Haven't played Onimusha, but it plays kind of like a DMC/NG/DS hybrid. Faster than DS, less mashy than DMC, but focused on less enemies (typically) than NG.
Nioh General Discussion
- Thread starter Kensei25
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Sotherius
Well-Known Member
NiOH is like a weird chimera.
It has a lot taken from Souls games for sure, the stamina bar, the level design looping around, and the shrine checkpoint stuffis taken from souls.
But it adds a lot to the combat by adding the ki pulse, that is sort of an active reload system, the control scheme is very unique.
It has some ninja gaiden-ish stuff about it, like how block and dodging works and are chained together. But overall, you have much less crowd options than NG, and the game is much more focused 1v1.
It also has a lot of different status, buffs and debuffs.
And a diablo loot system...
This is the basic info i can give about the game though, there is much more.
It has a lot taken from Souls games for sure, the stamina bar, the level design looping around, and the shrine checkpoint stuffis taken from souls.
But it adds a lot to the combat by adding the ki pulse, that is sort of an active reload system, the control scheme is very unique.
It has some ninja gaiden-ish stuff about it, like how block and dodging works and are chained together. But overall, you have much less crowd options than NG, and the game is much more focused 1v1.
It also has a lot of different status, buffs and debuffs.
And a diablo loot system...
This is the basic info i can give about the game though, there is much more.
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
Im loaded with stuff atm but for sure I still need to pick this up in the future.
UpSideDownGRUNT
Well-Known Member
PSN has the Complete Edition for £25.49(with plus)... NGL I'm incredibly tempted
l0l KT and their secret unannounced editions.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Thats the Souls Games Formula to a T.
Nioh system works perfectly well fighting multiple enemies. In contrast, Dark Souls' system doesn't even function well 1v1. As for boss fights, that's more a general action-game problem than anything Nioh/Souls related. I can't think of any action game that's done double boss fights well in single-player.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
I highly doubt that... purely because it uses a lock on system. For 1v1 its fine but throw one other enemy into the mix and the challenge of micromanaging both the camera and lock on system completely eclipses whatever challenge fighting two enemies is suppose to feel like. Couple that with No Code to prevent off screen enemies from attacking and you have the Full Dark Souls experience. 
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Sotherius
Well-Known Member
I highly doubt that... purely because it uses a lock on system. For 1v1 its fine but throw one other enemy into the mix and the challenge of micromanaging both the camera and lock on system completely eclipses whatever challenge fighting two enemies is suppose to feel like. Couple that with No Code to prevent off screen enemies from attacking and you have the Full Dark Souls experience.
The fact that lock on exists doesn't mean you have to use it all the time. In Nioh (and dark souls as well), you have a lot of crowd control options that have really significant AOE to deal with the multiple enemies problem, and also great part of your moveset is based around dealing with multiple enemies.
Also, off screen enemies shouldn't be passive, you should be aware of them. This kind of system (the only case i remember this happening is on devil may cry games) only gives exploitable manners to deal with enemies while also stopping the player from learning and adapting.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
No you don't.... yes they exist.... and they work... somewhat... but you don't just have them... you have to grind for them.... granted you can try not to grind for them but you'd have divert resources away from thngs like health and armor upgrades to attain said methods of Crowd Control...
Thats why people just use a bow or throwable items and kill baddies one at a time... the mechanics most definitely are not designed to take on Multiple enemies (of any kind) at once.
Basically what I'm saying its impractical to play the game that way. Especially in Dark Souls 3 where they nerfed poise into the Dirt.
Yeah... if they politely stand still hand huddle up together then yes your tiny Katana can graze past most of them.
Like I said:
And God Of War and The Arkham Games.
If you ruin your own enjoyment of the game by deliberately making the camera Face a wall so you can take on one enemy at a time then thats your own fault.... what your describing is a case that only affecs a small minute number of players who think having an in game map is Hand Holding.... screw'em... they wouldn't know good game design if it cornered them in a dark corridor and and attacked them from both sides.... like Dark Souls.
I mean seriously... "Be aware of offscreen enemies" ? If you're going to blame players off dying because they took an arrow in the back while they were locked on to some other enemy then you might aswel blame them for getting killed because of the Network Lag or frame rate drops... oh wait... they already do that.
That, Sweetness, is the Hardcore Dark Souls experience.
I mean sure, if you're married to the idea that a game having a lock-on of any kind means that multiple-enemy encounters won't work well then it's going to be impossible for Nioh to overcome that. It should also be noted that Ninja Gaiden has a soft target-lock (Ryu automatically re-aligns himself to face nearby enemies when attacking), so employing that mindset to it's fullest would mean that Ninja Gaiden can't do multiple enemy encounters well, either. Difference with Nioh is that you have more control over which target you're prioritizing at which time. Unlike Dark Souls, Nioh has a 360 guard system, so as long as you have a moderate degree of situational awareness and know how to group/prioritize enemies, the target system really doesn't interfere with managing multiple foes. Learn your stuns, i-frames, hitboxes, dodge/step range, etc. and most encounters will feel quite smooth.
Some encounters obviously don't play well, but that has more to do with the respective enemies selected than merely having multiple enemies at all.
Some encounters obviously don't play well, but that has more to do with the respective enemies selected than merely having multiple enemies at all.
As does every action game. It sounds like you just feel that action games in general don't work. Pretty much every adventure game ever limits your visual awareness of the environment to whatever angle is shown on screen (and spoiler: shit off-screen still happens), and leaves it up to the player to manage where that screen faces. This is not a "Dark Souls" thing. You're very confused.throw one other enemy into the mix and the challenge of micromanaging both the camera and lock on system completely eclipses whatever challenge fighting two enemies is suppose to feel like. Couple that with No Code to prevent off screen enemies from attacking and you have the Full Dark Souls experience.
Sotherius
Well-Known Member
That is not the case in NiOH, most resources, even bombs and all that stuff can be acquired through skillpaths from naturally leveling up. Also, even if it was something you had to grind or get it somehow, it is still part of the game mechanically. Keep in mind this is a NiOH thread, and most of my points were directly towards NiOH.
And that is why you have attacks with the hitbox circling around William.
That is why you have attacks that move william in certain directions.
That is why you have attacks that are completely invincible during their animation.
That is why you have living weapon that will give you massive AOE boost while also keeping Ryu undamaged for a certain period of time.
And i'm talking about only mechanics tied to what you get early on on the game, i could bring talismans, ninja items, traps, Ranged weapons...
Now to address your off-screen enemy complaints.
First - Again, you bring dark souls to the table, i'm not even talking about it, i'm talking about action games in general.
Devil May Cry is a good action series, really is, but the offscreen passivity is mostly because the series has more fixed camera angles than free ones, that is why the game makes offscreen enemies more passive, because you don't have control of the camera, and where to look at. But then, dmc 3 and 4 have somewhat free camera in a lot of places, so you got exploitable areas in general.
God of War also has fixed camera angles as far as i remember, and it is also a game focused on doing Quick time events more than the actual combat.
Arkham games, the combat against enemies with melee moveset and ranged moveset as far as i remember (only played arkham city) are completely different instances, so, there is not a momment where you should really be aware of anything, the game just hands everything to you.
Now, let's talk about what i mean here, Awareness in action games that let you control the camera.
In Bayonetta, enemies will attack offscreen, there is actually an enemy that you really can't keep on screen all the time, since it is too big and it is a platform you walk on, dodging attacks is ever a problem in bayonetta? Actually, no, it isn't, because every attack in the game has a proper sound cue to it, you can pretty much dodge everything the game throws at you with eyes closed. The fact that dodging is tied to a single button press that gives you instant invincibility and you can cancel anything into it makes possible to avoid attacks at any time.
In Ninja Gaiden Black, enemies with long ranged attacks are different from the regular ones, in every encounter in the game, due to the nature of level design and how you progress, you always see the enemies when the encounter starts, so if there is any enemy with ranged attacks, you know they are there, and their attacks have distinct sounds as well, and are reactable. Also, in ninja gaiden black, while you can't cancel everything into dodge, if you're grounded, you can block attacks midscreen. You also have a huge ammount of moves with invincibility to get around places, and your block is instant and 360.
In Ninja Gaiden 2, the game has some problematic projectile shooters, more so the Master Ninja Arrow shooters, that react to your vulnerable momments and have projectiles so fast that feel boderline hitscan, and believe me, i hate that a lot, but the game really does gives you a lot of mechanics to work around those enemies, and most of them are related to using the enviroment, ninpos, using the enemies in the way, you always find creative ways to deal with the situation, even if it is a clear problem for someone like me. (also the game has the history of being not balanced and playtesting was rushed, so the story could be another)
In Wonderful 101, enemies will attack offscreen as well, and they have proper sound cues as well, and the game mechanics support reaction for that in many ways as well.
in Ninja Gaiden 3 razor's edge, the only ninja gaiden game where Ranged enemies will appear on areas you can't reach, and also spawn in the middle of the fight, still gives you plenty of ways to deal with them without ever being a problem. First, your bow lock on will target ranged enemies first if they are on sight, second, every projectile that those enemies have is blockable, third, those enemies have unique lines of dialog when they spawn, and the attacks are properly cued as well. And the other enemies that you can fight normally but also have ranged attacks, have windups to their ranged moves, or sound cues, or any sign that makes possible for you to avoid the attack.
Now, going back to NiOH, NiOH is an action-rpg developed by team ninja, and a lot of what i talked here applies to NiOH, ranged enemies are always placed on areas that you get to know they are there, ranged attacks are most of them blockable, keeping enemies on screen is actually easy with camera controls, and enemies have properly cued moves both in animation and in sound. So, with your moveset, and your free control of the camera, there should be no reason at all to get caught by offscreen attacks, with very little exceptions where you trap yourself in a bad position or something like that.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
We'll see... I didn't get far into NioH but they did throw multi enemy encounters early on and it has all the exact same problems Dark Souls.... also saying something is "part of a game" isn't really saying anothing.... bugs are a part of a game, doesn't mean they're good.
That stuff is Weapon Specific and what good is a hitbox surrounding me if it has no range (talking about the Chain and Sickle weapon), I don't think I've yet to actually hit two enemies with a single attack in the Mid Stance (thats the one with the most range for that specfic weapon not counting the High Stance heavy attack) just because the enemies won't sit still long enough for that to actually happen... its easy to talk about it in theory but it never actually happens... atleast not to me.
Also I have encountered no such invincible attacks so far.
This mechanic is weird, why on earth is it completely invincible for so long ? I killed my First Revenant with this thing.... either way its definitely not something I would rely on purely because you might not have it when you need and you have it when you don't. For now I'l jus ight off as a rebranded version of the Devil Trigger.... unless I encounter a situation where its necessary to use it... then that would be problem due to its availability (or lak there of)
They are Quick Time Finishing Moves... the QTEs don't take the place of combat, they merely add them in after most of the combat has taken place..... that being said... I still don't like QTEs.
That only time this has happen to me was when the enemy initiates the attack while it was still on screen and the camera moved causing the enemy to go off screen... the attack still happens.... either way... not as bad as in the Souls clones. They actually have encounters exclusively designed to ensure you get hit by off screen enemies.
Which enemy ? Flying Ships ? No thats not right... they weren't big..... I'm sorry you'l have to refresh my memory, which enemy was it ?
I only played the demo... game was pretty shameless with Stabbing me in the Back....
I saw this in MatthewMatosis' review, apparently sometimes it works and other times it doesn't (the spaceship section).
Haven't played this either... hoping for that HD Remaster.
It seems like the general theme of your point is the sound cues.... as is always the case in every other aspect of game design... Execution is Everything. And that brings us to....
The ranged attacks being blockable is of absolutely no use if you can't see them.
But thats okay if you can hear them right ? Yeah so far... where I am.... if there is an audio cue for the ranged enemies then I sure as hell aint gonna hear it if its being drowned out by something else.... like whatever sounds are generated from me engaging in battle with another enemy.
You're right... the camera controls are great for keeping both enemies in focus, and the williams controls are quick and responsive (mostly)... but if you're locked on the camera will move in unpredictable ways based on how the enemy moves relative to how you move aswell making it unreliable.
Now I could unlock the camera and try to manage it myself, but unless I have three thumbs this is stupid because I can't constantly adjust the camera and fight the enemies at the same time since I can't manipulate the right stick and the face buttons simultaneously.... I'd have to alternate constantly between the two.... this is the Micromanaging I was talking about earlier.
Also really its unviable to try to fight without Locking on... your attacks just flatout miss at point blank range... I could sometimes do this in Dark Souls if the enemies were large enough but so far in NioH I've been fighting a bunch of humans and William will miss wildly if I don't use the lock on feature.
Really it shouldn't be the player's job to keep all the enemies on onscreen just because it never occurred to anyone to use a different camera... something God Of War and DMC figured out long before Demon Souls came out... which makes me think they were just being deliberately cheap in true Souls fashion.
I don't know why so many developers are trying to copy Dark Souls... at first I just assumed they were just lazy and are passing off Rubbish Design as a Form of a challenge.... but I don't know.....
I just want someone to give an Honest explanation of why they think its gameplay is good.... the operative word being "Honest".... I'm immediately going to call bulshit if I hear the words "Fair" or "Chalenging"... clearly those words have a competely different meaning in the Souls Nomenclature so an explanation would be helpful.
The Kusari-gama has the best range in the game. Even in mid stance, it's quite easy to hit mutliple targets with the square button, so long as you are moderately competent at positioning yourself.
They're usually tied to skills. Parries are always invincible when they connect. Blade-spin for the kusari-gama has some i-frames, etc. Grapples (backstabs and heavy moves agaisnt enemies with zero ki) also have i-frames.
It's weird, but more useful than Devil-Trigger (unless you're counting the broken damage bursts on activation). It coats your weapon with the respective elemental type, meaning that if you normally use a water weapon but are facing a water-resistant enemy, you can activate a flame living weapon to counter it. You also get access to a special spirit ability based on the spirirt you have equipped, though it depletes the gauge faster. Taking damage also depletes the active gauge in relation to the spirit's stats, so taking note of those is helpful if you plan to use a living weapon build.
Personally, I tend to use spirits more for the passives than the living weapon, and hardly ever activated living weapon on my first playthrough. Definitely not essential for completing the game.
Yeah, but in God of War it's clear that more focus went into the flashy finishing moves than refining the core combat mechanics. Judging based on pure gameplay, the God of War games are pretty damn boring. Their appeal is in their sense of scale and adventure.
What? First of all, God of War II and III's gameplay auto-pilots in a way that makes it largely irrelevant whether enemies are on-screen or not. God of War I is a bit different. Most of the difficulty comes from environment traps (which are partially camera issues) and then a few projectile enemies and the cerberus dogs (the latter mainly because you have to dedicate a year-and-half to whittle down their absurdly large health pools).
DMC certainly never solved this "problem." DMC3 is the worst offender of all, because you're trying to manipulate the camera constantly. Only it's not to show you your enemies, it's that you're trying to NOT see your enemies so they don't attack you. It's really dumb. In DMC4 shit is attacking you off-screen all the time (fausts, chimera-lizards, blitz, etc.).
TN didn't "copy" Dark Souls anymore than Crash Bandicoot "copied" Super Mario Bros. Some of the structural elements were taken from Dark Souls that I didn't feel needed to be (xp grave/stains upon death, checkpoint respawns, etc.), but the complaints we're addressing here are not related to those. The combat in Nioh is mechanically much different and it feels much different. If you're unable to get past having a target-lock then fine, that's your prerogative, but it's not like the Souls games invented or even pioneered target-locking in action games (target-locking is a thing in DMC, for example, as well as countless other action games).
-Responsive and fluid controls across a wonderful variety of weapons, skills and attack types, allowing for highly customizable gameplay approaches and strategies.
-Ki pulse/defilement system adds a sort of rhythm to the combat that keeps things fast but deliberate. You can't randomly mash away at things, but you're also not forced to sit in a corner like a coward waiting for your stamina to recharge.
-Most enemies are well-designed in abilities and patterns. Furthermore, the fact they all have a ki supply as well adds an interesting dimension to resource management that no other action games currently rival.
There are other things, but if you can't find any merit in those points, then your mind is made up and it's hardly worth going into any more depth. Those are "honest" reasons.
Sotherius
Well-Known Member
Yes, i'm talking about kinships, if you're on the platform, most of their attacks happen offscreen, which is a non problem considering each attack has a different sound.
If every audio is distinct from one another and the game does the correct audio balancing (which NiOH does), you should be able to tell what you're hearing. "Oh, i'm hearing a bowshot, let me adjust for that".
I'm talking about that, NiOH, because of its diablo-loot system and leveling up, gets somewhat broken, but it is still at its core an action game, developed by the developers of Ninja Gaiden (best action game series in general, IMO), and is something they delivered in all games, it doesn't matter how much "unfair" or "bullshit" or "impossible" a challenge is, you can overcome with skill, with practice, with better reactions, with better understanding of the mechanics, and learning all of that is part of the fun.
breathofflame34
Active Member
So, as someone who has played DS2, DS3, and Bloodborne. and loved all 3 of them, how similar would you say Nioh would be like one of them? I've actually been checking the game out for a while now, and it looks pretty cool, even more so do to Japanese myhtology seeming to be a large plot point, which is something I am interested in learning more about.