DOA5U Phase 4 match video and critique thread

tokiopewpew

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Since most character forums also contain a thread were we can post our match videos for further analysis, I think we should start one here as well.

As one of the most unsafe and execution-heavy character in the game, Phase 4 requires quite a lot match-up experience, combo knowledge and basics about the game mechanics. Videos showing different playstyles and tactics, commented by people who like to play and excel with her will help everyone who's taking a look here to improve these skills, so please don't be afraid to post.
 

tokiopewpew

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I'll right start with a match I recently had with a friend. Although I was able to beat him, I'm sure there are some things that might be improvable. Also, people might get an idea how she can be played in a more passive way.

 

Zephyrion

Member
I'm nowhere near being a Phase 4 expert or something, so take everything I say with a grain of salt ! Overall a great game, you punished what needed to be punished, you did some hard reads that you confirmed properly. If I had one piece of advice, it would be to use early launchers more, I recently realized that the damage output on these is really good even on lv1, so a viable strategy to avoid being held too often is to cycle through her launchers after a single stun ! Also, don't hesitate to rely a bit more on teleport mid pressure (doesn't mean you need to constantly go for it like I do, cause it does screw you when you get too predictable with it : got me punished hard a few times xD), her normal pressure is alright, but the teleports still have the merit of psyching up the opponent because of how fast it is.
I'll try to go over a few moments in this match

00:38-00:45 : This Jann Lee player cycled through crouching and standing holds, you got tricked by it once, but you did adapt well and punished him for his low holds later in the video
00:54 nice Hi counter crouching throw punish and nice confirm !
1:04 you seem to be already used to the distance requirement for the 33K, it allowed you to bait the hold and get a nice launcher out of it
1:13 third time the Jann Lee did this, it was definitely the right time to hold.
1:22 nice low crush here !
1:29 : you seem to use a lot of high attacks after 6P , don't forget you have 3P and, and sometimes 4P against early holds as mid punchs of choice. You already used 6K earlier, but you can do delay 6PK follow-up (the string is delayable enough to let you see if your 6P countered and react accordingly) or go for a 66K !
1:47 : this is probably a Kasumi reflex, but be careful about throwing 66K after the opponent's wake-up since, unlike her counterpart, you don't have any special follow-up to make it less unsafe. You did it only once though, and it ended up trading, so it's ok

Keep up the good work !
 
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tokiopewpew

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I'm nowhere near being a Phase 4 expert or something, so take everything I say with a grain of salt !

I wonder if anyone here at FSD can be considered as a Phase 4 expert yet, since she's quite new. I always like to hear opinions from other people about my gameplay, regardless if those are experts, newcomers or how you would ever call it, so I'm glad for your or anyones response.

If I had one piece of advice, it would be to use early launchers more, I recently realized that the damage output on these is really good even on lv1, so a viable strategy to avoid being held too often is to cycle through her launchers after a single stun !

I think this is really true. As a former Kasumi player, I'm used trying to reach the threshold before going for a launch, because her damage from juggles with lower height isn't that good. Since her clone deals a lot more damage even from launchers at the fist level, I guess I should just go for it more often. Our fight yesterday also showed me what I did not realize yet.

Also, don't hesitate to rely a bit more on teleport mid pressure (doesn't mean you need to constantly go for it like I do, cause it does screw you when you get too predictable with it : got me punished hard a few times xD), her normal pressure is alright, but the teleports still have the merit of psyching up the opponent because of how fast it is.

For me, the risk of getting punished by using such moves exceeds the chance of landing something useful. If I'm not wrong, the only opportunity to do some kind of teleport pressure is her 66PP. If the opponent is a more patient one and just blocking, you're not getting anything because you are not able to teleport. If you are referring to use teleports more after landing a hit with a move that allows a teleport after it, I agree though. I'm not aware of all opportunities she has in terms of that, and I'm also a bit unsure how that will work against character that have a mid parry (no MU experience yet). Phase 4 is not an offensive character with good opportunities for pressure imo, that's why I almost refuse trying to go with her for that.

1:29 : you seem to use a lot of high attacks after 6P , don't forget you have 3P and, and sometimes 4P against early holds as mid punchs of choice. You already used 6K earlier, but you can do delay 6PK follow-up (the string is delayable enough to let you see if your 6P countered and react accordingly) or go for a 66K !

I like to use highs because I can easily confirm the stun with them, although I try to mix it up as good as possible. In that fight, I did not use 3P much, that's right, but no worries, especially when I have to fight against characters with evasive moves, I'm aware of having it. People online also like to mash out mid punch holds immediatly after getting stunned.

About 4P, I'm really not sure when to use that move best. It's characteristics might be very good (chance of getting a limbo stun), but it's hella slow and therefore easily stagger escaped, held since it's a mid punch (see above) or gives me different results. Sometimes, the opponent is put into a limbo stun, sometimes not, and even in the former they are able to hold some moves (e.g. 33K) due to it's bug.

Using 6P's follow up K is something I did not yet after landing a stun with it because I was not aware of good opportunities I can get out of it. However, since you mentioned it, I tried a bit around and I'm quite surprised that the damage I can deal with it's teleport options is quite worth it. So I'll surely go for that more often.

1:47 : this is probably a Kasumi reflex, but be careful about throwing 66K after the opponent's wake-up since, unlike her counterpart, you don't have any special follow-up to make it less unsafe. You did it only once though, and it ended up trading, so it's ok

I usually don't like to use 66K that much, but sure, you are right. Since it's actually worse as Kasumi's because it does not have a real follow-up, it's indeed really stupid to use it that way.

Well, I'll work on the things you mentioned, thanks a lot for giving me that analysis. It helps me a lot :).
 

Tenryuga

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I'll right start with a match I recently had with a friend. Although I was able to beat him, I'm sure there are some things that might be improvable. Also, people might get an idea how she can be played in a more passive way.


I'm not sure @Zephyrion meant using the teleport stuff as block-strings. I believe he meant when you get stuns. Since most of her teleport mixups hit mid you can go for things like CH 6P > 3P chifu K > air throw for some quick damage. Or you can cancel at the teleport and do some other mixup. In addition to her high damage output phase 4's stun game is no joke. Be it stun > launch or mixups to reach threshold shes got that and the hi counter throw damage to make you afraid to hold.

I agree with that because of all the low holding that was going on by your opponent. Zeph already made his suggestions and mine are the same. Your play was solid overall as usual.

:kasumi-alpha:
 

Zephyrion

Member
If you are referring to use teleports more after landing a hit with a move that allows a teleport after it, I agree though. I'm not aware of all opportunities she has in terms of that, and I'm also a bit unsure how that will work against character that have a mid parry (no MU experience yet).

Yeah sorry, I was meaning exactly that, just said it the wrong way I guess. you have to make a difference between Chifu and Tenfu teleports. On Tenfu the stun is good, but not as good as Chifu, but you still have the mid punch for mixups, the mid kick for juggles (guaranteed on fastest SE for :6::6::K: and :8::K:, but not :6::P::K:, although it is still really hard to SE fast enough on this one) and the often forgotten throw, which works like her 8T to catch holds. Now Chifu teleports are a lot nastier since the stun on :1::P::P: Chifu and :3::P: Chifu midstun is humonguous ( You can empty teleport into anything that is 14 frames or less on fastest stagger escape !!) and you retain the natural Chifu follow-ups with a Critical Burst mid punch, a wall splatting high punch, a mid kick launcher and a throw for early holds !

you can't parry mid-stun so don't worry about that^^


About 4P, I'm really not sure when to use that move best. It's characteristics might be very good (chance of getting a limbo stun), but it's hella slow and therefore easily stagger escaped, held since it's a mid punch (see above) or gives me different results. Sometimes, the opponent is put into a limbo stun, sometimes not, and even in the former they are able to hold some moves (e.g. 33K) due to it's bug.

It's a tricky situational risk and reward tool and more a personal favorite than anything . for the limbo you get it if you use :4::P: midstun when your opponent is not in the same stance as you (your back facing the camera and the opponent's front facing it or vice versa) you'll get the limbo. I mostly use it as a hold trap when I am a bit too far to throw or hit , like after a :3::K: counter as it will naturally beat every mistimed hold, and also trick people when used in rotation with :6::6::K:. Even without the limbo stun, you still retain many options after it thanks to the lengthy crumple stun. Shouldn't have mentioned as an option after :6::P: still, as :3::P: does a far better job at that range !
Also I was not aware there was a bug on the limbo stun, could you explain it to me ?
 
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tokiopewpew

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you can't parry mid-stun so don't worry about that^^

Okay, I was quite doubtful about that.

It's a tricky situational risk and reward tool and more a personal favorite than anything . for the limbo you get it if you use :4::P: midstun when your opponent is not in the same stance as you (your back facing the camera and the opponent's front facing it or vice versa) you'll get the limbo.

I'm not sure if I understand that right, I'll try it out next time I'm able to play.

Also I was not aware there was a bug on the limbo stun, could you explain it to me ?

Well, I'm actually not 100% sure if it's a bug, but since AiN called it one and it looks really weird indeed, I still believe it's not how it's supposed to be:

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa5u-phase-4-combo-video-by-ain.4637/#post-195375

Thanks for your further explanations.
 

tokiopewpew

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look at 1:20 for everything regarding stances, it still works this way in Ultimate !

Oh, I see ...
My god, I'm playing the game for almost a year now and that's something I never paid attention to because I either did not know or did't took it seriously.

So yeah, I feel like I got an egg on my face now, but it looks like I learned something new.
Again, thanks a lot for the help.
 

Zephyrion

Member
Oh, I see ...
My god, I'm playing the game for almost a year now and that's something I never paid attention to because I either did not know or did't took it seriously.

So yeah, I feel like I got an egg on my face now, but it looks like I learned something new.
Again, thanks a lot for the help.

Well, it's normal, it's something really specific, and a lot of characters don't even have to bother caring about stances, I only learned about them because I was baffled by the random limbo stun happening with Marie Rose's :h:+:K: xD
 

Chapstick

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I don't have any really good replays but I'll contribute since this subforum is going slower. The following videos contain me dropping teleports, abusing 3P~chi~K, attacking from disadvantage, and accidentally doing wrong juggles. For the most part I know what I'm doing wrong and have to change but input is always good. The weird stuff at the beginnings is waiting for the lag to go away, my friend has a strange internet connection where it's horrible at the very start of every match but gets butter smooth shortly after.


I was taking this much more seriously. :p 0:25 & 0:42 shoulda 6PK'd but was taken off guard by the dropped teleports.


I hold a lot against Helenas. This match I was all about 3P~chi~K. :/ It's good to use sparingly, but I should mix up with the other chifu options. 0:31, I'm so used to doing Kasumi's KK7K from this hold. 1:06 wtf happened
 

Zero Beat

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I really need to learn the range of 8T. Round 4 was terrifying.


I must get better! But this guy beat me easily the first time we fought, so I'm glad I won a round, let alone the match.
 
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tokiopewpew

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I really need to learn the range of 8T. Round 4 was terrifying.


I must get better! But this guy beat me easily the first time we fought, so I'm glad I won a round, let alone the match.

Cool, finally we got some more videos here :D
Ok, I'd like to tell you a couple of things that I think you should try to improve:

The thing you always should keep in mind is, that you are playing our adorable Phase 4. Since she's one of the most unsafe characters in the game, literally 98% of your moves that will be blocked by your opponent will leave you at disadvantage. That means, if you still attack right after it and use a slower attack as your opponent does, you will get stunned. So either use a fast attack (like her jab) or a crush (like her 2P or 33P) after something. However, you are better off just blocking as long as you don't play offline against someone who's going to throw punish everything (more solid players will do that even online). I highly recommend to check again what her safe moves are (in the general discussion thread) and learning how to fuzzy guard.

Right at start of the first round, you are using 4P, which is one of the slowest moves she has and therefore not the best idea. You should use her jabs, K, 6P or 2P instead. Bayman is slower as you in general (remember, you have the fastest punch in the game), so you are better of taking advantage out of this.

You are already making good usage of her mixup opportunities out of teleports, as well as her critical burst which is hard to react to due to being so fast. Still try to mix up your game even more by using her launchers (8K, 33K, 33P, 9K threshold), because in 60% of your offensive moments, you were going for a critical burst. Do that to a more solid Bayman player and Phase will end up having all her graceful limbs broken by painful advanced holds. Same goes for attempts to land a rare power blow. Good players will hold that on reaction or hit you before you've charged it.

You tend to press buttons as soon as you get up after a tech roll. In some cases, you'll be at disadvantage if the opponent has grounded you, so you would get counter-hit quite a lot if you are doing that too often. Doing a tech-roll is good in general, however, if you notice that your opponent is not going for immediate force-tech, you can stay on the ground too waiting what he's doing. If he's just wildly throwing out some attacks, you can go for a wakeup-kick to get offensive momentum back, since you are invulnerable to normal attacks while lying on the ground.

Note that doing a wakeup kick is not recommended when he's just standing right in front of you doing nothing, because that means he's almost waiting for holding your wakeup-kick with a chance of 50% success (like at 1:19).

You use her 7P to get some space between you and your opponent very fast. This is a very good idea, though you should also think about what to do with that space. In most cases, you were just standing there, not even blocking and just waiting for him to come in. Watch out for characters like Hayate and Hayabusa, who can teleport right in you face (or behind you) as well as characters with long range attacks like Kasumi or Phase with their 3P+K P. If you're not blocking or moving then, you'll make it easy for them to hit you. Next thing you should consider is, that you can't just stand there waiting for him to come if you don't have the life lead and there is a counter running down. If I have the life lead, I can turtle 24/7 in a corner until the round is over, waiting for you to come in with something unsafe like 66PP or 66K, therefore, this is something you should take care of since Phase is not a beast in opening turtles and passive players.

Trying to use her long range grabs like 8T and 3P+K T is also good, just be careful with them and don't use them too much. Please no worries, altogether, it wasn't a terrible performance and a good comeback indeed, so I hope you don't get scared off because of my wall of text here. You neither mash nor play without having kind of a plan, which means you already have the best preconditions to become a solid Phase 4 player. I'm looking forward to see more from you soon, keep it up!
 
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Zero Beat

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That wall of text is a wall of learning that I must make use of if I am to get as good as I want to be. Thanks for the tips! That is why I am here. Plus, you just taught me that I've been using tech rolls wrong. And yeah, I tend to back up and stand there thinking I'll be ready to counter whatever they throw at me, only to get punched/kicked in the face when I don't react as fast as I should. More defense is needed.

I'm going to practice a bit against CPU level 8 before I go back online again.

Thanks again for the tips! I shall become stronger.
 
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tokiopewpew

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Oh please, don't get me wrong, I don't meant to say you are using tech-rolls wrong in general. Doing a tech roll is always recommended because it prevents you to receive further damage while lying on the ground as well as to have advantage after you opponent whiffed an fore-tech attempt. What you just have to do is to pay attention on what you will do right after getting up, depending on what the other player is currently doing. For example, if he's already performing a string of attacks and you try to attack too, you will get hit easily in most cases. Doing a tech roll, then just blocking or (if you know his string) holding instead would be a better idea and prevents you to get right after one awkward situation into the next one.

Also, it is absolutely okay to back off and just wait to see what your opponent is doing, especially if you are not very familiar with the match-up and the moves of the other character. It's better as pressing buttons useless without hitting anything. I also prefer to surrender the field to my opponent (except I was able to push him near to a wall, corner or dangerzone) and allow him to play the active role in the fight since I'm the one who has to go for counters anyway (Those who like to would call it turtling immediately).

However, if your opponent clearly shows he does not want to be the active part (because he also does not need to if he has more life as you do) you are almost forced to do it. And since you are playing poorly equipped Phase 4, you won't have it easier this way. Nevertheless, I highly recommend you to block at least when you are standing still, because of the things I mentioned in my post above.

Of course, this is just how it works for me in most cases and how I learned it from other experts here, everyone is good in different play styles, though.

Playing against the AI a lot first is a very good idea. I can only recommend this to everyone who's quite new to the game because it helps you to solidify your setups and learned combos. You need to be firm with your own necessary inputs and proper tools for situations first, before being able to pay more attention to your opponents actions. On level 8, the AI is almost good enough to get you on a level were you can beat a lot of players online too.
 

Chapstick

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I firmly believe her 8T should be an OH, she needs that more than Alpha does. >:/

I really need to learn the range of 8T. Round 4 was terrifying.


I must get better! But this guy beat me easily the first time we fought, so I'm glad I won a round, let alone the match.
Tokyo said most of it. I suggest using her H+K when someone's running in on you, it's a tracking mid that has good range and I hear a small hurtbox for Phase. Try launching with 33K more, it'll get those pesky people that try to low hold out of stuns like that Brad player. Also her stun launch game is amazing, I notice you try to get them to threshold before launching a lot.
 
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tokiopewpew

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As for the AI, eh don't rely on training with it. It cheats like crazy and makes you learn to exploit it in ways a human opponent could see right through.

?

The AI might do some things that are actually not allowed for human players (according to some people here on this site, personally, I've never seen anything like that), but even if, these are veeeeery rare and who cares? You'll still get much more positive things out of playing it as beginner, instead of forming bad habits like mashing what only works online.

It will neither steal your advantage in terms of frames, nor bother you're game with lags and complaints. You will also learn what you are actually allowed to do and what not as well as getting punished for doing the same things, meaning you'll learn how to mix you play up. What is unsafe on block and can be punished simply is unsafe, there's nothing even the AI can do about. Losing against the AI offline is ways less frustrating as losing against things that are actually not even allowed according to the game mechanics.

An AI is (how you would call it) cheating in almost every game because otherwise it simply won't be a challenge for a solid human player due to it being limited to pre-assembled algorithms. Strategy games are good example of that. However, the level 8 AI in DOA is actually playing the game ways more solid as the majority of the mashers online.
 

tokiopewpew

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Other games don't have holds that the AI loves to spam. And their holds at higher levels are never wrong.

That is wrong. The AI does neither spam holds nor are they always right. If you get held on everything it just means you should think about doing something against these holds (throw?) or just mix up better. Check out the ROF finals between Gehaktbal and SweetRevenge to see how crazy right holds can be, even on humans.

Also, for finding out what you can do does not mean that the AI has to punish you with throws only. If you attack from high disadvantage, you will also get counter-hit by it's strikes. Either way, you'll take damage and see that you did something wrong. I don't know about you guys, but I learn things better the visual way, so just looking at the frame data table doesn't help me much. I would call that "learnig by doing".
 
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Zero Beat

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Playing against the AI gives me a chance to try stuff out to see if it works. Still trying to figure out when to use 8K (the range is pretty short, unfortunately). I'm also getting better at countering and have started to actually guard.

My combo off of critical burst is pretty much set now - those videos were early and now my new combo is 33K 4P 4K~P+K K~P+K T. Drop 4P against super heavies, delay 4P and replace 4K with 7K~P+K against Alpha. If it starts to get near a wall, do 33K, then 4K once for superheavies, 3 times for Alpha, 2 times against everyone else, and finish it off with PKKK. The problem is getting the critical burst to begin with, since it's going to be a mid punch either way. I can get away with it a lot more against the AI, but against humans it requires a good mixup game so they have to guess.

I'm also weaning myself off throwing out a power blow unless it's after a critical burst or if my enemy whiffs and has a long cooldown.
 

tokiopewpew

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Playing against the AI gives me a chance to try stuff out to see if it works. Still trying to figure out when to use 8K (the range is pretty short, unfortunately).

8K is used best for wall juggles, when your opponent's back is close to a wall or corner. For example, for your wall combo on middleweights:

(CB) 33K 4K 4K PKKK

... you would deal 81 damage with the juggle alone on normal hit. You can increase the damage by using 8K instead. When you do:

(CB) 33K 4K 8K Tenfu P PKKK

... you will deal 87 damage on normal hit, 106 on counter-hit.


8K usually can be also used after every Tenfu P during a juggle when the launch height is high enough, and after 33K when you are close enough to the opponent. For example:

(CB or counter-hit) 33K 8K Tenfu P 8K Tenfu T

is a whole 8K juggle that works on middleweights. You can also use 8K after an intiiate stun (like a 6P counter hit) for a mini-juggle that will deal at least about 80 damage. Like 6P (ch) 8K Tenfu K 4P 6PK.
 
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