So Im gunna go out on a limb here

[MasterHavik]

Hmm. Hayabusa had strong Izuna counters but he is not the only character that benefit from stage. Bayman's advanced holds were very good on stages with explosive floors and walls like disco and alpha boss room. I think his middle punch hold would slam into the floor and then throw, and it could impact wall if close to wall, so explosion damage in one hold with floor and wall. I forget stage names. We are ultimately talking about one stage with Hayabusa. Sure it was strong, but you know it is strong and you know Hayabusa is looking for chances to throw and hold punches, so you give him kicks and avoid unecessary luck holds, and this is a tactic when on top of the bridge.

I do not see Hayabusa as mid in DoA5. He was given air throw as if he were made to be better than grappler.

I have read Itagaki would say "a grappler should not beat a ninja", so it is irony that DoA5 is really only game where Hayabusa is much better than a grappler.

Line by line.

But Bayman was really bad and slow. You could bait his stuff out and throw him for it. Also his advantage on the club stage and the alpha stage was nothing to what Ryu could do. Also my approach on the bridge stage is to get a hold or get Ryu off it so I don't lose my life bar. He is really good in 4 dude.

Well he is actually slower in 4 and has a lot of holds in his game in 5. Also he isn't better than the grapplers as Tina, Rachel, and Lisa got better tools than him.

 

[Normal]

Line by line.

But Bayman was really bad and slow. You could bait his stuff out and throw him for it. Also his advantage on the club stage and the alpha stage was nothing to what Ryu could do. Also my approach on the bridge stage is to get a hold or get Ryu off it so I don't lose my life bar. He is really good in 4 dude.

Well he is actually slower in 4 and has a lot of holds in his game in 5. Also he isn't better than the grapplers as Tina, Rachel, and Lisa got better tools than him.

Best change for Hayabusa in DoA5 was to make Izuna holds as advanced punch holds instead of advanced damage opportunity on easy input automatic differential high/low holds to automatically trigger against high/low punch. That is most fair change.

But now we have striker character with advanced holds, advanced throws, and air throw...

 

[MasterHavik]

Best change for Hayabusa in DoA5 was to make Izuna holds as advanced punch holds instead of advanced damage opportunity on easy input automatic differential high/low holds to automatically trigger against high/low punch. That is most fair change.

But now we have striker character with advanced holds and air throw...

Who wasn't as dominated as you thought as Genfu an d Christie exist. Hell, even Zack gave him problems.

 

[Normal]

I do not think DoA5 is strong solid game and did not play competitively in DoA5. I am unsure how Genfu is better, rather is it not Genfu is just easier to play?
Christie I understand is good because of how DoA5 stun is designed, and her sidestep attacks are great. She and genfu were both more fair in DoA4.

I think ultimate problem is DoA5 was not balanced well. At top, VF Character are too fast against DoA rules and should have been transformed to fit in DoA, instead TeamNinja only translated from VF5 to DoA5. Below top, DoA characters do not work well with VF rules as universal sidestep or extra stun. Many System changes were made to DoA5, but DoA characters were not designed around changes and still remain as DoA. This creates obvious problem with whole roster balance, but not obvious to TeamNinja as only attempt at balance was made with Last Round, but still unbalanced. The change of system mechanic requires entire change of moveset and speeds to be well meshed, but this is too much effort. I worry DoA6 will suffer strange imbalance problem too.

 

[MasterHavik]

Grandpa fu can crush you and he had force techs. His holds were insane too in 4.

 

[Normal]

Grandpa fu can crush you and he had force techs. His holds were insane too in 4.

Primary force tech was (?). Low punch? This was very stretched reaching animation with much recovery.

All character had good force tech. Force tech meta was very interesting in DoA4. It was always pressure. Always something happening. Two monsters fighting at 100%. I did play random in later years of DoA4 after learning all characters, and all character had own tricks and sneaky options. Eliot stretch low kick was similar to Genfu stretch low punch, but also it was string. Force tech was universal power.

 

[Matt Ponton]

OH/Catch throws were never a universal tool until DoA4

They were universal to the cast in all versions of DOA1, but made unique in DOA2 and DOA3.

and her sidestep attacks are great.

You keep making a mistake in terminology. You keep calling Free Step attacks as "sidestep attacks" in DOA5. DOA5's side step attacks are different from how the free step attacks function.

 

[Normal]

They were universal to the cast in all versions of DOA1, but made unique in DOA2 and DOA3.



You keep making a mistake in terminology. You keep calling Free Step attacks as "sidestep attacks" in DOA5. DOA5's side step attacks are different from how the free step attacks function.

I did not mistake.

 

[MasterHavik]

Primary force tech was (?). Low punch? This was very stretched reaching animation with much recovery.

All character had good force tech. Force tech meta was very interesting in DoA4. It was always pressure. Always something happening. Two monsters fighting at 100%. I did play random in later years of DoA4 after learning all characters, and all character had own tricks and sneaky options. Eliot stretch low kick was similar to Genfu stretch low punch, but also it was string. Force tech was universal power.

Only three characters had good force techs: Genfu, Helena, and Ryu. Come on man Zack didn't have a strong force tech game for example.

 

[NewWestFan]

Only three characters had good force techs: Genfu, Helena, and Ryu. Come on man Zack didn't have a strong force tech game for example.

Yeah we don't take naps on Helena. She makes you get up early every day.

 

[MasterHavik]

Yeah we don't take naps on Helena. She makes you get up early every day.

She was annoying to deal with.

 

[Raansu]

They were universal to the cast in all versions of DOA1, but made unique in DOA2 and DOA3.

My mistake.

You portray argument incorrectly and unintelligently.

not that universal sidestep wasn't already sabaki in DoA5.

If you're going to insult me, at least get the terminology correct. In no way are side steps sabaki's. A sabaki is an attack with parry properties. It is one singular move/input.

 

[Raansu]

Every character had good force-techs in 4; the fluidity of the tech-system allowed every character to perform safe-force techs. Zack had a very strong force-tech game. Much better character in 4 than 5 (It's been theorized that Zack might be considered a soft-counter to Helena due to the fast pressurous nature of his kicks-Rig gave Helena a tough time for this reason too). Much of the neutral exchanges didn't really change from 4 to 5. I found it to be the same game with outrageous damage values applied to every character.
Doa4 normal health 60 seconds is essentially the same as DoA5 normal health 60 seconds- except there is no SS,PB,PL, CB- & the environment gives opportunities for extra damage without requiring special mechanics to access those environmental factors

Every character could force tech in 4 just like they all can in 5, that really didn't change at all. The point he was making is characters like Helena had guaranteed ones in a game where that overall just wasn't a thing. Its what made her loop setup so strong. Guaranteed setups that created frame advantage in a game where, again, that just wasn't a thing in doa4. Its why she stood out so much.

 

[MasterHavik]

Every character had good force-techs in 4; the fluidity of the tech-system allowed every character to perform safe-force techs. Zack had a very strong force-tech game. Much better character in 4 than 5 (It's been theorized that Zack might be considered a soft-counter to Helena due to the fast pressurous nature of his kicks-Rig gave Helena a tough time for this reason too). Much of the neutral exchanges didn't really change from 4 to 5. I found it to be the same game with outrageous damage values applied to every character.
Doa4 normal health 60 seconds is essentially the same as DoA5 normal health 60 seconds- except there is no SS,PB,PL, CB- & the environment gives opportunities for extra damage without requiring special mechanics to access those environmental factors

You haven't seen half the stuff Zack can do in 5 to say he is better than 4. Also nah he didn't because it gets negated by being able to easily crush and not having the strongest turtle game. Zack is so much better in 5 it insane. By the way, Zack got his lunch push in by the ninjas and Genfu so point this out is moot as he was in the same hell as other characters.

 

[Raansu]

I don't understand how it's considered that there is a vast difference between DoA4 & DoA5-almost all of the same tech & combos exist. DoA5 took everything broken in DoA4 & made it worse. In my eyes the game that requires more patches to be balanced is technically the more broken game. DoA5LR in particular had 7 balance patches since 2015. Not including the balance patches evident in both DoA5 Vanilla & DoA5 Ultimate. DoA4 had but one balance patch in it's 7 year span & an ultimate version of the game wasn't even released. Just because DoA5 was the latest does not make it the greatest

That's because DoA4 was abandoned right after release and Itagaki was in a legal battle with Tecmo. DoA4 also came at a time when the concept of patches wasn't really the norm yet for consoles.

The same tech does't exist in 4 and 5 however. The properties of alot of stuns and moves changed significantly.

 

[Raansu]

Frequent patches make the game less desirable to practice for casual & competitive play.

Not really.

 

[NewWestFan]

Frequent patches make the game less desirable to practice for casual & competitive play.

Nope. I would rather Devs take input from the competitive scene on what is and isn't working and adjust things to be more fair for everyone instead of obstinately declaring the game perfect after just one or two patches. It never is or will be. True top tier players are always pushing and digging deeper into characters and mechanics so naturally tech is going to get discovered or move mechanics found that need to be balanced to keep as many characters viable as possible. To say that any fighting game never requires patching post release is insanity.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Frequent patches make the game less desirable to practice for casual & competitive play.

This. Every time I picked up DOA5 the things I learned last time I played no longer worked. So frustrating. I stopped bothering trying to learn any new techniques because anything good would get removed in the next patch. I play a very basic style when I go online now. And guess what? All that new stuff is gone in 6! So I was right to not to bother.