his unbreakable combo throw and his tracking mid punches from that stance, due to the fact that the unbreakable combo throw does 75 points of base damage, and the tracking mid punches have the property to make the opponent back turned, which makes it good for a critical burst set up. But then, what other decent tools does he have from his Ongyoin stance? The teleport parry? That teleport parry does not give Hayabusa any frame advantage at all. It only puts him on the opposite side of the opponent, nothing else.

His holds are great? Because of his expert punch Izuna holds? They are expert holds. They do powerful damage, especially on high counter, it launches your opponent into the air that gives you an option to juggle your opponent, but what are the chances of pulling them off in a match, especially the high punch and low punch hold Izunas? He also does not have a lot of offensive holds in general either (his guillotine throw offensive holds are also pretty easy to avoid), or having any parries worth using actually.

I'm probably also missing a lot of stuff in this post explaining why Hayabusa is lower tier than Gen Fu and Leifang. Maybe @Brute can tell you more.

 

[Brute]

Now I get a lot of debate in regards to Ryu and I'ma say this: There's no way I'm putting him below Rig and Akira. He's to me the best all around character in the game. The only characters to me that matches Ryu all around is either Gen Fu or Leifang.

Nice April Fool's joke.

 

[Nikotsumi]

*sees Honoka at the bottom* *facepalm*

I may be wrong but I think that (in general) most people who label Honoka as "bad" clearly don't know anything outside of "she has short limbs". I bet those people didn't even bother to try and use Honoka for a while to see what she can and cannot do and just claim she's bad because of the general lack in range, without giving more info.
Lol even I thought Honoka was really bad when I started using her, but after using her for a long while my opinion changed.
This can make you think that characters who lack range are bad, which is not true, just look at Helena, who even Honoka herself fights better with spacing lol (personal experience), or Sarah.
I definitely do not think Honoka is as good as those "top tier" characters, because she isn't, but she's not at the bottom either, like... there's no way imo. The thing is that in order for you to be really successfull with her, you have to know well fundamentals compared to some other characters, and this doesn't make her bad, but "harder" to use.
An example of a bad character is Naotora, as much as I wouldn't want it to be like that, her flaws are huge and pretty evident.
With that said, I do not believe in tier lists or whatever, but if I were asked, I'd put Honoka in the mid at least.

If someone can make me change my mind and convince me by explaining why Honoka should be at the bottom then go for it, would definitely like to hear valid reasons.

I also do not agree with most of those other placements, but it's just my opinion.

 

[T..J. Bernard]

Updated tier list in no order:
S+: Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang, Helena
S: Rig, Ryu, Akira
S-: Ayane, Sarah
A+: Kasumi, Hayate, Phase 4,
A: Zack, Tina, Hitomi, Pai, Jacky, Mai, Kokoro, Bayman
A-: Mila, Rachel, Momiji
B+: Jann Lee, Eliot, Leon
B: Raidou, Bass
B-: Lisa, Brad Wong, Honoka
C+: Marie Rose, Alpha 152
C: Ein, Nyotengu
C-: Naotora

Sorry I just won't budge on Ryu, unless I see a valid reason why Ryu has downgraded. I feel that no matter what Ryu is a great character. He got tools for almost any scenario. While yes he is below Gen Fu and Leifang, I don't see him lower than Rig/Akira. Also Honoka to me is low. We can always debate over what untapped potential she has and all of that but what's all that potential if only 1-2 people put it to use. And honestly to me, I'm not scared of fighting Honoka. Not just because of lack of Range. I feel her mix-ups are average at best.And lastly yes Championships don't matter 100%. Then a majority of characters would be S-A tier. But It does hold some weight. People choose characters yes because they have fun, but also because that character gives them the best opportunities to win a championship. For example, I love Brad. I might use him here and there cause he's fun. But in my most serious games I always picked Rig and Rig only because he gives me the best tools to win (And man he has many ). If people are going to tourneys to look for fun characters then theres no point in hosting a tourney. If Ein won a tourney, It don't mean he's a A character but it does give him more leverage. Same as any sport. No athletes joining teams to look for fun players. Athletes (Minus rookies, they have close to no choice the first 1-2 years or whatever length they go through their rookie contract) join teams that give them the best opportunities to win with the most potential. That philosophy alone can translate to DOA. I'll keep updating the list as time goes on. Thoughts?

 

[Brute]

Oh, fine.

Ryu's greatest weakness is his neutral game, which is complete ass. It's arguably the worst in the game aside from Phase 4. He doesn't have the string variety to pressure an opponent's guard or any halfway-decent lows to open them up. All of his useful frame advantage is too slow and/or telegraphed to be used functionally in high-level play, or rendered nigh useless for some other dumb reason (such as the mandatory stance transition on 66K). Really, you're relying on tick throws (which, for the record, everyone has), and he doesn't have a conventional 66T-speed OH for cheese-tricks, either. He should have nice crushes, but only the high crushes seem to work with any consistency. His low crushes are wretched due to DOA5's awful low-crush hitbox systems, so you're basically gambling any time you attempt to read a low and respond with a low-crush.

His range game is also pretty wretched. Yes, he technically has a good amount of lurch on quite a few attacks. However, they generally aren't exhibiting preposterously favorable telekinesis (like you see with Leifang or Ein) and most of these moves are incredibly risky. Ein and Ayane can cover a great distance with multi-hit strings (and in some cases, tracking) whereas Ryu is generally limited to a single, unsafe flop. The one notable exception to this is 33P and I will admit, it's a good move. But it's also his only truly threatening move from neutral. He has decent keep-out options, but many characters have better.

On another weird note, his oki game is really derpy. It works pretty well when your opponent is against a wall, but in the open the frustrating ongyoin shenanigans are really an online-exclusive cheese. His techs, generally speaking, are pretty risky if you want to impose any highly-favorable situation upon success. You can opt for weaker rewards (7K), but then you're forced back into playing the neutral game, which essentially equates to you giving the opponent the upper-hand (provided they have any degree of MU knowledge and aren't also playing Ryu, like a dumbass).

So what makes up for these deficiencies? Well, he does have good environment abuse, deep stuns (if he somehow manages to open the opponent up), and he does have powerful throws and holds (not OHs). However, his holds are far weaker than other characters' who possess six expert holds in addition to sabakis and parries. Don't be the fool to argue that Ryu has parries because of his ongyoin stance. Anyone who argues that bullshit to be anything more than parlor tricks is a merely a victim who fails to see the trick. That's pretty much the tale of his stance in general, which is pretty useless at range and is worse up close.

So yes, he's scary if he can open the opponent up, but that's a pretty big if. The game, in its current state, favors characters with strong options from neutral. And that's just not Hayabusa. He has competent defensive tools, but they're not even the strongest, and don't compensate for his lacking offense to place him with other "high tier" characters (who generally have even better defensive options in addition to better offensive options).

 

[KasumiLover]

Updated tier list in no order:
S+: Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang, Helena
S: Rig, Ryu, Akira
S-: Ayane, Sarah
A+: Kasumi, Hayate, Phase 4,
A: Zack, Tina, Hitomi, Pai, Jacky, Mai, Kokoro, Bayman
A-: Mila, Rachel, Momiji
B+: Jann Lee, Eliot, Leon
B: Raidou, Bass
B-: Lisa, Brad Wong, Honoka
C+: Marie Rose, Alpha 152
C: Ein, Nyotengu
C-: Naotora

Sorry I just won't budge on Ryu, unless I see a valid reason why Ryu has downgraded. I feel that no matter what Ryu is a great character. He got tools for almost any scenario. While yes he is below Gen Fu and Leifang, I don't see him lower than Rig/Akira. Also Honoka to me is low. We can always debate over what untapped potential she has and all of that but what's all that potential if only 1-2 people put it to use. And honestly to me, I'm not scared of fighting Honoka. Not just because of lack of Range. I feel her mix-ups are average at best.And lastly yes Championships don't matter 100%. Then a majority of characters would be S-A tier. But It does hold some weight. People choose characters yes because they have fun, but also because that character gives them the best opportunities to win a championship. For example, I love Brad. I might use him here and there cause he's fun. But in my most serious games I always picked Rig and Rig only because he gives me the best tools to win (And man he has many ). If people are going to tourneys to look for fun characters then theres no point in hosting a tourney. If Ein won a tourney, It don't mean he's a A character but it does give him more leverage. Same as any sport. No athletes joining teams to look for fun players. Athletes (Minus rookies, they have close to no choice the first 1-2 years or whatever length they go through their rookie contract) join teams that give them the best opportunities to win with the most potential. That philosophy alone can translate to DOA. I'll keep updating the list as time goes on. Thoughts?

Phase isn't in the same tier with hayate and kasumi, and why is naotora the lowest??

 

[T..J. Bernard]

Updated tier list in no order:
S+: Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang, Helena
S: Akira
S-: Rig, Ayane, Hayate
A+: Kasumi, Ryu, Sarah
A: Phase 4, Zack, Tina, Hitomi, Pai, Jacky, Mai, Kokoro, Bayman
A-: Mila, Rachel, Momiji
B+: Jann Lee, Eliot, Leon, Raidou
B: Bass, Lisa, Honoka, Brad Wong
B-: Ein, Naotora, Alpha 152, Marie Rose, Nyotengu

I finally budged XD. I tried my hardest to defend Ryu (mostly from my experience fighting Ryu online). But I saw a valid reason why Ryu isn't a S tier. Online though he's an S tier to me. But offline, and offline's where it matters most, he has downgraded. After that, personally I feel that Naotora's highly incomplete as a character. Not to say she sucks but I feel like she's a beta character. Her mix-ups are mediocre at best, with possibly the worst punching strikes of any character (And in any fight the first swing is 99.9% of the time a punch) . Her defense is not the best. And I feel that minus maybe a few things, Nao's potentials mostly reached. I can't see her going far in a major tournament. Not that she can't win it but I'm not betting Nao against 90% of this roster. Thoughts?

 

[Chapstick]

Updated tier list (No order) (Overall):
S: Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang, Helena
A: Ryu, Rig, Akira, Kasumi, Ayane, Sarah, Hayate, Phase 4, Zack,
B: Mai, Jann Lee, Hitomi, Bayman, Rachel, Pai, Jacky, Kokoro, Tina, Eliot, Mila
C: Marie Rose, Honoka, Bass, Brad Wong, Lisa, Raidou, Momiji, Leon, Alpha 152, Nyotengu, Ein, Naotora

Thoughts?

You should go back to this, it was much closer

Bump Helena, Ryu, and Phase 4 down

Bump Ayane, Jacky, Bass, Leon, Momiji, and possibly Mai and Marie up

 

[DestructionBomb]

We have to give Lisa a little bit more credit here. She has good moderate movement+backdash and one of the few characters who has a jab on block that's +1. Also have to say that you might be giving Sarah a little bit too much credit. The ground game has changed a ton when she became a severe problem in vanilla and the hate of the character. Guaranteed force techs off certain knockdown setups no longer apply. All Sarah has at the moment is stun launch damage and stun game flamingo priority.

Too many feel approach than stating why. So far Brute seems to be the only one that has done that. I can list why Sarah has gotten worse.

2H+K use to FT in vanilla, no longer FT in 5U/LR. It is Pseudo.

1KK use to FT in vanilla, 1K was the FT while the last hit will whiff but still left her at advantage, no longer FT in 5U/LR. It is Pseudo.

This reduced Sarah's all pressure game up close and making you guess upon wake up. Seriously, who wants to guess all the time the moment you tech up and finding out she's in Flamingo upon rising+advantage. She's still good, but most of that magic only happens when she opens you up on neutral now. No longer will one have to get launched into a knockdown, and then net a guaranteed FT that keeps her advantage. This means that she now has to function based on the player's mobility and going for FT if the opponent "chooses" to stay on the ground rather than just forcing them up without their permission.

 

[T..J. Bernard]

Update to tier list in no order:
S+: Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang, Helena
S: Akira, Rig, Hayate
S-: Ayane
A+: Kasumi, Ryu
A: Phase 4, Sarah, Zack, Tina, Momiji, Pai, Jacky, Mai, Kokoro
A-: Mila, Rachel, Momiji, Bayman
B+: Jann Lee, Eliot, Leon, Raidou, Lisa, Bass
B: Honoka, Brad Wong, Marie Rose
B-: Ein, Naotora, Alpha 152, Nyotengu

I'm getting ever closer to my final "for now" tier list, that will be updated once summer jam rolls around. But I realized after the Ryu debacle everyone else hasn't been debated much on top. So I guess I can leave that alone for the most part. I hear Helena's lower but I don't agree. The majority of top 5's I asked always revolved around Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang (Which could possibly be #1 but that's for another discussion) and Helena. Most of my debates have been about the lower tiers. Whether it'd be because its someone's main or whatever reason the lower tiers have been the most debated. Some have been influenced by my personal experience and others have been influenced by what I hear from other people. I'll be honest my most debated part from just me myself is whom to put after or with the "Elite 4" and Akira and Rig. And I am also debating whether Tina's same tier as Kasumi and Sarah with Ryu too. But after that, I'm getting closer. Thoughts?

 

[Brute]

You know, I may strongly disagree with your assertions, but this is the most consistent effort I've seen from anyone to create a tier list in quite some time. It's kind of nice to see.

 

[T..J. Bernard]

You know, I may strongly disagree with your assertions, but this is the most consistent effort I've seen from anyone to create a tier list in quite some time. It's kind of nice to see.

Besides the Ryu part, where else are there disagreements?

 

[Brute]

Go Up:
Ayane
Zack
Jann Lee
Momiji
Jacky

Go Down:
Phase 4
Christie
Hayate
Tina
Rig

 

[DestructionBomb]

You might consider playing against Pai. You should hit up Codemaster within here or FB if you have one, could change your mind on the list a bit regarding her possibly, and I suppose Nyotengu if he's willing to play using her. I am willing to put nickels that Pai can put numbers in than Tina for sure.

 

[Brute]

I feel like that has less to do with the characters and more to do with Codemaster just being a better player than everyone else.

 

[DestructionBomb]

I feel like that has less to do with the characters and more to do with Codemaster just being a better player than everyone else.

Code does consistently put Pai's tools into compensation for his play though. He's a good player, but he also does things with the character with advantage for priority and using guaranteeds off throws which he can take advantage of. Not many characters has this function besides ones that leads into a guaranteed hit from a reset throw or enough advantage to get a hit out of. Playing Pai more (his Pai for example) will be an effective way on digging the character that isn't just skill gap involved and seeing what she can do.

 

[T..J. Bernard]

Updated tier list in no order
S+: Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang, Helena
S: Akira, Ayane, Rig
S-: Hayate, Kasumi
A+: Ryu, Zack, Jacky, Pai
A: Phase 4, Hitomi, Sarah, Momiji, Mai, Kokoro
A-: Mila, Rachel, Bayman, Jann Lee, Tina
B+: Eliot, Leon, Raidou, Lisa, Bass
B: Honoka, Brad Wong, Marie Rose, Alpha 152, Nyotengu
B-: Ein, Naotora,

Thoughts?

I can't drop Rig. Not just because I'm a rig main. I feel that he has a lot of good stuff and from a lot of people that I talk to he's been in discussion for top 5. He has many + moves/strings, from standard strings like kk and ppkk to even his guard breaks like 6h+k or 4h+K from bending, which can help with his neutral game. He has great guarantees if anyone allows them (Rig's one of the worst characters you want to have your back turned on.) And he has tracking moves where he's also another character you don't want to side step against. The only issue I see is that his defense can be improved (I feel that he struggles with Kasumi, Hitomi, Ryu, & Leifang). But without a doubt, to me personally, he has the best overall offense. I can't drop Rig with all the positives. Christie that's more of a every time I see a tournament I hear too much praise and also every tier list I discuss, Christie is alway top 4. That's another I can't drop yet. After that Pai is a debate where I have to see more (whether it's me using Pai or me fighting Pai 1000 times) before I can see why Pai has all this huge fuss.

 

[Chapstick]

Rig is easily top 5

Online that is