So Im gunna go out on a limb here

[Normal]

Again this is not the case. There was not so much homogenizing in DoA4. Everyone had OH but grapplers had better OH multiple command throws, or like Leon/Tina with tackle from laying position.

There is more homogenization in DoA5. Search for DOA5LR Death Combo videos and you will understand. Even grapplers like Leon their best damage potential is through strikes because of how DoA5 stun works. All combo videos look same regardless of character: punches, kicks, CB, PL, PB, Sidestep, no use of guaranteed laying throws for grapplers, only moderate < 25% damage of total combo use of air throw, but even Hayabusa can do this too and will use it in high damage combos better than punch and kick combo end.

Grapplerbusa and Dead or Strikes 5.

DoA4 was not best fighting game but it is most balanced DoA to offer simple understanding of global subsystem in each character and have usage of all strikes and holds and OH and throws instead of primary strikes like DoA5.

 

[KasumiLover]

Both me and another user have tried to rationalize that offensive holds are a part of the game & you are dismissive towards that; Side-steps wouldn't even be so bad to begin with if everyone had a decent OH. Heck not even the new mechanics for DoA6 would really be all that great if every character had a decent OH; they would be cool to use sure- but boom Offensive Hold if you just want to mash- It's funny the description for a break blow is literally "This could be absolutely wonderful for dealing with people that love spamming the same moves over and over."
& I'm over here like uhh an offensive hold?? You want to fatal rush me & waste your meter? lol Offensive Hold right to you for thinking you can just mash.

My statement about Akira make no sense? I think we can all agree that Akira is the true boss character of Dead or Alive (not Alpha). Dead or Alive wouldn't have even came around without his influence. It would be reasonable that he is one of the best at least.

Yeah he's one of the best but not THE best. XD and no I don't agree, he's not the true boss character. He's a solid character but he's far from perfect, he's not on boss character status, any character above him however on the tier list maybe tho

 

[KasumiLover]

Well rest assured, if you think you can dance with Akira . . .you better not make any mistakes

Yeah, just like any other character xD

 

[Normal]

Lets not fool ourselves.

DoA5 was not real game. It only had sex appeal. 30+ sexy costumes for each women.

 

[Normal]

Punch and kick titty game.

 

[ryu_highabusa]

I think that mix-up potential was something that kept the game fresh.

What's the fucking point of the wall then if it doesn't do anything? Why even have walls? Might at well play exclusively on dojo.

DOA4 did make you guess a lot, it had its charm in being a constant battle of outsmarting the opponent.

What's smart about being as random as possible? How is that smart? Please explain.

Like when I play JL and do a dragon gunner. I've caught so many people with that thing while they are attacking. I just don't find it necessary for strikers to have it. I don't necessarily think its wrong or broken, just overall silly.

I don't get you. Do you want the characters to have individual tools or do you want everyone to play the same after all? Make up your mind.

Everyone had OH but grapplers had better OH multiple command throws, or like Leon/Tina with tackle from laying position.

Except that the grappler needs to do every part of the multi-part OH in order to get the same damage as a single-part OH from a striker - and your opponent can escape from every single part. How is that "better"?

 

[Normal]

What's the fucking point of the wall then if it doesn't do anything? Why even have walls? Might at well play exclusively on dojo.


What's smart about being as random as possible? How is that smart? Please explain.


I don't get you. Do you want the characters to have individual tools or do you want everyone to play the same after all? Make up your mind.

Wall impact is extra damage and opportunity for even more damage as opponent remains standing instead of knocked down to floor.
Wall has plenty use. Did you not play DoA4?

And what is not smart about intentional randomness?
Do you believe it is more smart to press than to really know character moveset and use unexpected attacks?

 

[ryu_highabusa]

Wall impact is extra damage

10 points. I might as well jab you. Same shit. Big deal.

opportunity for even more damage as opponent remains standing instead of knocked down to floor.

What opportunity? They have invincibility during get-up kicks. Hitting someone into the wall in 4 gives you absolutely no advantages and resets the situation. Did you not play DOA4?

 

[Normal]

10 points. I might as well jab you. Same shit. Big deal.


What opportunity? They have invincibility during get-up kicks. Hitting someone into the wall in 4 gives you absolutely no advantages and resets the situation. Did you not play DOA4?

Extra damage is extra damage. Intelligent fighter takes it where it can be found.

And I refer to wall bounce, not wall splat to laying down. Waking kick is also not invincible.

 

[Raansu]

Again this is not the case. There was not so much homogenizing in DoA4. Everyone had OH but grapplers had better OH multiple command throws, or like Leon/Tina with tackle from laying position.

If removing the unique tool sets and making everyone play the same mind games isn't homogenizing, then I don't know what is. DoA is a text book example of what a fighter looks like when you make everything the same. Grapplers having combo throws on their OH doesn't change anything.

There is more homogenization in DoA5. Search for DOA5LR Death Combo videos and you will understand. Even grapplers like Leon their best damage potential is through strikes because of how DoA5 stun works. All combo videos look same regardless of character: punches, kicks, CB, PL, PB, Sidestep, no use of guaranteed laying throws for grapplers, only moderate < 25% damage of total combo use of air throw, but even Hayabusa can do this too and will use it in high damage combos better than punch and kick combo end.

Those death combos that are easy to get out of and will never see in an actual fight? You realize those types of videos are just to show off right? And combo videos look the same regardless of character in EVERY DoA game. There's only so much flash you can do with each characters move set. That in no way correlates to a game being homogenized, and DoA5 brought back actual mechanics from previous doa games that were removed from 4. It did the exact opposite of homogenizing.

Both me and another user have tried to rationalize that offensive holds are a part of the game & you are dismissive towards that

I agree, they are very much part of the game. Doesn't mean every one should have one. Parries are part of the game, should everyone have one of those? Actually, don't answer that, I already hate that Lei Fang stole Hitomi's parry and got guaranteed options out of it lol.

Side-steps wouldn't even be so bad to begin with if everyone had a decent OH.

What? In what way would that change anything? Standard throws beat a side step every time. Why would you need an OH for that? The only exception are Christi and Mari Rose unique side steps. Both are obnoxious, but an entire cast shouldn't have OH's just to counter two characters unique abilities. That would be stupid, just like how it was stupid Brad Wong ate an OH every time he lay down on the ground in DoA4.

Heck not even the new mechanics for DoA6 would really be all that great if every character had a decent OH; they would be cool to use sure- but boom Offensive Hold if you just want to mash- It's funny the description for a break blow is literally "This could be absolutely wonderful for dealing with people that love spamming the same moves over and over."
& I'm over here like uhh an offensive hold?? You want to fatal rush me & waste your meter? lol Offensive Hold right to you for thinking you can just mash.

Why do you need an OH for this? You have defensive holds. If someone is doing the same thing over and over again then counter them.

My statement about Akira make no sense? I think we can all agree that Akira is the true boss character of Dead or Alive (not Alpha). Dead or Alive wouldn't have even came around without his influence. It would be reasonable that he is one of the best at least.

Edit: And he doesn't even need an offensive hold

Your statement was silly because you're advocating a characters strength based on something superficial. You may be a better player than me, you may not be. Like I said before, your logic is literally saying that if I beat you with Hitomi then she must be top tier right? No, again the logic is silly.

I don't get you. Do you want the characters to have individual tools or do you want everyone to play the same after all? Make up your mind.

Hmm? When did I make the impression that I wanted everyone the same? My comment about JL losing his OH is very much me stating that I think certain tools should be unique to certain character playstyles. I tact on my other comment because people were acting like I was saying faster characters were broken or something in DoA4 because they also had OH's, which just isn't true. I think it hurt certain characters (like Brad Wong because OH basically beat out anything he did on the ground), but I never thought the entire cast having it was broken. I just simply feel something like an OH is something that strikers don't need and should be unique to grapplers.

Wall impact is extra damage and opportunity for even more damage as opponent remains standing instead of knocked down to floor.
Wall has plenty use. Did you not play DoA4?

Did you play anyone who knew how to stagger escape escape? If you did you would never bother going for a wall bounce because people who stagger escaped would hit the wall then immediately fall to the floor. You'll get that extra 10-15 damage from the wall splat after you finish your juggle which you should have always opted for.

And what is not smart about intentional randomness?
Do you believe it is more smart to press than to really know character moveset and use unexpected attacks?

What is smart about it? There's no such thing as intentional randomness. Both parties are simply trying to make reads and essentially guessing while getting no rewards for the constant risks. Every game has RPS, but the level in doa4 was obnoxious.[/QUOTE]

 

[Normal]

If removing the unique tool sets and making everyone play the same mind games isn't homogenizing, then I don't know what is. DoA is a text book example of what a fighter looks like when you make everything the same. Grapplers having combo throws on their OH doesn't change anything.



Those death combos that are easy to get out of and will never see in an actual fight? You realize those types of videos are just to show off right? And combo videos look the same regardless of character in EVERY DoA game. There's only so much flash you can do with each characters move set. That in no way correlates to a game being homogenized, and DoA5 brought back actual mechanics from previous doa games that were removed from 4. It did the exact opposite of homogenizing.




I agree, they are very much part of the game. Doesn't mean every one should have one. Parries are part of the game, should everyone have one of those? Actually, don't answer that, I already hate that Lei Fang stole Hitomi's parry and got guaranteed options out of it lol.



What? In what way would that change anything? Standard throws beat a side step every time. Why would you need an OH for that? The only exception are Christi and Mari Rose unique side steps. Both are obnoxious, but an entire cast shouldn't have OH's just to counter two characters unique abilities. That would be stupid, just like how it was stupid Brad Wong ate an OH every time he lay down on the ground in DoA4.



Why do you need an OH for this? You have defensive holds. If someone is doing the same thing over and over again then counter them.



Your statement was silly because you're advocating a characters strength based on something superficial. You may be a better player than me, you may not be. Like I said before, your logic is literally saying that if I beat you with Hitomi then she must be top tier right? No, again the logic is silly.



Did you play anyone who knew how to stagger escape escape? If you did you would never bother going for a wall bounce because people who stagger escaped would hit the wall then immediately fall to the floor. You'll get that extra 10-15 damage from the wall splat after you finish your juggle which you should have always opted for.



What is smart about it? There's no such thing as intentional randomness. Both parties are simply trying to make reads and essentially guessing while getting no rewards for the constant risks. Every game has RPS, but the level in doa4 was obnoxious.

[/QUOTE]
Combo videos are much different for grapplers in earlier DoA. It is not same for every DoA, it is only DoA5 that is like this.

And DoA is not about "unique toolsets" outside of character specific stance, unique holds, or unique throws. It never has been and it still isn't.

 

[Raansu]

Combo videos are much different for grapplers in earlier DoA. It is not same for every DoA, it is only DoA5 that is like this.

K.

Again, most combo videos are not even practical. The majority of juggles grapplers use now are the same ones they used in other DoA's with slight variations.

And DoA is not about "unique toolsets" outside of character specific stance, unique holds, or unique throws. It never has been and it still isn't.

Everything you listed is a unique tool. Also, when OH (catch throws) first became a thing, they very much were limited to certain characters. The idea of "everyone gets everything" didn't happen till DoA4, and it was the worst DoA for a reason.

 

[Normal]

K.

Again, most combo videos are not even practical. The majority of juggles grapplers use now are the same ones they used in other DoA's with slight variations.



Everything you listed is a unique tool. Also, when OH (catch throws) first became a thing, they very much were limited to certain characters. The idea of "everyone gets everything" didn't happen till DoA4, and it was the worst DoA for a reason.

Excuse me. It is different for every other DoA except DoA3. This is 8 hit combo and knockout. Even street fighter 2 knockout needs more than 8. DoA3 was strange game. Such a combo could not work in DoA4 by juggle limit. To use obvious broken combo from obvious broken game is not helpful.

Everyone does not have everything in DoA4. Hayabusa has no air throw. Kasumi cannot throw laying opponent. Zack cannot parry. I do not understand you. OH is not good enough to be grappler only option. It would be weakness. This has been said many times.

 

[Raansu]

Excuse me. It is different for every other DoA except DoA3. This is 8 hit combo and knockout. Even street fighter 2 knockout needs more than 8. DoA3 was strange game. Such a combo could not work in DoA4 by juggle limit.

DoA3 wasn't a strange game. It wasn't all that different from 2 in most accounts. It just improved on it with having actual fighting game things like guard breaks and frame advantage and the wall game. There was the wonky ss attacks, but they were pretty buggy.

Juggle limit? You mean that 30 hit cap? lol DoA4 had stupid combo videos to.

My point is, mentioning death combos is silly. You can do them in any of the DoA games. None of them are practical (with the exception of Bass. His relauncher was obviously a little ridiculous, but he only had that in 3.1 and it was only in rare situations that it happened. It wasn't exactly easy to pull them off against a decent opponent)

Edit:

Just for fun, a doa1 death combo. Warning, the volume is stupid loud.

 

[Normal]

DoA3 wasn't a strange game. It wasn't all that different from 2 in most accounts. It just improved on it with having actual fighting game things like guard breaks and frame advantage and the wall game. There was the wonky ss attacks, but they were pretty buggy.

Juggle limit? You mean that 30 hit cap? lol DoA4 had stupid combo videos to.

My point is, mentioning death combos is silly. You can do them in any of the DoA games. None of them are practical (with the exception of Bass. His relauncher was obviously a little ridiculous, but he only had that in 3.1 and it was only in rare situations that it happened. It wasn't exactly easy to pull them off against a decent opponent)

Edit:

Just for fun, a doa1 death combo. Warning, the volume is stupid loud.

Juggle limit is in single combo after launch. Any attack that lift opponent higher into the air only work couple time, else limit is reached and combo ends by instant flip to floor.

I only mentioned death combos to elaborate next statement which was

Even grapplers like Leon their best damage potential is through strikes because of how DoA5 stun works. All combo videos look same regardless of character: punches, kicks, CB, PL, PB, Sidestep, no use of guaranteed laying throws for grapplers, only moderate < 25% damage of total combo use of air throw, but even Hayabusa can do this too and will use it in high damage combos better than punch and kick combo end.

We can even look at DoA5 Bass combo.
https://youtu.be/JIp0ORgG4mI
Bass use throws the most, but it is still 80+% damage from strikes. Primary strikes at all times.

I see more homogenization in DoA5. Not DoA4.

 

[Raansu]

I don't think you know what homogenization means and that Bass video is no different from death combo videos from any other doa game. Its all circumstantial setups using danger zones. You will pretty much never see that happen in an actual match.

 

[Raansu]

Uh....if you're referring to Hitomi's attack follow up after she parries, that's not a sabaki. A sabaki is an attack that has a parry built into it. Its one singular move. Hitomi's parry just happens to have a follow up of a high kick or a mid punch.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with your post overall though, or how its supposed to counter what I said. What technical reason do you believe everyone should have one for? So far you haven't provided such an argument.

 

[Normal]

Raansu, OH are just an alternate form of throw.

OH in only some character is like Hold in only some character. It is like launcher in only some character. DoA is not 2D anime game where every character is 0-dimensional with one trait and exist under entirely seperate rules to become unbalanced as every street fighter ever.

 

[Raansu]

Raansu, OH are just an alternate form of throw.

OH in only some character is like Hold in only some character. It is like launcher in only some character. DoA is not 2D anime game where every character is 0-dimensional with one trait and exist under entirely seperate rules to become unbalanced as every street fighter ever.

What do 2D fighters have to do with anything? That's not an argument. Parries are just an alternate form of a hold, doesn't mean everyone should have a parry. OH/Catch throws were never a universal tool until DoA4. In what way does anyone other than grapplers need a throw with defensive hold properties? You say DoA5 is too similar among the cast, particularly the grapplers (which is absolutely ridiculous), yet you're arguing against the very thing that would set apart grapplers from everyone else while saying everyone should have OH's.

In what scenario does a fast character like Chrisitie or Kasumi ever need an OH? They are striker characters, why would they need a tool like that? Why would Hitomi ever need it? Do you really want to deal with a frame trap like being -7 from being parried or -10 from 6h+p and having to deal with an OH from Hitomi? Because that's exactly what I did in 4. If I parried you and I saw a pattern that you kept mashing out of it, I'm going for the OH and I'm going to get it every time. I abused the hell out of that. What about Jann Lee and his dragon gunner? Do you really think that move needs to be an OH? Do you really think someone with an 11 frame mid punch needs not one, but 2 OH's?

You're looking at OH as some arbitrary perspective. Not once have you or Trick given any technical/balance reason why everyone should have it. The only arguments you've had is "its part of the game, everyone should have it." Which is not an argument. Should everyone have parries? Should everyone have BT stuns? Should everyone have sabaki's? Should everyone have ground throws? Should everyone have a stance dance?

The answer to all of that is no btw. It would be a terrible game.

 

[Normal]

What do 2D fighters have to do with anything? That's not an argument. Parries are just an alternate form of a hold, doesn't mean everyone should have a parry. OH/Catch throws were never a universal tool until DoA4. In what way does anyone other than grapplers need a throw with defensive hold properties? You say DoA5 is too similar among the cast, particularly the grapplers (which is absolutely ridiculous), yet you're arguing against the very thing that would set apart grapplers from everyone else while saying everyone should have OH's.

In what scenario does a fast character like Chrisitie or Kasumi ever need an OH? They are striker characters, why would they need a tool like that? Why would Hitomi ever need it? Do you really want to deal with a frame trap like being -7 from being parried or -10 from 6h+p and having to deal with an OH from Hitomi? Because that's exactly what I did in 4. If I parried you and I saw a pattern that you kept mashing out of it, I'm going for the OH and I'm going to get it every time. I abused the hell out of that. What about Jann Lee and his dragon gunner? Do you really think that move needs to be an OH? Do you really think someone with an 11 frame mid punch needs not one, but 2 OH's?

You're looking at OH as some arbitrary perspective. Not once have you or Trick given any technical/balance reason why everyone should have it. The only arguments you've had is "its part of the game, everyone should have it." Which is not an argument. Should everyone have parries? Should everyone have BT stuns? Should everyone have sabaki's? Should everyone have ground throws? Should everyone have a stance dance?

The answer to all of that is no btw. It would be a terrible game.

I have given argument many times that throw always beats OH. What DoA4 did in sensibility was make all slow startup throws as OH. This becomes universal understanding. If character lunges or reaches, it is OH, and if whiff it is long recovery to punish. I am unsure why you think OH should not be universal tool. You say because all OH is less... unique characters? More homogenization?
But this claim is not sensible. OH are valuable tool and all character better for having, but it is weakness too as throw always beats. It is hard to reaction to throw because speed, but easy to reaction to OH because slow. You ignore specialty OH exist in DoA4 beyond universal options, like Leon/Tina tackle or Bayman
You deny these as unique features for grappler character inside game where all character have OH, this is your false belief though.

You portray argument incorrectly and unintelligently.

Everyone will have sabaki counter in DoA6 too, not that universal sidestep wasn't already sabaki in DoA5.

Let us change to topic of Sidestep. Do you believe all character should have sidestep blow? This was also character specific until DoA5, like OH until DoA4.