DOA5LR Naotora Match-Up List

KasumiLover

xX_APO_Prince_Xx
Premium Donor
I actually think the hold system and her expected linearity benefits Naotora TBH. Think about it, because opponents expect mid kicks and high kicks, she can get away and surprise opponents with her mid punches which flow and chain into each other very well. Then there's her 9P which like the Spine mentioned before can be done by itself and can make the opponent react by them guarding or attempting hold, in and out of stun. She's a good whiff punisher too but she can do more as a zoner since for example if you intentionally do KK6KK at a far range and only let the 6KK part hit, you basically did a longer range version of the 9KK command. It's hard to explain, but I'm starting to think that for her longer strings when she's at a far range that letting some parts of it whiff for a certain part to hit actually benefits her and adds to her unpredictability. ...Sorry if it sounds crazy, these are just observations I'm noticing about her. XD
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
You're making it sound like the hold system in an obstacle only for Honoka and that in this case, only Naotora has access to it, or at least that's what I'm understanding, which imo is not considering Naotora is a lot more easier to hold (unless she's gonna whiff punish for the whole round). Also the free movement, it's not like only Naotora has access to it, Honoka movement speed is even above avarage, which really helps her staying in the opponent face.
If I'm wrong this means that a character that has better reach/whiff punishment, which can fight at mid-long range better than her (every character of the roster?) is automatically a point above Honoka?

Why?

Because Honoka has to get in as well as to get out, other characters simply do better at it such as Hayate. Naotora has a bigger payoff for not screwing up. Naotora is no Raidou here in terms of making hard reads but Honoka suffers the Ein dilemma here to approach things in a natural cause. Ein compared to Honoka is more bad at it because his kit is too old to compliment his winnings, so Ein is forced to be played in a fundamental manner to achieve success. Basically committing to honesty, but a bit too honest. Ein plays a better spacing zone than what Naotora could do, but his movelist kit doesn't answer his major problem to win games on a basis. Same as Honoka. Naotora is actually decent in both these cases but not at all extremely versatile to answer all of their problems, yet Naotora definitely has stuff that answers those problems that goes against majority of the cast. It's the consistency to perform these actions but she "can" do it.

If you look at my previous posts, tiers list as well as match up related topics as a whole is difficult for DOA because the game is based on a triangle system. Priority up close in games matches only become obvious if the character in play makes it that obvious. Bass vs Sarah for example. Bass is too slow to committing offense in this situation, which majority of players/characters in DOA has to do in order to drain health bars. What the game doesn't actually tell you is that the reverse can happen by simply holding things correctly and avoiding things correctly, which in turns eliminate the option for Sarah to win, so it eliminates match up related/tiers at paper base, but the actual fact of the matter is that Bass is too slow to actually win against Sarah even without paper base, not impossible but asking for too much. End result is that anything could happen, Honoka is no Bass but the inconsistency of Honoka is a downfall with the free movement of DOA if the player is not careful on the actions being at play here. Honoka is one of them, even with her regular free movement because her list doesn't compensate greatly in rewards due to her natural character design. Like what? we expect 6T to save Honoka's life for advantage here? or stance launching mid kicks? set play even hinders the character.

I actually think the hold system and her expected linearity benefits Naotora TBH. Think about it, because opponents expect mid kicks and high kicks, she can get away and surprise opponents with her mid punches which flow and chain into each other very well. Then there's her 9P which like the Spine mentioned before can be done by itself and can make the opponent react by them guarding or attempting hold, in and out of stun. She's a good whiff punisher too but she can do more as a zoner since for example if you intentionally do KK6KK at a far range and only let the 6KK part hit, you basically did a longer range version of the 9KK command. It's hard to explain, but I'm starting to think that for her longer strings when she's at a far range that letting some parts of it whiff for a certain part to hit actually benefits her and adds to her unpredictability. ...Sorry if it sounds crazy, these are just observations I'm noticing about her. XD

It's not that the hold system benefits Naotora. Everyone can hold. It's just that the system in play with neutral and to avoid such things in free movement favors a bit more to her side and not getting screwed in the long run on independent skill levels. Honoka can hold some of those moves as well in those particular cases, but it's the long run from it..which isn't particularly a huge scale of things when the opponent can do it too and have back ups for it.

Honoka has way better stun concepts and better throws (plus a wall throw that's actually really good), just like Ein, it's not a grand exposure of things when the game forces the players to commit to things that are different than the cast. Honoka has to be played differently to achieve results that doesn't allow screwing up and not getting CH blown in the process.
 
Last edited:

Nikotsumi

Well-Known Member
Yeah, overall I agree with everything, but I thought that when talking about match-ups and tier lists (in which I absolutely do not believe in, not in this game) holds were not meant to be taken into account, as everyone can do them and they highly depend on the players, so everything can happen.
Isn't a match-up has to be based on what a character can do better than the other and vice versa, and also comparing their tools?
Then isn't the Nao-Honoka situation a bit similar to the Nao-Rig one? Where in close combat Nao has to block more then usual, but the system (hold system and free movement) favors her a bit?
Sorry if I don't seem to understand this, I'm trying xD
 
Last edited:

The Spine

Well-Known Member
Yeah, overall I agree with everything, but I thought that when talking about match-ups and tier lists (in which I absolutely do not believe in, not in this game) holds were not meant to be taken into account, as everyone can do them and they highly depend on the players, so everything can happen.
Isn't a match-up has to be based on what a character can do better than the other and vice versa, and also comparing their tools?
Then isn't the Nao-Honoka situation a bit similar to the Nao-Rig one? Where in close combat Nao has to block more then usual, but the system (hold system and free movement) favors her a bit?
Sorry if I don't seem to understand this, I'm trying xD
I feel like the hold system only keeps all match-ups at a 6-4 instead of approaching 7-3. I wouldn't say the hold system really benefits Naotora in either match-up because you can also look at throws. Both Honoka and Rig have a reset throws. It's probably better to look at match-ups based on character tools and not focus on the hold system, since that is pretty much up to the player.
 

The Spine

Well-Known Member
I've played this....thing for a bit now. Am I out of line to say Naotora has no match-ups in her favor? Legitimately, I see no reason whatsoever for her to be above someone else in a match-up. She doesn't bring anything too scary to the table when you look at her mix-ups and stun game. I mean, it's there a little bit, but it's incredibly weak compared to what other characters can do after they get into stun. It's even harder for Naotora to even get in the stun game. She has good damage, but when you factor in the risk she has to take to get to that max damage, it's iffy. I know I am the flag bearer for #DeleteNaotora, but this is a legitimate question for you Naotora players. What do you think?
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Yeah, overall I agree with everything, but I thought that when talking about match-ups and tier lists (in which I absolutely do not believe in, not in this game) holds were not meant to be taken into account, as everyone can do them and they highly depend on the players, so everything can happen.
Isn't a match-up has to be based on what a character can do better than the other and vice versa, and also comparing their tools?
Then isn't the Nao-Honoka situation a bit similar to the Nao-Rig one? Where in close combat Nao has to block more then usual, but the system (hold system and free movement) favors her a bit?
Sorry if I don't seem to understand this, I'm trying xD

Could of sworn I responded to this thread but instead the text at the bottom was draft saved and not sent.

Anyways. There are definitely tier lists in every game if the factor ends with having a roster of "different" characters, if they'd all played the same people would agree with you. Tier lists highly consists of tools with how much reward they get off it as well as how each individual character can bypass this reward with their own reward system in play, as well as how often/less it clashes with the other characters set of rewards. How much the system pays in their favor, how easy access it is to diminish the other players options, how progressive can it be with each individual match rounds that pays off for the player without the need of higher independent skill levels etc. What you choose to believe is on you, but there is definitely some added match ups and tier lists in this game, it's just DOA is simply much more difficult to find each individual points because of the core system being used. If there wasn't any there wouldn't be an official tier list thread to begin with. The reason why people say that there isn't a tier list is because it's mostly from comfortability levels with a player vs player perspective. When you have two players think alike within a same match with different characters, one player has a higher priority character than the other character but yet the match "can" end in the lower favored character because of simple genuine mistakes, overcompensating in scenarios, as well as not exactly following things on paper. The issue with tier lists is that it gets boggled from different views with using a player vs player idea at it's base and constant use of net battles to determine playability on what's correct or wrong.

As for the Naotora/Rig/Honoka. Rig has potential to play a game on fundamentals alone that doesn't have him revolve around a close game situation, simply put this is what I mean, "A back up" incase things do not go in Rig's favor and he can exceptionally do it well that doesn't "screw himself" up for it. So when the up close games are not going in favor on Naotora because Rig is simply going atrocious on her up close, she now plays the open space game and applying concepts. Naotora actually has some deep concepts applied here for whiff attacks that grant her decent damage and not getting screwed too heavily for it. Naotora tosses a 6T for the whiff. -Situation is reset again- so this a mind game concept applied because not only it provided damage but because you are forcing and conditioning the opponent to do things. When Honoka does a 6T on whiff, you provided advantage for her but also putting yourself on the risk to giving the core system to guess for both sides even if she as at advantage. Honoka does 6T for the whiff and Honoka does a jab afterwards but the opponent does 2P and gains advantage in return for scoring a CH and now the system shifts immediately which results in situational dilemma. Honoka has too many concepts applied that can rely on situations because the opponent isn't too afraid of a throw that provides minimum damage with advantage provided because you gave the opponent time to think. (Not that it's a bad thing because DOA has so much movement that the match goes into actual thinking for once. It's just the varying factor on who's doing it and how it applies. When Mila does it she gets a guaranteed hit with knock down follow ups for oki where you can mix the two and then conditioning the opponent to respect Mila's attack options because they can expect the follow-up again only to be thrown again.)

Naotora in terms of movement has access to this that puts her on par with some of the cast because there are more than one way to play the scenario without exactly following papers. Honoka could play this way but is even limited to this particular situation because her whiff punishing rewards are not particularly demanding and consists of asking for too many mistakes from the opponent, which is relying on sheer luck for the opponent to keep making mistakes just to score playing keepout or constantly getting in for proper neutral. What pays Honoka in favor is that DOA does not follow the procedure on following exactly what paper says but it isn't a justified means of potential tasks completion against the cast that can do just the same but much better.
 
Last edited:

KasumiLover

xX_APO_Prince_Xx
Premium Donor
Here's a match up summary in regards to Kasumi, I had a few I gathered for the guide I had but I think it's best if I just post the match ups and summaries here with you guys otherwise it'd be in an indefinite WIP state. XD But here is Kasumi's, I'll copy the rest here when I can get the chance

P] 11i/14i/14i vs. 9i/11i/12i
[K] 11i/12i/14i vs. 11i/14i/14i
[☆] Favor: 1-3(Unfavorable MU)
[☆] MU difficulty : HARD

[☆] Match Summary: One of Naotora's tougher match ups. Kasumi is a nightmare up close for her: Faster punch frames, near equal neutral kick frames, a reset and launcher throw, 4 defensive high and mid parries, and faster speed make her difficult to contend with at close range due Kasumi's faster style that asserts dominance and pressure up close...fighting her in close quarters is near impossible, but Naotora has her 11i high kick and 12i mid knee kick that can help her keep up, even if only just. Keeping a distance of about mid range is recommended; Kasumi does not possess a lot of long range tools, and Naotora has several tools such as 8K, 9K, 4H+K, 2H+K, and 6K that cover a decent distance, making it hard for Kasumi to safely move in on her and interrupt her attacks, since you will now have enough distance to safely execute them. But use caution, although long range isn't Kasumi's preferred range, she has moves that can help her move in such as 66PP, and 66K which hops over lows. 3P+K is another thing to watch out for, as it can quickly close gaps and has a high punch, mid kick, and a throw follow up. 9P can be used too, but all the follow ups can be avoided by crouching. Because her 66P and 66K are both 16i and her strike follow ups are 26i, Naotora can easily beat them out with her 15i H+K, 15i 8P, her 14i 4P slashing mid punch when back turned, or her running 15i P+K flinging butt attack. Avoid jumping or using any attacks at close range that have jump properties, as Kasumi has a lot of moves to capitalize on airborne adversaries....and be CAREFUL, she has an expert mid kick hold and a low kick hold that guarantees a free juggle combo! Overall, this match up will be tough, but utilizing spacing and proper defense will make it go more smoothly as long as you play carefully and cautiously.
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
While I do agree that Kasumi has much more priority, the term hard is a stretch. 6-4 in Kasumi's favor for sure, will agree.

Guys, you've been on the forums for a long time now. Neutral quicker starting pokes does not always mean it's a favorable match up. Pai and Christie are incredibly quick, but it does not mean they will always beat Gen Fu and in no regards a hard match up for Gen Fu. Some of the cast match ups Naotora has are likely to be not in her favor, but definitely not impossible for her to win though.
 

KasumiLover

xX_APO_Prince_Xx
Premium Donor
While I do agree that Kasumi has much more priority, the term hard is a stretch. 6-4 in Kasumi's favor for sure, will agree.

Guys, you've been on the forums for a long time now. Neutral quicker starting pokes does not always mean it's a favorable match up. Pai and Christie are incredibly quick, but it does not mean they will always beat Gen Fu and in no regards a hard match up for Gen Fu. Some of the cast match ups Naotora has are likely to be not in her favor, but definitely not impossible for her to win though.
I think the MU is tougher on Naotora's part but that's only if she's forced to be up close to Kasumi since she can beat her out fairly easily, but Naotora does have certain attacks like say her 11i kick that can beat out Kasumi if she were to say use her 12i 4P. And Naotora does better at a mid distance which can make it hard for Kasumi to safely approach since she'll have room to perform her slower attacks, it's like Lisa who you don't want to give any room if you can help it. XD
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I think the MU is tougher on Naotora's part but that's only if she's forced to be up close to Kasumi since she can beat her out fairly easily, but Naotora does have certain attacks like say her 11i kick that can beat out Kasumi if she were to say use her 12i 4P. And Naotora does better at a mid distance which can make it hard for Kasumi to safely approach since she'll have room to perform her slower attacks, it's like Lisa who you don't want to give any room if you can help it. XD

It should be tough on Naotora since Kasumi has good launch setups, attack string variations that can crush, as well as oriented strike options for pressure. Kasumi could play the keep away too but that can vary in environment and all player base, I mean she even has a ceiling throw so it all varies. Shouldn't be an easy match for Naotora but there is a glimmer of hope there within that match.
 

The Spine

Well-Known Member
Alright, after playing this character for a little while, I'm going to go out on a limb here. I feel that Naotora has no match-ups in her favor. The only even ones could possible be: Alpha, Bass, Eliot, Ein, and maybe Nyotengu. Someone please tell me I'm crazy.
 
ALL DOA6 DOA5 DOA4 DOA3 DOA2U DOAD
Top