DOA5U Phase 4 Match-up discussion

[tokiopewpew]

I recently had a long conversation about some of Phase's match ups, and since the tier list discussion thread is a bit disarranged, I deceided to start a separate thread.

I think it would be helpful if there is a thread where people can get some ideas about when to use which moves and what kind of things are to look out for while facing certain characters. That being said, I do not know every move, frame data or detail about every character of the roster.

Sure, match-up discussions always need someone who knows really well about the basic game mechanics and the character(s) that are going to be taken a look at, but I still want to encourage everyone who might take a look at this thread and has some opinions to given statements to feel free for taking a part in it.

 

[tokiopewpew]

At first, I'd like to summarize some information about Phase's match up with Ein, a character that is currently stated as almost the same tier as Phase (For the official FSD tier list, see here)

vs

In general, Ein has better pokes as Phase in neutral (e.g.: a safe 6P that's outdamaging hers, 2P which grants him +1 at normal hit), while she overtops him in terms of combo damage and mixup game. As long as he is properly slow escaping in stun and not heavily relying on pressing buttons on block, Phase will still have to put in some effort to open Ein up. It is risky for her to rely on tick throwing and single poking too much because Ein does not to be afraid of trying to counterpoke since he has more safety in general. Baits like a delayed 6PP, 1PP or (P)KK won't work very well against him because of his 2P.

Although Phase can use her own 2P to stop his offensive and harass him, she is still prone to sidestepping due to having almost no tracking. Ein, having a low that is +1, a mid that's outdamaging hers and a fast tracking high forces her to use jabs from time to time. Nevertheless, Ein will have the edge when it comes to guessing games in neutral, unless he's not at +1:

Ein:

• P will beat out Phase's 6P
• 2P beats Phase's P

Phase:

• P beats Ein's 3P and P
• 6p beats out his 3P and 2P
• 2p beats out his high and his mid

In terms of damage, Ein can take 100+ at the wall but at midscreen, he's rarely getting that much. His stun lauch game reaches about 70 - 90, whereas Phase hit's with 90+, even on midweights like he is one. However, it is still difficult for Phase to land that much damage after an initial stun out of her preferred counterhit-tools like 6P, 3P or PK due to the fact that she would need to use 33K for this, which can be slow escaped easily. Therefore, Phase has to take care that she's not going to overuse high and mid punch attacks after landing a stun.

Although 6PP (or 6P) is the best tool for starting up a high damage mixup due to it's deep stun, there is also the opportunity of making use of 3P or P+K to get into the teleport immediatly. On a second leg to stand on, it has to be considered that her reward for using a mid kick is relatively small. A 7K launch after stun will give her ~80 damage, but the juggle often get's messed up by the environment and would cause a wall slam when used close to a wall. H+K and 3K will put herself into an more disadvantageous position due to their pushback, so the only tool worth to use is 6K which is known for having hitbox issues and being prone to intime-low holds.

That all means that using a high seems to be very inviting for her. 4K as a fast and wall-friendly launch is as good as 8K, her jabs and kicks
are good to extend the stun very quickly and prevent attempts of slow escaping. However, going back to the fact that Ein can make use of his 2P quite carefree and has some good high crushes in his arsenal leads to the point that Phase as to commit harder as he does.

There's no doubt that Ein will beat her out in overall safety and the range game. Phase is about double digit negative with almost every attack on block and her only good range tools are 6PP and 3P+K P (safe at -4), while Ein offers safe pokes at close range as well as long range kicks and delayable, evasive punches (as P+K, 46P or 4P+K) for high effective whiff punishment at range. Both can take additional advantage out of their environment. It is debatable who might have the better strings, since Phase is very unsafe but able to go high mid, whereas Ein is all about high to low. That means, he's not able to use tick throw tactics that easy because a low or ducking after PP will spoil all of his opportunities except PPP, which is sidesteppable, unsafe and punishable.

Both Phase and Ein have good throws, reaching about 100+ damage on high counter. Ein's has a slight favor in this department due to having OH's and an 33T that deals more damage as hers while being 5 frames faster. However, in ceiling, Phase might take big advantage out of her 236T which grants her a guaranteed PB and massive wall damage (~120), so she should take use of that.

Putting all these things together, I'd personally say that this match-up tends to be a 5-5. Ein is in favor in more departments, but Phase takes the more important ones. A short summary would look like this:

Phase:

+ speed
+ damage
+ throws in ceiling
+ mixup
​

Ein:

+ midweight
+ neutral
+ tracking
+ range game
+safety
+ throws in general

​

That's it. As mentioned in the intro post, I hope everyone who might take a look at this (especially with the intention to play one of those characters) can get some ideas about how to jump into this match-up. It's needless to say that any kind of feedback is appreciated. Also, shoutout @Tenryuga for giving some serious input about Ein's situation in this match up.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Just as a side note, I'd like to write down some things about the Phase vs Bayman match up, because I think this is a very interesting and difficult one for her (and because I have some more time during the holidays ).

vs

At first glance, it likely happens that one's getting some prejudices about this MU, since Bayman is a slow and lethargic grappler that has to fight a fast and high damaging striker. However, that's surely not what it is, as a small comparison of interesting points already shows:

Phase:

+ speed (9/12/12)
+ mixup in stun
+ slightly better range tools
+ high juggle damage

- lack of tracking
- lightweight
- highly unsafe​

Bayman:

+ super-heavyweight
+ evasive moves and offensive holds (e.g. tank roll)
+ better tracking
+ overal safer
+ decent oki

- slow (11/13/16)

​

Although Bayman is indeed not a beast when it comes to speed and juggle damage, he's still capable of shutting down Phase's offensive game, which has it's biggest advantage in the ability of getting counterhit's with his evasive rolls, crushes and offensive holds. Once he's able to gain momentum, he has a fairly good arsenal to keep it going. In terms of defensive, especially his tank roll (8 or 2 P+K) can be very hard to deal with, even if it's breakable.

Other relevant moves for him that are good to know about are:

3P and 33P - 13 frame mid punches that are almost the same in figures, whereby the latter is a very good high crush
6P+K - a 16 frame high punch that grants him +9 advantage on block
214P - a long range mid punch that launches on counterthit, but will leave him backturned on whiff
4K - a realtively slow mid kick that is also part of a string but is only -3 on block​

Along with our clone's unsafe nature comes the limitied ability of using free canceling and string usage, which makes offensive pressure against characters with OH's very difficult. While it is not necessary to be afraid of her neutral game in general, Bayman can simply play the turtle and punish unsafe moves or free-cancel attempts either with an OH, 4T or his faster moves like 6P+K or 3P. Thereby, the former is what might grant him the most success, since it will catch both attacks that were started after a canceled string and standing guard after a single strike.

Due to the fact that Phase's throws are average when it comes to throw punishment on heavyweights, Bayman also doesn't need to be afraid that much of making use of advanced an normal holds which grant him a lot of damage on the right guess.

For the sake of completeness, it is also to say that both characters can take decent advantage out of their environment, e.g. Phase with
guaranteed juggles and PB from 236T in ceiling and Bayman with his OH-reset close to walls.


So what are propably her best tools for this match up?

In consideration of the things mentioned above, the usage of classic tick throws (with 6T) becomes even more important because they relativate the chance of getting crushed when being in disadvantage as well as the threat of getting caught by OH's.

Playing in a more defensive way while waiting for him doing a mistake in spacing is what Phase should do most of the time, since she is in slight favor when it comes to spacing tools. H+K as keep-out and passive poking tool, 3P+K(P) as gap closer and 3P as long range poke should be used here.

While 3P is a good tool to start offensive, it has also some kind of re-track ability, which can prevent Bayman from performing his tank roll.
Same goes for her standard sidestep-buster P+K, although it would be smart to think twice about when to put this on the screen, since it is quite a risk/reward gamble due to it's unsafety and lack of potent follow-ups. Same goes for increased sidestepping after getting blocked. Although his preferred counterpokes don't track, his 6T still can be dangerous on this. Other tracking moves like 4P, 6H+K or 2H+K, even though they have this important ability, aren't that recommended to use an neutral because they are either too slow or easily slow escapable.

For everything else, Phase players should always keep in mind that they have overal speed advantage on him, that means the usage of jabs, PK and 2P as counterpokes is beyond all question. Nevertheless, caution is adviced when she breaks out of his throw combos, because in this situation, Bayman is at +3, which means his actual speeds are 8/10/13 then and Phase has to guess what he's gonna use if she does not want to get beaten out, since both his mids and highs would do so on hers.

That's about it. Unfortunately, there's nothing else I can imagine of that would help to make life easier for her in this match up, which is, according to the MU-chart, 6-4 in Bayman's favor, and which I'd also agree with.

Now, since Last Round is just around the corner, these things surely might need a review, although I don't believe that TN is going to change the overal gameplay and abilities of those characters that much that they would make given information completely obsolete. We'll see what it brings.

Thanks @Rikuto for giving some input from the point of view of a long term Bayman player to this MU. As always, critique and/or additional information is appreciated.

 

[Zephyrion]

Great thread and posts ! Even though I'm not a Phase expert, I know her well enough to give some insight on the Lei-fang and Eliot MU if needed, and other players sure do, so don't hesitate to squeeze info from everybody for the sake of our beloved clone !

 

[Zero Beat]

Phase can safely break Bayman's side tank roll and its OH with 1P, 2P (it works even though it's non-tracking), 2H+K, 1T, and 2T. 2K and 1K can work, but require that it hits before the OH, so it's not really worth the risk.

For the front tank roll, any low or mid strike will do - The strike is very slow (41 frames) and the throw from front tank roll is incorrectly listed as an OH in the move list, but it's a regular throw, though I recommend avoiding 2H+K due to a small window for that strike to work if Bayman is going for the strike.

 

[tokiopewpew]

It is correct that 1P, 2H+K and 2K can break Baymans tank roll, since they are all tracking low attacks. The negative aspect of these moves is their speed, which is 19 frames and above. Considering that you will only face the side tank roll in close quarter combat, were Phase is supposed to fish for counterhits, you will certainly have to add additional frames due to her being at disadvantage on block, which means like P+K, using all these moves become a gamble. So if Bayman deceides to counter attack instead of making use of the tank roll once you've used a poke, he'll get you.

Furthermore, you don't want to use 2H+K in that situation because it actually gives you nothing but a bit damage and another tricky situation on the wakeup guess, since it just grounds Bayman on a counterhit when he's performing the roll. Same goes for 1K.

The chance the you'll prevent him from doing the roll with the non-tracking 2P and 2K is remarkable low because you'll have to land it perfectly. The side roll itself will evade 2P because it is a linear move.

 

[Zero Beat]

Yeah, I know. You have to wait for the side roll to start for 2P to hit it, and if it's point blank you need to wait for him to be behind you. And like I said, 1K and 2K are not worth the risk. I left out the bit where they leave you standing and vulnerable to OH, which is why I recommended the low throws and strikes that leave you crouching.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Gonna make some adjustments to the given MU-explanations soon.