Putting aside the placements of the characters themselves, is anyone else really bothered by how many tiers are on this list? I don't feel like the game is anywhere near unbalanced enough for there to be nine tiers.
My tier list Online vs Offline
- Thread starter T..J. Bernard
- Start date
He's using 3 base tiers and are mostly using the +'s & -'s to separate things slightly instead of having giant lines of names. But yeah, DOA5LR barely has any tiers overall. The game is balanced to a point that tier lists aren't really a huge factor.
T..J. Bernard
Well-Known Member
Updated tier list in no order
S+: Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang, Helena
S: Akira, Ayane, Rig
S-: Hayate, Kasumi, Pai
A+: Ryu, Zack, Jacky,
A: Phase 4, Hitomi, Sarah, Momiji, Mai, Kokoro
A-: Mila, Rachel, Bayman, Jann Lee, Tina, Leon
B+: Eliot, Raidou, Lisa, Bass, Nyotengu
B: Honoka, Brad Wong, Marie Rose, Alpha 152,
B-: Ein, Naotora,
Thoughts?
I feel that I have to separate the letters like that so I can't have all these characters bunched to one letter when to me that's just not true. I've succumbed to Pai being a S tier. And I feel that Leon has A tier qualities. Now yes a tier list doesn't matter for the most part. The "best characters" don't always win. If that was the case then Gen Fu, Christie, Helena, & Leifang would always be scrapping for championships and that's just not true. But it does hold some value as to how some people choose their characters and what kind of capabilities they have (from winning championships to making high ranks online or whatever). If everyone was extremely even Ein would have a championship by now (In regards to DOA5 lifespan). Again similar to athletes picking teams or teams picking athletes, everyone picks the character they feel can give them the best chance to win based off potential and playstyle. I feel that's where a tier list comes in.
S+: Gen Fu, Christie, Leifang, Helena
S: Akira, Ayane, Rig
S-: Hayate, Kasumi, Pai
A+: Ryu, Zack, Jacky,
A: Phase 4, Hitomi, Sarah, Momiji, Mai, Kokoro
A-: Mila, Rachel, Bayman, Jann Lee, Tina, Leon
B+: Eliot, Raidou, Lisa, Bass, Nyotengu
B: Honoka, Brad Wong, Marie Rose, Alpha 152,
B-: Ein, Naotora,
Thoughts?
I feel that I have to separate the letters like that so I can't have all these characters bunched to one letter when to me that's just not true. I've succumbed to Pai being a S tier. And I feel that Leon has A tier qualities. Now yes a tier list doesn't matter for the most part. The "best characters" don't always win. If that was the case then Gen Fu, Christie, Helena, & Leifang would always be scrapping for championships and that's just not true. But it does hold some value as to how some people choose their characters and what kind of capabilities they have (from winning championships to making high ranks online or whatever). If everyone was extremely even Ein would have a championship by now (In regards to DOA5 lifespan). Again similar to athletes picking teams or teams picking athletes, everyone picks the character they feel can give them the best chance to win based off potential and playstyle. I feel that's where a tier list comes in.
I feel that Ayane & Pai are too high (they're not "S Tier" quality), along with Jacky, & Raidou too. Mila should be at least "A+" or "S-" by these standards since her damage output and overall toolset is very potent and well-balanced. She's an arguable top tier character. As much as Ein struggles, he's not really a bottom tier character. Outside of close range he's a reasonably solid character. Some others such as Hitomi being better than Jann Lee I'm not too keen on, but the list is starting to shape up better. As a small suggestion I'd scrap "S+" for now because no character really dominates the cast enough to justify it.
Not everyone picks their character based on who supposedly gives them the best chance to win.
Chapstick
Well-Known Member
Why? I ask because you're the only person I've ever seen say that
Because he mains her.
She can arguably get blown up harder than majority of the cast on average if the opponent punishes her due to having numerous moves that can leave her in an unsafe position + BT'ed (allowing for full strike punishment). Not saying that she can't be played safely, but it does skew her output vs. punishment a bit. It is an issue that some higher level players have with her. Other than that she's really solid and is fine around "A Tier".
Brute said:
Just like how you main Ryu and shit all over him lol. MASTER seemed to do fine with him at NEC17.
Chapstick
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure having unsafe moves matters on a character that has so many good safe ones. It's not like an Ayane player who knows what they're doing is just throwing out 7K/66KKK/236K blindly.
I've accepted that. But I'm calling broken wheelbarrow a cutting board while you're calling an Enzo a Corolla.
Because he's a good player. If you listen to Master, he's also stated, repeatedly, that Ryu's not all that in DOA5LR.
Not really talking about obvious stuff like 7K/BT7K, or like BT6H+K for instance. 66KKK (66KK4 is mad punishable, though admittedly should be kept to a minimum in neutral situations) & 236K don't leave Ayane BT'ed for strike punishment. Most stuff that leaves her BT'ed like 3PP, 4P, 1P, etc. on block can get blown up hard if the opponent is on top of their punishment (and can react to the free cancel/delay for the moves with an obvious low or high follow-up). She can be played fairly safely, yes, it just seems like she's potentially more punishable overall than the average character on the roster. I'm not saying Ayane is bad at all and is pretty solid, but she's really not exactly an "S Tier" character. Around "A Tier" seems more appropriate.
Brute said:
Fair enough and I know MASTER's a "good player" but he tore it up at NEC17 pretty convincingly going over some top players like Kwiggle for example in convincing fashion. Where would you place Hayabusa?
T..J. Bernard
Well-Known Member
Updated tier list in no order
S+: Gen Fu, Leifang, Christie
S: Helena,
S-: Akira, Rig, Ayane
A+: Hayate, Kasumi, Pai, Ryu
A: Zack, Mila, Sarah
A-: Hitomi, Momiji, Mai, Kokoro, Jacky, Phase 4
B+: Rachel, Bayman, Jann Lee, Tina, Leon,
B: Eliot, Raidou, Lisa, Bass, Nyotengu, Naotora
B-: Brad Wong, Marie Rose, Alpha 152, Ein, Naotora
Thoughts?
I feel that Ayane is S- tier based off the fact that she can control the tempo of a game. I don't think any character besides Hayate or Leifang can control the tempo of a game like she can. Depending on the player of course too. But even with Rig, I struggle with Ayane's ability to dictate whether she wants to attack close or from afar. I do agree that her -'s are very costly and I don't think Ayane's best when she's close for too long as then she's playing to the tempo of Rig, Christie, Gen Fu and others and I don't think she wants the opponent to dictate how the match will be. Now I made a big change, which I probably will get heat for but I don't think I can deduct the S+ tier just yet solely because I feel that although eventually Leifang's potential will be fully realized and she'll be higher than Gen Fu and Christie, I can't leave her solely by herself just yet. Also every time I put a C tier there's always a fuss over it. Pai's a character that to me's creeping in to elite status. I played some games against her and her offensive pressure game can make her S tier. But I feel her range could be better and although her holds lead to guarantees, if not executed right, they're holds that no one would care about. Watching Master play at NEC 16 did give me a feel that Ryu is creeping back up. Raidou I feel is right where he is. He has great power and watching EDK in Final Round, I think there's a lot of potential with Raidou. The only thing is he's pretty slow. But he has moves I wouldn't have realized were safe until I dove a bit into what he could do. Lastly I feel Phase is an A as even though her inputs are difficult (To me at least but I'm starting to get the hang of it) She also has great pressure with her teleporting and she makes you have to play the guessing game as to what move she'll do next. She's not as free flowing as Kasumi but I feel that in the right hands she's a definite A tier.
S+: Gen Fu, Leifang, Christie
S: Helena,
S-: Akira, Rig, Ayane
A+: Hayate, Kasumi, Pai, Ryu
A: Zack, Mila, Sarah
A-: Hitomi, Momiji, Mai, Kokoro, Jacky, Phase 4
B+: Rachel, Bayman, Jann Lee, Tina, Leon,
B: Eliot, Raidou, Lisa, Bass, Nyotengu, Naotora
B-: Brad Wong, Marie Rose, Alpha 152, Ein, Naotora
Thoughts?
I feel that Ayane is S- tier based off the fact that she can control the tempo of a game. I don't think any character besides Hayate or Leifang can control the tempo of a game like she can. Depending on the player of course too. But even with Rig, I struggle with Ayane's ability to dictate whether she wants to attack close or from afar. I do agree that her -'s are very costly and I don't think Ayane's best when she's close for too long as then she's playing to the tempo of Rig, Christie, Gen Fu and others and I don't think she wants the opponent to dictate how the match will be. Now I made a big change, which I probably will get heat for but I don't think I can deduct the S+ tier just yet solely because I feel that although eventually Leifang's potential will be fully realized and she'll be higher than Gen Fu and Christie, I can't leave her solely by herself just yet. Also every time I put a C tier there's always a fuss over it. Pai's a character that to me's creeping in to elite status. I played some games against her and her offensive pressure game can make her S tier. But I feel her range could be better and although her holds lead to guarantees, if not executed right, they're holds that no one would care about. Watching Master play at NEC 16 did give me a feel that Ryu is creeping back up. Raidou I feel is right where he is. He has great power and watching EDK in Final Round, I think there's a lot of potential with Raidou. The only thing is he's pretty slow. But he has moves I wouldn't have realized were safe until I dove a bit into what he could do. Lastly I feel Phase is an A as even though her inputs are difficult (To me at least but I'm starting to get the hang of it) She also has great pressure with her teleporting and she makes you have to play the guessing game as to what move she'll do next. She's not as free flowing as Kasumi but I feel that in the right hands she's a definite A tier.
Lol, that is pretty funny. We've got him indecisive on Naotara now!
Eh, Phase's a bit of an "I'm gunna stun, launch or throw you at some point in the match them I'm gunna party" type character. She's a tricky character to tier place. For instance "A Tier" isn't unrealistic for her despite her on-paper "flaws".
Chapstick
Well-Known Member
Isn't 66KK4 best used as whiff punishment anyway? 3P is a move the opponent has to make a guess on, they can't just stand blocking and everything's okay. 4P is like Lei's shoulder but I don't see us dropping her to A because of it. And Lei's doesn't have delayable followups that put her FT. 1P is similar to 4P but the followups are slower afaik. These are all moves that you're not really supposed to use blindly either
Since this convo started I've been looking for that long post Hajin wrote in response to someone (I'm thinking Jyakotu or you) about why Ayane's a top character in this game since he clearly knows her better than I do but I have no clue where that was
66KK4 isn't good for whiff punishment. 4K, 3PP or 3H+K are better. It's better served in juggles, as an unholdable or during stun to a lesser extent (66K does provide a strong stun on its own even on NH). Lei-Fang doesn't get dropped because she has ridiculous tools all over the place. It's fine though, you guys can keep Ayane at "S+" or whatever. I don't really care at this point lol. Christie, GenFu & Eliot are the best anyway since they've won the most major tournaments for DOA5/LR.
Won 6 straight rounds against her twice if I'm not mistaken...
T..J. Bernard
Well-Known Member
Updated tier list in no order
S+: Gen Fu, Leifang, Christie
S: Helena,
S-: Akira, Rig,
A+: Hayate, Kasumi, Pai, Ryu, Ayane
A: Zack, Mila, Sarah
A-: Hitomi, Momiji, Mai, Kokoro, Jacky, Phase 4
B+: Rachel, Bayman, Jann Lee, Tina, Leon,
B: Eliot, Raidou, Lisa, Bass, Nyotengu, Marie Rose, Honoka
B-: Brad Wong, Alpha 152, Ein, Naotora
Thoughts?
XD I always put names twice. I tried to put Honoka but I accidentally put Nao twice. But Nao to me's B-. Don't worry about Leifang dropping to A. I don't think that's happening anytime soon, minus maybe in story mode. But after that, I really do think its now shaping up.
S+: Gen Fu, Leifang, Christie
S: Helena,
S-: Akira, Rig,
A+: Hayate, Kasumi, Pai, Ryu, Ayane
A: Zack, Mila, Sarah
A-: Hitomi, Momiji, Mai, Kokoro, Jacky, Phase 4
B+: Rachel, Bayman, Jann Lee, Tina, Leon,
B: Eliot, Raidou, Lisa, Bass, Nyotengu, Marie Rose, Honoka
B-: Brad Wong, Alpha 152, Ein, Naotora
Thoughts?
XD I always put names twice. I tried to put Honoka but I accidentally put Nao twice. But Nao to me's B-. Don't worry about Leifang dropping to A. I don't think that's happening anytime soon, minus maybe in story mode. But after that, I really do think its now shaping up.