Senran Kagura Series

[Brute]

For you perhaps... I never needed to approach God of War and Bayonetta like its Dark Souls... why ? I honestly don't know... I'l look into that at some point.

You don't need to apparoach any games like they're Dark Souls except Dark Souls. But you do it anyway, and then complain things aren't working smoothly.

Well... yeah.... every developer's been trying to copy various aspects of that series. And can you blame'em ? The fornula is essentially: "Passing off rubbish mechanics as a form of difficulty."

Estival is ezaf. It never tries to be "difficult."

 

[Lulu]

You don't need to apparoach any games like they're Dark Souls except Dark Souls. But you do it anyway, and then complain things aren't working smoothly.

I approach every bad game like its Dark Souls... and what would have me do ? Suffer in Silence ? Besides I didn't come here to trash this game... I came here because I thought I was playing it wrong... only to find out I was already playing it "correctly".

Estival is ezaf. It never tries to be "difficult."

The first half of that statement applies to Dark Souls aswell. As for Estival Versus... its unclear what they were trying to do. I'm not getting a clear signal of what sort of experience is suppose to be coming out of the gameplay.... or maybe they don't really care that much.... more effort went into the Fanservice than it did into the combat mechanics.

 

[Jadeinchains]

...EV isn't a bad game but anyway, Okay Its been a while now since I played EV but the game was fairly easy especially on easy lol so I'm confused why your having to approach the game Dark Souls style? Also I've never played a souls game but It's gameplay is nothing like SK from what I've seen, SK's gameplay is similar to Musou games though so I suppose you could approach it similarly to those games? Also camera? That's just a 3rd person game thing in general really. Is this your first Senran Kagura game that you've played because EV was my first SK game I played, I'm just confused why you seem to be having such a hard time with it.

 

[Lulu]

...EV isn't a bad game but anyway, Okay Its been a while now since I played EV but the game was fairly easy especially on easy lol so I'm confused why your having to approach the game Dark Souls style? Also I've never played a souls game but It's gameplay is nothing like SK from what I've seen, SK's gameplay is similar to Musou games though so I suppose you could approach it similarly to those games? Also camera? That's just a 3rd person game thing in general really. Is this your first Senran Kagura game that you've played because EV was my first SK game I played, I'm just confused why you seem to be having such a hard time with it.

Its the Animations.... I'm surrounded by baddies and relative to how frequently they attack... my attacks come out slowly and I'm constantly getting interrupted..... on top of that the game won't let me guard during the any portion of the attacking animations... or even during the inexplicably long recovery the long dash animation... so even if I do see an attack coming I can't block.... I can only Parry.... its okay.... you can say I suck for not being able to do it.

So I tried dodging.... honestly I can't tell when I can or can't press a button because the game is inconsistent on where it will or won't let me cancel an attacking or staggering animation into a dash... sometimes it works... other times it doesn't and I don't know why.

Its near impossible to get any sort of momentum going when the animation are slow, easily susceptible to interruption by so much as an enemy farting in your General Direction and last but not least the inability to cancel animations into my defensive options... I don't count the burst because the few times I used it just got me killed faster... I tried using it on Groups... I tried using it on the girls from the other Academies.... its done nothing for me.


You wana know what a Dark Souls game is to me ?

Its a game where the tools you are given don't fit the problem's you're asked to solve.... this can happen in genre, any type of game from CCG's to RPGs.

In Dark Soul's case one example is how the mechanic's you're given are strictly designed for taking on one enemy at a time... regardless of type.... introducing another enemy just causes the whole thing to collapse.... whether its Ornstein & Smough or Two Rats.... the mechanics just don't fit.

This doesn't mean you won't win... it just means the burden has been placed on you to micromanage what you do have to work in your favour.... so you wait for both enemies to attack in such a way that you can punish one without getting interrupted or punished by the other.... you disengage the lock on mechanic and manipulate the camera and your movemenents so that you can keep both enemies in the same frame... or risk getting stabbed in the back... Souls fans call this a challenge... but where do you draw the line... Compensating for lag and shitty framerates is also a challenge if we're going by that logic.

You don't do the exact same things in EV but it feels the exact same way... no matter what I try I couldn't take on members of the rival Academy if I didn't have some Ninja scrolls because for whatever reason you get Staggered in fewer attacks than they do.... theres no logic or consistency to why some shit works or why it doesn't.... all I know is The Scrolls Techniques restore some of the consistency.... if I have less health than they them I can't win without them and if I do have more health then I just try to out last them... Always Trading attacks because they don't stagger easily... a few times I parried Miyabi & Ryoki (it was a complete accident, it never happened when I wanted) and even that didn't constistently give me an Opening to counter attact propetly.

BTW... this was during the first mission that lets you change the difficulty... I started it on hard and restarted it on Medium... just incase you were wondering.

 

[Brute]

I approach every bad game like its Dark Souls... and what would have me do ? Suffer in Silence ? Besides I didn't come here to trash this game... I came here because I thought I was playing it wrong... only to find out I was already playing it "correctly".

Well, that certainly wasn't the case with Nioh. You had no fucking idea what you were doing.

The first half of that statement applies to Dark Souls aswell. As for Estival Versus... its unclear what they were trying to do. I'm not getting a clear signal of what sort of experience is suppose to be coming out of the gameplay.... or maybe they don't really care that much.... more effort went into the Fanservice than it did into the combat mechanics.

They were trying to give you a platform to express the various character personalities, either inherit or of your own contribution. They typically opt for flashy more than functional. The gameplay itself definitely takes a backseat to the structure and atmosphere of the game. I wouldn't call the combat "bad" (I'll go into that later), but I also wouldn't call it "good."

Its the Animations.... I'm surrounded by baddies and relative to how frequently they attack... my attacks come out slowly and I'm constantly getting interrupted..... on top of that the game won't let me guard during the any portion of the attacking animations... or even during the inexplicably long recovery the long dash animation... so even if I do see an attack coming I can't block.... I can only Parry.... its okay.... you can say I suck for not being able to do it.

Air dashes are far more effective than ground dashes at creating space, though dash efficiency does increase as you level up, and as in most games, you have special attacks linked to the dodge move that often increase it's efficiency (for example, dodging and then attack with Ikaruga will cause her to use Vergil's rapid slash attack to strike any enemies that rest in the area she dodged past). Despite this, sprinting is by far the most effective method for creating space (hold down the dodge button).

So I tried dodging.... honestly I can't tell when I can or can't press a button because the game is inconsistent on where it will or won't let me cancel an attacking or staggering animation into a dash... sometimes it works... other times it doesn't and I don't know why.

Can't help you there. Works for me. Granted I'm not a huge fan of the dodging in this game, but it's consistent.

Its near impossible to get any sort of momentum going when the animation are slow, easily susceptible to interruption by so much as an enemy farting in your General Direction and last but not least the inability to cancel animations into my defensive options... I don't count the burst because the few times I used it just got me killed faster... I tried using it on Groups... I tried using it on the girls from the other Academies.... its done nothing for me.

This really depends on your character. Ikaruga, for example, attacks much faster than Kratos ever does in God of War. On the flipside, Hanabi is slow as hell (then again, Kratos had weapons that were also pretty slow).

You wana know what a Dark Souls game is to me ?

Its a game where the tools you are given don't fit the problem's you're asked to solve.... this can happen in genre, any type of game from CCG's to RPGs.

In Dark Soul's case one example is how the mechanic's you're given are strictly designed for taking on one enemy at a time... regardless of type.... introducing another enemy just causes the whole thing to collapse.... whether its Ornstein & Smough or Two Rats.... the mechanics just don't fit.

This doesn't mean you won't win... it just means the burden has been placed on you to micromanage what you do have to work in your favour.... so you wait for both enemies to attack in such a way that you can punish one without getting interrupted or punished by the other.... you disengage the lock on mechanic and manipulate the camera and your movemenents so that you can keep both enemies in the same frame... or risk getting stabbed in the back... Souls fans call this a challenge... but where do you draw the line... Compensating for lag and shitty framerates is also a challenge if we're going by that logic.

You have to micromanage what you do have to work in your favor to overcome any obstacle that doesn't complete itself. If you don't like attentively managing lots of things, that's fine, but it's hardly the respective game's fault. And in Estival's case, there's really not that much to micromanage.

You don't do the exact same things in EV but it feels the exact same way... no matter what I try I couldn't take on members of the rival Academy if I didn't have some Ninja scrolls because for whatever reason you get Staggered in fewer attacks than they do.... theres no logic or consistency to why some shit works or why it doesn't.... all I know is The Scrolls Techniques restore some of the consistency.... if I have less health than they them I can't win without them and if I do have more health then I just try to out last them... Always Trading attacks because they don't stagger easily... a few times I parried Miyabi & Ryoki (it was a complete accident, it never happened when I wanted) and even that didn't constistently give me an Opening to counter attact propetly.

And this is why the game isn't "bad." Unlike some other games, Estival actually gives you everything you need to clear its challenges with relative ease. The "problem" here is that you don't want to clear it like they want you to. For example, in the fight against Ryoki, I wouldn't recommend dodging or parrying. I would recommend spamming breach arts until you get enough scrolls to dunk on your opponent. Would it be more satisfying to have a back-and-forth, DMC/Ninja Gaiden boss fight with tight dodges and all that? Yeah. But Estival wasn't trying to do that. Dark Souls, amusingly, was. It's just very bad at it.

BTW... this was during the first mission that lets you change the difficulty... I started it on hard and restarted it on Medium... just incase you were wondering.

Estival was actually my first Senran game as well, and I started on Hard just like you. I noticed that enemy mobs were unreasonably spongy and mobs were a chore to clear out. It become clear why when I realized there were character levels, and concluded that Hard mode is probably there for using a character that is already decently leveled. Upon recognizing that, I dialed it back to normal, and things went far smoother. You could argue "it never told me that" but again, it's pretty easy for a new player to figure out, and unlike your favorite punching bag Dark Souls there is no penalty for trial and error (they actually give you a bit of xp even when you lose, IIRC, so it actually rewards trial and error).

 

[Lulu]

Well, that certainly wasn't the case with Nioh. You had no fucking idea what you were doing.

Duh... Game is greedy with information, remember....

Air dashes are far more effective than ground dashes at creating space, though dash efficiency does increase as you level up, and as in most games, you have special attacks linked to the dodge move that often increase it's efficiency (for example, dodging and then attack with Ikaruga will cause her to use Vergil's rapid slash attack to strike any enemies that rest in the area she dodged past). Despite this, sprinting is by far the most effective method for creating space (hold down the dodge button).

I noticed.... but like I said... for me it didn't always come out.

This really depends on your character. Ikaruga, for example, attacks much faster than Kratos ever does in God of War. On the flipside, Hanabi is slow as hell (then again, Kratos had weapons that were also pretty slow).

I noticed Yomi & Yozkura (I think it was) have Charge moves, but their hit tolerance is not higher than anyone elses. Atleast DS1 gave you poise.... well... technically it isn't given to you... you have to go find it in Dark Root.

You have to micromanage what you do have to work in your favor to overcome any obstacle that doesn't complete itself. If you don't like attentively managing lots of things, that's fine, but it's hardly the respective game's fault. And in Estival's case, there's really not that much to micromanage.

LoL.... you think EV has you managing lots of things ?

I don't think you understood what I meant... The Game's problem isn't that you have manage a bunch of things its that you have to compensate for its short comings by micromanaging unecessary things. Like the Camera...

Why does it never occur to developers to just zoom out alil ? Its not that difficult to implement.... not even as a Patch.... okay I don't really know how patches work but seriously... they could have easily caught this during development.

And this is why the game isn't "bad." Unlike some other games, Estival actually gives you everything you need to clear its challenges with relative ease.

it gave them to you perhaps... but not to me.

The "problem" here is that you don't want to clear it like they want you to.

I didn't even know what type of game it is when I got it... I had no preconceptions of clearing it any other way than the tutorial tried to show me.... crank up the difficulty once and all of sudden the things it taught me were varying degrees of useless.... just like Dark Souls.... and President Evil 5 on the Professional Difficulty.... and Bioshock Infinite on 99 Mode... Doom on Nightmare.

If you wana see how well a game's mechanics hold up just increase the difficulty and see what still usefull...

I mean even DmC retained much of its depth on Hell & Hell Difficulty....

For example, in the fight against Ryoki, I wouldn't recommend dodging or parrying. I would recommend spamming breach arts until you get enough scrolls to dunk on your opponent. Would it be more satisfying to have a back-and-forth, DMC/Ninja Gaiden boss fight with tight dodges and all that? Yeah. But Estival wasn't trying to do that. Dark Souls, amusingly, was. It's just very bad at it.

The mob will try to dwindle your resources before Ryoki even shows up... just like Dark Souls.... its a battle of Attrician regardless of what the game was trying to be.

It become clear why when I realized there were character levels, and concluded that Hard mode is probably there for using a character that is already decently leveled. Upon recognizing that, I dialed it back to normal, and things went far smoother. You could argue "it never told me that" but again, it's pretty easy for a new player to figure out, and unlike your favorite punching bag Dark Souls there is no penalty for trial and error (they actually give you a bit of xp even when you lose, IIRC, so it actually rewards trial and error).

LoL... since you're so good at figuring things out... why on earth does it let adjust the difficulty up to hard if hard is essentially Unplayable ?

See how you stupid that is ? Medium Difficulty was no Prize Pig either... the whole thing just feels unbalanced.... which would be fine if it was an RPG (is it ? I honestly don't know) its common for RPGs to give you all this "Freedom" and then gate away with Levels and Resources.... don't get me wrong... I'm not saying its better, its just as bad when The Witcher or Final Fantasy does it but atleast in those games you expect it... hell some people would complain if it were any other way.

 

[Brute]

Duh... Game is greedy with information, remember....

I remember explaining to you at length how it doesn't obfuscate information unnecessarily and that you're simply too lazy to learn.

LoL.... you think EV has you managing lots of things ?

No, I don't. In fact, I said the exact opposite. If what you meant to ask is whether I believe that you believe that to be true, I don't believe that you have a clear understanding of the games you play, so you look for excuses to justify why you don't like them. Thus, your perception is hardly compelling when its consistently challenging empirical evidence and logic.

I don't think you understood what I meant... The Game's problem isn't that you have manage a bunch of things its that you have to compensate for its short comings by micromanaging unecessary things. Like the Camera...

Why does it never occur to developers to just zoom out alil ? Its not that difficult to implement.... not even as a Patch.... okay I don't really know how patches work but seriously... they could have easily caught this during development.

Well, it's a third-person camera. Your inability to come to terms with how those work is going to alienate you from 90% of all action games.

Estival's camera is very easy to manage. You're just unable to do simple things that other people mastered ages ago.

Zooming the camera out more is not only unnecessary, but also wouldn't even solve your alleged problem by showing you all enemies at all times due to the way that the stages are set-up. Again, Devil May Cry (which you allegedly don't experience this problem) has enemies attacking from off-screen constantly as well, but you cherry-pick things to support your preconceived notions. Zooming it out more would also de-emphasize character personality, which as I mentioned earlier is a key element to these games.

it gave them to you perhaps... but not to me.

This is probably the scrubbiest thing I've ever read in my life. We played the same game and were given the same tools. Your shortcomings are entirely on you.

I didn't even know what type of game it is when I got it... I had no preconceptions of clearing it any other way than the tutorial tried to show me.... crank up the difficulty once and all of sudden the things it taught me were varying degrees of useless.... just like Dark Souls.... and President Evil 5 on the Professional Difficulty.... and Bioshock Infinite on 99 Mode... Doom on Nightmare.

If things don't immediately go your way and aren't handed to you on silver platter, you instantly jump to blaming the game. It's not a bias you develop before you play, it's a bias you develop before you learn to play. And it's just as toxic to your experience.

If you wana see how well a game's mechanics hold up just increase the difficulty and see what still usefull...

Lots of things are useful. You just don't make use of them because you're bad.

I mean even DmC retained much of its depth on Hell & Hell Difficulty....

But in the case of DMC and its clones the gameplay is really simple... Attack Dodge Attack Dodge... wait for opening Attack Dodge... rinse and repeat. Its got all the nuance of Lego Star Wars.

Again, cherry-picking with confirmation bias.

The mob will try to dwindle your resources before Ryoki even shows up... just like Dark Souls.... its a battle of Attrician regardless of what the game was trying to be.

The mob doesn't require any scrolls. Yes, they try to make you use scrolls, just as all enemies try to deplete your health. Overcoming those obstacles is the point of playing games in the first place.

LoL... since you're so good at figuring things out... why on earth does it let adjust the difficulty up to hard if hard is essentially Unplayable ?

Because you can re-play levels with any character immediately after you beat them. So if you liked a stage and want to re-play it with a leveled up character because you like playing that character, you have the option to do it on a difficulty that somewhat matches your character's level.
"But you can't do that in the very first level, so it's a trap!" - DMC doesn't let you buy any skills before the start of the first mission, but they still let you enter the shop. They've showing you what structures the game has so that you're mindful of them moving forward. This is transparency that you allegedly like.

 

[Lulu]

I remember explaining to you at length how it doesn't obfuscate information unnecessarily and that you're simply too lazy to learn.

I can't learn what the game doesn't teach.... well.... I mean I can through trial and error but thats prone to error. LoL... it would be awfully convenient for you if I was simply lazy but I hate to break it to you... I wasn't... I tried.... I applied what they taught me and died anyway...

No, I don't. In fact, I said the exact opposite. If what you meant to ask is whether I believe that you believe that to be true, I don't believe that you have a clear understanding of the games you play, so you look for excuses to justify why you don't like them. Thus, your perception is hardly compelling when its consistently challenging empirical evidence and logic.

Doesn't matter whether I like'em or not... They're still problematic... has liking the mechanics given anyone some sort of hidden advantage that makes the game more balanced ? I wouldn't think so. Hate it or love you get ganked and either way. Which is why you have to "Cheese" them.

Estival's camera is very easy to manage. You're just unable to do simple things that other people mastered ages ago.

Oh I'm sorry... I forgot to mention I only have two thumbs... unlike you a normal human being can't use the right stick and the face buttons simultaneously. If that means I suck then GOOD !!! #SCRUB4LYF. You should get together with the DMC4 Crowd... you'l have great time making fun of us normies for not being able to use a controller with more than four finger fingers at a time.

Zooming the camera out more is not only unnecessary, but also wouldn't even solve your alleged problem by showing you all enemies at all times due to the way that the stages are set-up. Again, Devil May Cry (which you allegedly don't experience this problem) has enemies attacking from off-screen constantly as well, but you cherry-pick things to support your preconceived notions. Zooming it out more would also de-emphasize character personality, which as I mentioned earlier is a key element to these games.

So you noticed... good. Now I don't have to explain to its level design has got problems too...

As for the DMC series.... I don't really remember I always sucked at the first four games.... DmC however did allow Flying Enemies to attack you offscreen if they're... uhm... I guess we'l call it a "Drop Marker"....so it would let Flying Enemies attack you if their Drop Marker was still onscreen.... some enemies would also attack you offscreen but this usually happens if the enemy was actually still onscreen when the attack was initiated, this wasn't always the case.... in some cases if the camera moves off an enemy theres a chance its attack will be cancelled... since it was inconsistent it just makes you look stupid if you were aware enough to keep track of that attack and did a well timed "Blind Evasion" only to evade nothing but air. But I aint complainin.... its significantly better than a game thats deliberately placing enemies in such a way that getting blind sided is inevitable.... Souls game design at its finest.

This is probably the scrubbiest thing I've ever read in my life. We played the same game and were given the same tools. Your shortcomings are entirely on you.

LoL... I don't even know what tools you're talking about... I'm assuming its not the same ones I described so if you got some sort of Pre-Order Fighting Chance Starter Pack that made the game easier for you then great.... I was stuck with what I described.

If things don't immediately go your way and aren't handed to you on silver platter, you instantly jump to blaming the game. It's not a bias you develop before you play, it's a bias you develop before you learn to play. And it's just as toxic to your experience.

I didn't come here immediately and I didn't come here with the intention of blaming the game.... I played that entire first mission roughly 2.1 times.... once on easy... once on medium and a failed attempt on hard.... I then came here assuming I was playing it wrong only to find out the advice you gave me was something I already figured out and was already applying it... THEN I started Bitching and Blaming the game....

Yes I'm a scrub... unlike other gamers I don't act is if I got it all figure it out and I don't expect to get something new right the first time... and for whatever reason that seems to bother you. Nothing I can do about that.

Lots of things are useful. You just don't make use of them because you're bad.

LoL... if your definition of useful consists of a single situation something normally useless finally works then yes... I will concede to that logic... if not then no... they're moderately useless.

But in the case of DMC and its clones the gameplay is really simple... Attack Dodge Attack Dodge... wait for opening Attack Dodge... rinse and repeat. Its got all the nuance of Lego Star Wars.

Again, cherry-picking with confirmation bias.

Yes and its Beautiful...

Besides theres a fundamental difference between a game where players aren't tapping into the games depth and a game where players have no depth to tap into.

This was one of the problems with Batman Arkham Games.... particularly Arkham City... people said the game was too simple and repetitive... and yeah it was... because they played it that way... but it didn't have to be.... they played the game as if they were rushing to get to the end, doing the bare minimum and never trying anything new unless the game forced them to by introducing a new type of enemy that can't be countered or taken down from behind.... and if you approach The Arkham Games like that they are definitely going to suck...

The same is true for Bayenotta and to some extent DmC, but those games grade your perfornance and then tell you: "No... you're the one who sucks... try harder, punk !!!" So even though you can skate by them just as easily as you could in Batman, they game refuses to accept responsibility for whatever problem you may have with its depth because it is there and you didn't use it.

Contrast that with the Lego games and Souls Games that don't have that depth to begin with.... you can only use whats there and if you want to more out of the nechanics well then too bad... thats all they got.

Trying to force depth seems to be what most gamers respond to.... instead of having extra mechanics that players may or may not use some games have mechanics in which you are forced to use to get by.... and players respond better to that, atleast the self proclaimed hard core players do. I don't really agree with this method... Forcing players to use the extra mechanics just makes the game feel convoluted.

The mob doesn't require any scrolls. Yes, they try to make you use scrolls, just as all enemies try to deplete your health. Overcoming those obstacles is the point of playing games in the first place.

The mob Stuff every other method other than Scrolls.... they may not be necessary to get past them but they are pretty fucking unfair if you opt no to use the scrolls.... particularly the black ones that skate around you in a circle.... those are the one's I'm talking about specifically when I say the shut down much all of your options just by poking at you whenever you're not guarding. Worse yet they pair them with those slightly taller Baddies with the Katanas and are constantly blocking.... I need to charge the 2ndary attack to break their guard but the smaller ones and their frequent attacks prevent that from happening... I'd like to say focusing on the skating Enemies leaves my vulnerable to the larger ones but honestly... they don't even get a chance to be a threat because the skating enemies just keep shutting you down all by themselves. So yeah I pop a scroll just so can get my Aerial Rave loop going.... it works. And that leaves me at a disadvantage when the Academy chicks show up....

Kinda like Dark Souls and its bottle necks. They're just trying to burn through as much of your estus as possible.

Because you can re-play levels with any character immediately after you beat them

This doesn't explain why they let you change it BEFORE you beat them.

So if you liked a stage and want to re-play it with a leveled up character because you like playing that character, you have the option to do it on a difficulty that somewhat matches your character's level.

And it never occurred to anybody that this wouldn't necessary if they never used levels in the first ?

You don't have to answer that, its a rhetorical question...ofcourse it never occured them.... level up system always cause these problems and amount of pointing it out has done anything to change that. LoL... its a Game design Blind Spot that we are cursed with suffering forever.

DMC doesn't let you buy any skills before the start of the first mission

DMC4 doesn't... but DmC does.... I think.... when you first start the game there is no mission select screen like in 3 & 4... it just starts and from there you can't buy skills until you stumble upon the statue..... long after slaying enough baddies to buy some skills... I think thats how it works. I could be wrong, I remember the game letting you setting up weapon skins and costumes somewhere in the beginning but I don't remember if the you could enter the shop from there.... because there was a preorder bonus that gave you three Skill points before you even start so I don't know.... I recorded it... I'l check it later.

They've showing you what structures the game has so that you're mindful of them moving forward. This is transparency that you allegedly like.

Actually I'm confused.... whats your point ? Just like EV, DmC lets you chose your difficult in the beginning but unlike EV some of the difficulties are locked away because what would be the point of starting DmC on Dante Must Die Difficult before you've had chance to buy Stinger or Ricoshot ?

Ninja Theory made the decision to lock those away... Tamsoft on the other hand did not...

But thats not what has me confused...what has me confused is why we'rs talking about the Skill Shop ? I need clarification.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Usually whenever I look at Lulu's posts these past few months, I tend to believe he just writes stuff out of sheer boredom so I just ignore pass it (no offense my dude, but sometimes I do). Particularly NiOh and SFV because FSD is a SFV site after all (*cough lolol*).

Good day though. You still cool peeps.

 

[Brute]

I can't learn what the game doesn't teach.... well.... I mean I can through trial and error but thats prone to error. LoL... it would be awfully convenient for you if I was simply lazy

Actually, it's incredibly inconvenient. If you weren't lazy, then you would just learn the game and quit blaming everything but yourself, sparing me the hassle of giving protracted lectures on common sense.

Doesn't matter whether I like'em or not... They're still problematic... has liking the mechanics given anyone some sort of hidden advantage that makes the game more balanced ? I wouldn't think so. Hate it or love you get ganked and either way. Which is why you have to "Cheese" them.

"Cheesing" something typically refers to using an unintended tactic to get past an obstacle that is meant to be approached a different way. The obstacles in Estival aren't meant to be approached another way. You just don't like the way they want you to do it, so you call it cheese. And it matters because you're saying the mechanics don't work when they work fine simply because you don't like them.

Oh I'm sorry... I forgot to mention I only have two thumbs... unlike you a normal human being can't use the right stick and the face buttons simultaneously. If that means I suck then GOOD !!! #SCRUB4LYF. You should get together with the DMC4 Crowd... you'l have great time making fun of us normies for not being able to use a controller with more than four finger fingers at a time.

So then how did you play God of War which uses the right thumbstick to dodge, which you have to be constantly doing between attacking with the face buttons? Your thumb can, actually move to different places, and utilizing that is what allows you to take advantage of games that require many different button inputs (DMC and GoW use this). "There are plenty of openings to adjust the camera in Estival. Demanding that you be able to do it every millisecond is ludicrous.

As for the DMC series.... I don't really remember I always sucked at the first four games....

No one would believe otherwise.

DmC however did allow Flying Enemies to attack you offscreen if they're... uhm... I guess we'l call it a "Drop Marker"....so it would let Flying Enemies attack you if their Drop Marker was still onscreen.... some enemies would also attack you offscreen but this usually happens if the enemy was actually still onscreen when the attack was initiated, this wasn't always the case.... in some cases if the camera moves off an enemy theres a chance its attack will be cancelled... since it was inconsistent it just makes you look stupid if you were aware enough to keep track of that attack and did a well timed "Blind Evasion" only to evade nothing but air. But I aint complainin.... its significantly better than a game thats deliberately placing enemies in such a way that getting blind sided is inevitable.... Souls game design at its finest.

Amusingly, DmC handled its camera in a very similar fashion to Estival, and its stages were also pretty spread out.

LoL... I don't even know what tools you're talking about... I'm assuming its not the same ones I described so if you got some sort of Pre-Order Fighting Chance Starter Pack that made the game easier for you then great.... I was stuck with what I described.

If I gave you a gun and told you to shoot a target, you'd blow your own head off and blame the gun. Such is the case here.

Yes I'm a scrub... unlike other gamers I don't act is if I got it all figure it out and I don't expect to get something new right the first time... and for whatever reason that seems to bother you. Nothing I can do about that.

If you're blaming the game, that is inherently acting like you "got it all figure it out." And yes, stupidity bothers me.

LoL... if your definition of useful consists of a single situation something normally useless finally works then yes... I will concede to that logic... if not then no... they're moderately useless.

Breach arts are not "normally useless," nor are scroll arts, aerial raves, or anything else described. If you feel that they are, even when everyone else can use them effectively in nearly all situations the game presents, then you are, again, acting like you "got it all figure it out."

Yes and its Beautiful...

Besides theres a fundamental difference between a game where players aren't tapping into the games depth and a game where players have no depth to tap into.

This was one of the problems with Batman Arkham Games.... particularly Arkham City... people said the game was too simple and repetitive... and yeah it was... because they played it that way... but it didn't have to be.... they played the game as if they were rushing to get to the end, doing the bare minimum and never trying anything new unless the game forced them to by introducing a new type of enemy that can't be countered or taken down from behind.... and if you approach The Arkham Games like that they are definitely going to suck...

The same is true for Bayenotta and to some extent DmC, but those games grade your perfornance and then tell you: "No... you're the one who sucks... try harder, punk !!!" So even though you can skate by them just as easily as you could in Batman, they game refuses to accept responsibility for whatever problem you may have with its depth because it is there and you didn't use it.

Contrast that with the Lego games and Souls Games that don't have that depth to begin with.... you can only use whats there and if you want to more out of the nechanics well then too bad... thats all they got.

Trying to force depth seems to be what most gamers respond to.... instead of having extra mechanics that players may or may not use some games have mechanics in which you are forced to use to get by.... and players respond better to that, atleast the self proclaimed hard core players do. I don't really agree with this method... Forcing players to use the extra mechanics just makes the game feel convoluted.

Arbitrary platitudes relying on vague sentiments in place of factual or empirical evidence.

The mob Stuff every other method other than Scrolls.... they may not be necessary to get past them but they are pretty fucking unfair if you opt no to use the scrolls....

I'm a scrub

This doesn't explain why they let you change it BEFORE you beat them.

DMC doesn't let you buy any skills before the start of the first mission, but they still let you enter the shop. They've showing you what structures the game has so that you're mindful of them moving forward. This is transparency that you allegedly like.

And it never occurred to anybody that this wouldn't necessary if they never used levels in the first ?

Well it wouldn't be necessary to even kill the enemies if they all killed themselves.
Yes, it occurred to them and they opted not to go with that for a reason that I already described to you. They feel that independent character leveling emphasizes character identity, which is a core element in the series.

You don't have to answer that, its a rhetorical question...ofcourse it never occured them....

unlike other gamers I don't act is if I got it all figure it out

DMC4 doesn't... but DmC does.... I think.... when you first start the game there is no mission select screen like in 3 & 4... it just starts and from there you can't buy skills until you stumble upon the statue..... long after slaying enough baddies to buy some skills... I think thats how it works. I could be wrong, I remember the game letting you setting up weapon skins and costumes somewhere in the beginning but I don't remember if the you could enter the shop from there.... because there was a preorder bonus that gave you three Skill points before you even start so I don't know.... I recorded it... I'l check it later.

That stuff was all DLC, though it was probably included in the Definitive Edition if you played that version.

Actually I'm confused.... whats your point ? Just like EV, DmC lets you chose your difficult in the beginning but unlike EV some of the difficulties are locked away because what would be the point of starting DmC on Dante Must Die Difficult before you've had chance to buy Stinger or Ricoshot ?

Ninja Theory made the decision to lock those away... Tamsoft on the other hand did not...

But thats not what has me confused...what has me confused is why we'rs talking about the Skill Shop ? I need clarification.

The point is that you have access to features so you can be mindful of how they will influence progression as you move through the game. It's rather evident.

 

[Lulu]

Actually, it's incredibly inconvenient. If you weren't lazy, then you would just learn the game and quit blaming everything but yourself, sparing me the hassle of giving protracted lectures on common sense.

Yeah right.... as if you don't enjoy lecturing people.

"Cheesing" something typically refers to using an unintended tactic to get past an obstacle that is meant to be approached a different way. The obstacles in Estival aren't meant to be approached another way. You just don't like the way they want you to do it, so you call it cheese. And it matters because you're saying the mechanics don't work when they work fine simply because you don't like them.

"Cheesing" something is means getting through an obstacle through impractical methods. You're right... I don't like it... but my point still stands.

So then how did you play God of War which uses the right thumbstick to dodge, which you have to be constantly doing between attacking with the face buttons?

You dodge with the Thumbstick in God Of War ? I didn't know that. I don't remember what the dodge button was in that game but I definitely didn't use the Stick.

Your thumb can, actually move to different places, and utilizing that is what allows you to take advantage of games that require many different button inputs (DMC and GoW use this). "There are plenty of openings to adjust the camera in Estival. Demanding that you be able to do it every millisecond is ludicrous.

Depends on the enemy configuration... its not as bad as it is in Dark Souls but its not that good either. The opportunities I got to move the camera around were when I got knocked back or during one of those long recovery animations.... I've been hit many times while adjusting camera.

No one would believe otherwise.

LoL... I wouldn't be so sure.

Amusingly, DmC handled its camera in a very similar fashion to Estival, and its stages were also pretty spread out.

Actually DmC has a understated soft lock on... it would focus on enemies you were actively attacking.... which could cause it to misbehave when you decided to swith enemies... and while it did collide with walls just as badly it didn't happen often.... I don't know if enemies are programmed to avoid walls or if Dante is just mobile enough to naturally avoid them...

I like how the Arkham Games pull it off.... if you approach a wall... rathee than leaving the camera to collide with it... it would pivot all the way to the other side.... this didn't always work but it was good on the devs to be aware of that and try to fix it.... I suppose they could have just left it and claimed the game was Hardcore and not going to hold your hand.

If I gave you a gun and told you to shoot a target, you'd blow your own head off and blame the gun. Such is the case here.

LoL... I know the gun you would give me is some impractical weird shape that only you would no how to operate... in which case... yes... I'd blow my Head off. Actually things like this have been known to happen.... some dude accident blew his thumb off while trying to fire a revolver... his thumb was near the chamber and when the gun went off... most of the explosion propelled the bullet through the barrel, but part of it was vented out the side of the chamber.

Thats what EV is.

If you're blaming the game, that is inherently acting like you "got it all figure it out." And yes, stupidity bothers me.

LoL... and you hand it that... remember ? I told you... I came in here assuming I wasn't doing it right. Turns out I was... unless you would to give me more tips on EV then yeah... the game's got issues.

Breach arts are not "normally useless," nor are scroll arts, aerial raves, or anything else described. If you feel that they are, even when everyone else can use them effectively in nearly all situations the game presents, then you are, again, acting like you "got it all figure it out."

You're right... Aerial Raves are actually pretty useful, the problem is actually getting the opportunity to use them... because everything else is somewhat useless. If breach arts are that AOE that topples enemies over for a second... then yeah... that was definitely useless... then enemies just get back up and continue ganking you as usual. Not to mention its got a particularly short radius... I remember using it a couple times on those Black Hooded enemies and only knocking over half of them.

Arbitrary platitudes relying on vague sentiments in place of factual or empirical evidence.

Perhaps... but if I said DmC is deeper than EV then only moron would disagree. Also how does Empirical Evidence differ from just regular Evidence ? This is an honest question. I have no idea what Empirical Means.

Well it wouldn't be necessary to even kill the enemies if they all killed themselves.
Yes, it occurred to them and they opted not to go with that for a reason that I already described to you. They feel that independent character leveling emphasizes character identity, which is a core element in the series.

LoL... they can do that by attaching a progress bar that goes up exclusively for cosmetic purposes.... the problem is they gave it an actual function so they needed to make it seem usefull (it isn't... they never are). And thats how they and every other RPG winds up being unbalanced (with the exception of Super Giant Games) .

Obviously if came right out and told players that progression system is purely cosmetic then that would just piss players off... so if they do decide to make it cosmetic they should keep it secret.... you know.... for the sake of protecting their player's fragile egos. I heard Oblivion did this... or something like this.

That stuff was all DLC, though it was probably included in the Definitive Edition if you played that version.

I didn't... man I really want to play that version.

The point is that you have access to features so you can be mindful of how they will influence progression as you move through the game. It's rather evident.

I'm sorry I still don't understand... whats the point in having access to useless feature ?

If you want me to admit that it was pointless for DMC to let you walts into the skill shop before you've had chance to get any currency then yeah it was.... my point is it was harmless. This isn't the case with Estival Versus letting you adjust the difficulty...

Now I'm not saying the game shouldn't let you adjust the difficult because it might be too difficult... I'm saying the game shouldn't let you adjust the difficult of the difficulty is dependent on things other than the player's skill.... such as levels.

 

[Jadeinchains]

...

... Lol. Sorry but I've been in this same kind of cycle of trying to explain a topic or something with you before lulu and It didn't really get through and just...r.i.p brute for trying but I'll not comment on this...debate? more than this post lol cause it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

PS: Good though If besides that first time playing in hard now that your playing on easy or normal your able to play the game fine.

Anyway though -

Hopefully this means they'll actually bein the new game.

Love the drummer girl's new look, but i actually kinda prefer the older outfits for the twins.

Pretty sure they will be, At least from everything so far that's been hinted at, They were kind of seen in the teaser trailer for SK7 and the SK twitter as made some very heavy hints towards them and the other idol group being in but Arc Angels seem to have been hinted at more than any other group. So right now It seems like If any new girls are in SK7 Arc Angels have a great chance.

I actually didn't remember the twins other outfits so I had to look them up. And yeah I actually did like their old outfits ( same for the other members of arc angels ) but I like all their new outfits as well.

 

[Lulu]

Lol. Sorry but I've been in this same kind of cycle of trying to explain a topic or something with you before lulu and It didn't really get through

Its gotta make sense if you want it to work. For instance... try to explain to me why Alpha's has a but no . You're not gonna convince me on that one because it doesn't make sense.

 

[Jadeinchains]

Wait...did anyone see this? Just yesterday Nep got announced for PBS!

I'm honestly surprised to see that they are still supporting PBS and releasing dlc for it but it's awesome to hear and see! She looks really cool.

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

Wait...did anyone see this? Just yesterday Nep got announced for PBS!

I'm honestly surprised to see that they are still supporting PBS and releasing dlc for it but it's awesome to hear and see! She looks really cool.

"I'm gonna NEP you up!"

I'm surprised Neptune is coming to SK... Even more so that they didn't bundle her as Purple Heart or with Noire, Vert and Blanc

 

[Brute]

Wait...did anyone see this? Just yesterday Nep got announced for PBS!

I'm honestly surprised to see that they are still supporting PBS and releasing dlc for it but it's awesome to hear and see! She looks really cool.

Who is this?

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

Who is this?

Neptune, the main character of the Hyperdimension Neptunia games.(Turn based JRPGs with all female cast)

 

[Brute]

Neptune, the main character of the Hyperdimension Neptunia games.(Turn based JRPGs with all female cast)

No wonder I'm unfamiliar.

 

[P2p1mbs]

Its gotta make sense if you want it to work. For instance... try to explain to me why Alpha's has a but no . You're not gonna convince me on that one because it doesn't make sense.

...What are you even still on about? You honestly lost me at your explanation of how approaching a game is different from playing it . Whatever, i hope you're at least able to enjoy the game...

I'm honestly surprised to see that they are still supporting PBS and releasing dlc for it but it's awesome to hear and see

It's probably not that hard for them to create new player characters since they just have to change the default character model's hairstyle and eye color and make some mew animation for melee attacks then record some lines. The most difficult thing for them is likely getting rights for guest characters.

Who is this?

I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[Lulu]

...What are you even still on about? You honestly lost me at your explanation of how approaching a game is different from playing it . Whatever, i hope you're at least able to enjoy the game...

You don't know the difference ?