Selectable hold (3-point and 4-point)

d3v

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#1
As the PlayStation stream has shown, the game will allow the selection between 4-point holds and 3-point holds.

Now at this point, I'm assuming that the 4-point system will be the standard for competitive play, both tournaments and ranked matches online.

is everyone in agreement with this, or are there actually any arguments for a 3 point system.
 
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WAZAAAAA

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#3
(related)

The Dreamcast version of 3rd Strike had the "system direction" menu which allowed you to customize really advanced mechanics such as:
- proximity blocking distance
- disabling ground/air/red parries
- adjusting the parry window
- toggling absolute guard
- disabling chip damage
and countless more... it was neat. It's good to have the option  ̄\_(ツ)_/ ̄
 
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Rikuto

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#5
Its a nice addition, 3 point holds are definitely nice for casual players and beginners, I personally couldn't go back to 3 point holds though... Muscle memory sees a kick and presses 6H.
Here's the problem. Fighting game players take the path of least resistance. Bad players moreso. If a beginner finds that its easier to play the game a certain way, he isn't likely to break that habit ever. He will keep playing 3 point, and the worst among them will even try to argue for its validity.

All this will do is result in a scenario where the base gets split on how the game should be played, and instead of beginners eventually ascending to competitive status they will stick to the path of least resistance and remain bad players forever.

Wazaaaa might like the option, but he just likes dicking with game mechanics in general. The impact it will have on the general community will be horrible.
 

NewWestFan

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#6
Here's the problem. Fighting game players take the path of least resistance. Bad players moreso. If a beginner finds that its easier to play the game a certain way, he isn't likely to break that habit ever. He will keep playing 3 point, and the worst among them will even try to argue for its validity.

All this will do is result in a scenario where the base gets split on how the game should be played, and instead of beginners eventually ascending to competitive status they will stick to the path of least resistance and remain bad players forever.

Wazaaaa might like the option, but he just likes dicking with game mechanics in general. The impact it will have on the general community will be horrible.
Feel like you might be exaggerating the impact it's going to have just a little but you aren't wrong. It's definitely going to create a divide. I can see myself now looking through the lobby list and rolling my eyes with a "Pffft" at all of the 3-point rooms while I'm looking for a solid 4-point with good ping. Like any game with a worthwhile competitive base these new players who gravitate towards 3-point because it's easier are not only free to do so but encouraged. When they start to get to the point that they want to actually be considered competitively relevant they will find out that they need to go to 4-point as it's the now accepted standard. Changing your kick hold from the standard 4H they're used to to 6H isn't going to generate any drama for them if they're mentally competent enough to want to actually break into the competitive scene.
 

NewWestFan

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#8
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess we'll just have to see.

Once I had my initial misconception cleared up I'm on the "4-way should just be the standard and there should be no other options" train myself. The people who are going to lobby for 3-way are most likely the same people who are going to spam your speakers with HUT HUT HUT HUT as soon as they go into critical stun.
 

NewWestFan

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#10
This 3 Point Hold thing is a significantly better concept than that S Button !
On this I believe we can all agree. I get the purpose behind the auto combo for new players but it should be holdable by standard and advanced holds and I thought PB/Ls were a fine mix of risk/reward as they were in 5. Break Hold shouldn't even be a thing. Not sure about the auto side step attack but I guess we'll just have to see how things turn out.
 
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ryu_highabusa

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#12
and countless more... it was neat. It's good to have the option ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No, it's not. There's a thing called being "overchoiced".

The phenomenon of overchoice occurs when many equivalent choices are available.[3] Making a decision becomes overwhelming due to the many potential outcomes and risks that may result from making the wrong choice. Having too many approximately equally good options is mentally draining because each option must be weighed against alternatives to select the best one. The satisfaction of choices by number of options available can be described by an inverted "U" model.[4] In this model, having no choice results in very low satisfaction. Initially more choices lead to more satisfaction, but as the number of choices increases it then peaks and people tend to feel more pressure, confusion, and potentially dissatisfaction with their choice. Although larger choice sets can be initially appealing, smaller choice sets lead to increased satisfaction and reduced regret. Another component of overchoice is the perception of time. Extensive choice sets can seem even more difficult with a limited time constraint.[5]
This is what I hate about DOA5 and DOA5's online mode. Yes, they gave people so many options because they were trying to appease everyone. But it's overwhelming, particularly for newer players. They don't know what anything is. Decide on a standard ruleset and make it permanent, no options, and balance the game around that. I just want to play the game. Set the rules, Team Ninja, you're the dungeon master.

In the arcade, the options were hidden from the player and you could just jump into a game. I hate how many menus and options I have to jump through before I'm actually in a match. Remember in the arcade when you put in your money, hit the button, picked your character, and you were playing instantly?

Now it's menu > choices > menu > choices > menu > choices> menu > choices > menu > menu > choices > wait in lobby with 6 people while we spectate 2 (as if we only had one machine to share between the 8 of us)... I've spent infinitely more time in menus, lobbies, and option screens than actually playing the game... I kind of went off on a tangent.

Glade to have the option.
The problem with a 4 point hold, is that I found it very difficult to distinguish between a high and mid attack.
It looks like a mid but it is actually a high.
It looks like a high but it is actually a mid.
So responding to that for a hold feels like luck or memory (after you study your opponent character)

Then the problem for a 3 point hold is that the hold for high and mid are so easy that players don't want to throw a punch so easily.

I wish there were somewhere in between, or make a high and low look disgustingly different.
This is why I feel they should go back to 2-point ( :2::h: and :4::h: ) like in DOA1 but change it so counters use gauge. Counters in stun take even more gauge (how much exactly I'm not certain). Maybe even 1-point hold ( :4::h: ) if the gauge sacrifice is sufficient. But this eliminates the problem of both new and experienced players who cannot differentiate between HIGH and MID attacks for holds. High/Low is much simpler, plus the hold cannot be spammed since it now requires meter. This is the perfect solution in my opinion.

Now if I build up a full gauge, the new "super hold"is also easy to understand. (why isn't it "special hold" if I'm using the
special button?? or rename it the "super gauge")

Now they can change "special/super hold" to be an super elaborate animation with fancy graphical effects. Kind of like how the "super blow" animation does this. For example, move Hayabusa's Izuna counter to
"super hold" status and give it some of the "ki" effects from the trailer for extra flash.

Defensive and stronger options being tied to a bar, in order to prevent spamming, is a common theme among many games. So this is an easy concept for players coming from other games, not just fighting games, to understand. Much simpler than explaining difference between high hold, mid-punch hold, and mid-kick hold. Please show the DOA5 hold tutorial to a brand new player and see what happens. Every time I try to teach a new player to hold, the first time they manage to do the input it is always the wrong level and frustrates the player.

A 2-way or 1-way hold system that uses gauge is the way to go, I feel. Most players, even myself, do not want to memorize every character's string hit levels - this is complex and it changes every game and from patch-to-patch anyway. Some moves that hit mid in DOA2 now hit high in DOA5LR - but I have 18 years of muscle memory so I can't stop doing the wrong hold. It's a small frustrating balance change that didn't actually fix anything. Make holds simple to execute but shift the focus to be about timing and meter management and most players will easily understand.


Also, the way to make things easy to learn is to use familiar concepts. Use familiar terms. Standardization makes things easier for everyone to understand. The game doesn't need to be "dumbed down", things just need to be explained clearly in plain English. I'm sure things like "Break Gauge" and "Break Blow" and "Fatal Rush" etc all sound 'cool' to Japanese people but it's confusing on top of an already difficult genre. As a brand new player, would you think "Break Blows" and the
"Special Button" are related at all? Probably not. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell a "Break Blow" is... Is it just a "Super Move"? And it needs "super/special meter?" Then fucking call it that, please. Christ. That eliminates so much frustration.

Honestly.To this day I still don't really understand Power Blows, Crushes and... I can't even remember what the all the names of all the weird techniques from DOA5 are... much less have them figured out enough to use. Sometimes I go for that stun that shakes the screen but I cannot for the life of me remember what it is called. I can read frame data though. Because frame data is the same across all the fucking games. See how that works? I'm not even joking. I am so not joking. I hope to god they read this.

Like, I am all aboard the "gauge" train and think it could possibly be the best thing to ever happen to DOA, if it's balanced correctly by launch.

Take "Super Moves" from other fighting games, who cares if it's copying. It's not shameful to adopt popular standards. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. DOA started out as a VF clone, right? Just take all the best parts and put them together in a way that makes sense.


Probably because unlilke the S button, the 3 "Way" Hold actually changes how the game is played.
We need more than one string off of the
-button. Make them flashy but give players more strings. They can go based off of old DOA1 inputs for some starter ideas. You know how certain strings in DOA1 and VF use :h+p+k:? Those tend to be stronger strings and moves.
 
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Leifang2000

Well-Known Member
#13
Glade to have the option.
The problem with a 4 point hold, is that I found it very difficult to distinguish between a high and mid attack.
It looks like a mid but it is actually a high.
It looks like a high but it is actually a mid.
So responding to that for a hold feels like luck or memory (after you study your opponent character)

Then the problem for a 3 point hold is that the hold for high and mid are so easy that players don't want to throw a punch so easily.

I wish there were somewhere in between, or make a high and low look disgustingly different.
 

Matt Ponton

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#14
This 3 Point Hold thing is a significantly better concept than that S Button !
Probably because unlilke the S button, the 3 "Way" Hold actually changes how the game is played.

Personally 3 way or 4 way doesn't matter to me on its own, but my preference is dependent on the system it inhabits. For some examples, in DOA6 the 1 Way Break Hold doesn't offend or worry me because it's behind meter and it does little damage with slight advantage, similar to DOA1's 2 Way system. In DOA3, I'm fine with the 3 way system because the meta game isn't about the Attack hit level as the focus, when stunned you're thinking "Is he going to launch me? extend the stun? reset the stun?" which are answers that lead into other critical questions such as "what's my positioning? What can the he do to me with that character? Is he advantageous back to the wall or my back to the wall?". It's all relation to the action which the opponent wants to do, not the attack they want to do. Contrast that with say in DOA5 where hit level matters moreso due to the critical burst system, everything causing stun, the larger stun threshold, and you're basically trying to read the specific attack they're trying to do moreso than the action they want to do. I'm not saying one is better than the other, and I am just speaking from my own personal take on the issue, but what I am saying is that favoring the "# Way" system depends on the system it is affecting and the meta of that system.
 

Lulu

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#15
Probably because unlilke the S button, the 3 "Way" Hold actually changes how the game is played.

Personally 3 way or 4 way doesn't matter to me on its own, but my preference is dependent on the system it inhabits. For some examples, in DOA6 the 1 Way Break Hold doesn't offend or worry me because it's behind meter and it does little damage with slight advantage, similar to DOA1's 2 Way system. In DOA3, I'm fine with the 3 way system because the meta game isn't about the Attack hit level as the focus, when stunned you're thinking "Is he going to launch me? extend the stun? reset the stun?" which are answers that lead into other critical questions such as "what's my positioning? What can the he do to me with that character? Is he advantageous back to the wall or my back to the wall?". It's all relation to the action which the opponent wants to do, not the attack they want to do. Contrast that with say in DOA5 where hit level matters moreso due to the critical burst system, everything causing stun, the larger stun threshold, and you're basically trying to read the specific attack they're trying to do moreso than the action they want to do. I'm not saying one is better than the other, and I am just speaking from my own personal take on the issue, but what I am saying is that favoring the "# Way" system depends on the system it is affecting and the meta of that system.
I'm not a Big Fan of Meter because I can already picture a situation where Break Holds could be kind of annoying... Say... in the final round of a match and your down to your last chunk of Health.... the opponent catches you in a stun... there's pretty much no reason not to Break Hold in that situation.

Now ofcourse the Break Hold can still be baited and punished by your opponent but since it holds everything... one can simply try to use it on reaction to even the tiniest change in Animation...

I wonder what the figure will be for How practical it is to use a Break Hold on reaction... and if Eliot or Brad Wong will be the exception.

As for reducing the number of ways a player can hold.... I like it beause it retains the central concept of the Hold System and the scalability allows people to set it to whatever their preference is.... I can't even say which is better between 4, 3 or even 2 way holds.... its mostly subjective. I'm just glad people will get a choice. :)
 

NewWestFan

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#16
I'm not a Big Fan of Meter because I can already picture a situation where Break Holds could be kind of annoying... Say... in the final round of a match and your down to your last chunk of Health.... the opponent catches you in a stun... there's pretty much no reason not to Break Hold in that situation.

Now ofcourse the Break Hold can still be baited and punished by your opponent but since it holds everything... one can simply try to use it on reaction to even the tiniest change in Animation...

I wonder what the figure will be for How practical it is to use a Break Hold on reaction... and if Eliot or Brad Wong will be the exception.

As for reducing the number of ways a player can hold.... I like it beause it retains the central concept of the Hold System and the scalability allows people to set it to whatever their preference is.... I can't even say which is better between 4, 3 or even 2 way holds.... its mostly subjective. I'm just glad people will get a choice. :)
I see the side step attack being more annoying in your hypothetical situation to be totally honest. I don't know if it has iframes or what but from the footage we've seen so far I've not seen one snuffed yet. Maybe they just lucked out and were using super linear attacks at the time it was pressed but it seemed like a guaranteed thing from what I saw. Unless I'm overlooking some part of a video somewhere?

In the situation you just depicted there's no reason to try and read for a normal Hold either. Break Hold is just a 100% gaurantee vs a 1/4 (If you're guessing) that if a strike is coming you're going to inflict a small amount of damage and reset the neutral.
 
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Rikuto

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#18
I mean I don't mind if peop
Glade to have the option.
The problem with a 4 point hold, is that I found it very difficult to distinguish between a high and mid attack.
It looks like a mid but it is actually a high.
It looks like a high but it is actually a mid.
So responding to that for a hold feels like luck or memory (after you study your opponent character)

Then the problem for a 3 point hold is that the hold for high and mid are so easy that players don't want to throw a punch so easily.

I wish there were somewhere in between, or make a high and low look disgustingly different.

3 point wouldnt help you anyway. It combines mid punch and mid kick, not high and mids.
 
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Brute

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#19
At first, I thought lobby searching in DOA6 would be better than in DOA5 because I wouldn't have to worry about the Tag option.

Oh boy, was I fucking wrong. My expectations for this game are declining with each new piece of information that comes out. Hopefully they don't fuck Nioh 2 up this bad.
 
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