Fantailler
Well-Known Member
Hitomi's
-8ppk
-8ppp
-8pp2k
Seems pretty legit to me.
-8ppk
-8ppp
-8pp2k
Seems pretty legit to me.
So, Now That Leifang and Hitomi Have Been Teased...
- Thread starter LeifangHitomiFan1985
- Start date
Princess Kasumi
Well-Known Member
Fantailler speaks the truth. Hitomi is a mix-up character. She can change the follow-ups of each of her strings. She is far away from being a low & bottom tier character.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Princess Kasumi said:
I never said she needed any buffs on her low sweep. In fact I never even mentioned a single buff in my initial post in regards to her lows, especially if stagger escape is gone. With that gone her sweeps will be a consistent +5 (unless they change it) I was simply pointing that she is not what you think she is. Fuzzy guard destroys any mix up you think she has because all of her strings end in the exact same way.
Princess Kasumi said:
lol what? Hitomi is super unsafe.
Princess Kasumi said:
No shit!? That's why I said she excels at zoning and whiff punishment. That is how you're supposed to play her.
As for 236k though. That's not that good of a whiff punisher. Sure its -5, but its also a high kick. Its easy to a void and if it whiffs its a free throw. It might as well be unsafe. 26kh???? You mean 3h+k? It has almost the same reach as 236k and its a downward mid that will crush a low attack. Its the significantly better option, even if they did nerf it to -7.
-10 on block with a sit down stun at fastest stagger that only gives +15 which means only 6k and 6p are usable follow ups. 6p will knockdown, 6k will launch at threshold, but the setup just isn't worth the risk of that obvious string for such a low payout in damage.
-5 on block the only decent finisher in those strings when used in stun as it bounces, but its super obvious and will get held most of the time.
-17 on block easy to fuzzy guard and using it in stun causes a trip leaving you to deal with a wake up kick. No thanks.
You can try playing the mix up game with her, but that's not what she's good at. Finishing most of her strings is just asking to get fuzzy guarded and ending up being thrown.
She's mid tier. Middle of the road average. She's far from being as good as you think she is.
Princess Kasumi
Well-Known Member
ryu_highabusa
Well-Known Member
Um, what was the "Hitomi" BS? That was just a pretty average DOA match. The Hitomi player knows how to delay strings and free-cancel? Like, that's the BS? That's just DOA being DOA. I wish they would improve the mechanics. Anyway, looking forward to news in ten days from now. More just to speculate about any stages we'll see. I'm a little concerned about just how bare the game will be on content at launch - is that why they have so many recolors?
I am just now realizing how confusing numpad notation must be to PC players.
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Fantailler
Well-Known Member
Honestly Raansu you make her look trash tier character.I don't know what else to say nothing seems good enough for you.
She doesn't look that bad to me.
-Fast walkspeed helping against WuK
-crazy forward dash
-good spacing 46p 66k2k
-Great range on her neutral throw
-9H that covers both high punch and middle punch leading to 50/50
-6T for 50/50 and loop/reset
-has access to many lows/sitdown/launcher Within her strings.
-GBs
-expert Holds(not that great i admit but 46H is good for environmental damage)
-3kpk and variants for guaranteed 46P
-8ppk/p/2k for sitdown/launcher/frame advantage covering three different holds.
-Many moves sending your opponent flying good for one hit raw damage and wall bounce.
Her framedata is not the best but her strings are 4 to 5 hits often covering 3 heights.If there's a followup, even at-9/-13 i consider a move "safe" forcing your opponent to respect it especially in DOA where any stun could cost you a lot.
Some of her strings are obvious so what ? Like Tina or Lei Fang or Jann Lee it's easy to bait a HCT.It's exactly why and how i use them.
She's a Jack of all Trade and Master of None for sure,but in the hand of a good, patient and knowledgeable player with enough experience she shines imho.
She's simple and efficient but you can't get away with BS with her.And yeah there's better and easier choices at high level.
If she really brothers you at high level pick an other one,it's easier to do it in DOA more than any other game.
To me what she needs the most at the moment is a little more safety like Lei Fang allowing her to abare/9h more often,more sabakis and a fast middle punch launcher to mix it up with 9k, and maybe more guard break with pushblock for spacing, on 46p for example.On the sitdown stun axe kick too maybe since it's not the best one in the game and reactable,more for spacing than frame advantage.
Rikuto mentionned a stance,but if it's like Jann Lee which i consider meh it would be useless and not suiting her gameplan imho.
It's not only a matter of frame even though it's really important.
She doesn't look that bad to me.
-Fast walkspeed helping against WuK
-crazy forward dash
-good spacing 46p 66k2k
-Great range on her neutral throw
-9H that covers both high punch and middle punch leading to 50/50
-6T for 50/50 and loop/reset
-has access to many lows/sitdown/launcher Within her strings.
-GBs
-expert Holds(not that great i admit but 46H is good for environmental damage)
-3kpk and variants for guaranteed 46P
-8ppk/p/2k for sitdown/launcher/frame advantage covering three different holds.
-Many moves sending your opponent flying good for one hit raw damage and wall bounce.
Her framedata is not the best but her strings are 4 to 5 hits often covering 3 heights.If there's a followup, even at-9/-13 i consider a move "safe" forcing your opponent to respect it especially in DOA where any stun could cost you a lot.
Some of her strings are obvious so what ? Like Tina or Lei Fang or Jann Lee it's easy to bait a HCT.It's exactly why and how i use them.
She's a Jack of all Trade and Master of None for sure,but in the hand of a good, patient and knowledgeable player with enough experience she shines imho.
She's simple and efficient but you can't get away with BS with her.And yeah there's better and easier choices at high level.
If she really brothers you at high level pick an other one,it's easier to do it in DOA more than any other game.
To me what she needs the most at the moment is a little more safety like Lei Fang allowing her to abare/9h more often,more sabakis and a fast middle punch launcher to mix it up with 9k, and maybe more guard break with pushblock for spacing, on 46p for example.On the sitdown stun axe kick too maybe since it's not the best one in the game and reactable,more for spacing than frame advantage.
Rikuto mentionned a stance,but if it's like Jann Lee which i consider meh it would be useless and not suiting her gameplan imho.
It's not only a matter of frame even though it's really important.
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Princess Kasumi
Well-Known Member
Raansu tries his hardest to make her look like a trash tier character. She has safety, GREAT range, strings with many hits, a lot of low pokes and her throw 6T.
All this together means, she is not in need of buff, as she got the stuff to win a battle in high level play.
All this together means, she is not in need of buff, as she got the stuff to win a battle in high level play.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Hitomi's BS.
What BS am I supposed to see here other than a mediocre Hitomi player spamming 6pk against an equally worse player in a pretty below average match? I mean just from this short video I can tell you don't really know how to play her.
Fantailler said:
That's because there's two people in here that don't really play at a high level thinking a mid tier character is super good and misreading what I'm saying. I don't think she's trash tier and nothing in my posts suggests she's trash tier. What I am saying is she's NOT what you all are making her out to be. She's not some low poking crazy good character. Her lows are slow, unsafe, and give little advantage and can be staggered to be a disadvantage. Ya'll are making it out to be this amazing mind game trap when someone who is half decent at fuzzy guarding can stop all of it easily. That's not how you're supposed to play her. You're supposed to play her at mid range and going for whiff punishment because her general neutral game is mediocre and she doesn't have good crushes or even good NH stuns. She HAS to counter hit to open people up.
Fantailler said:
KBD is a thing, so that's not really a plus. The entire roster can space wake ups well.
Fantailler said:
Again, KBD and crouch dashing kind of make that a moot point.
Fantailler said:
Ya I'm not denying that. Again my core argument has always been that's she's very strong at zoning and whiff punishment due to many of her moves having very long reach.
Fantailler said:
Ya, that's great and all, but even at +7 is still a 50/50, which is not great. Meanwhile, Leifang's version gets a guaranteed stun follow up.
Fantailler said:
Again, not ideal. +10 frames is great and all when people mash out, but it should be +15 on hi-counter throw like it was in DoA4 giving her an unblockable follow up.
Fantailler said:
-All of her lows are terrible. They knockdown in stun and only do a small stagger on NH that doesn't even given frame advantage thanks to stagger escape.
Her sit down stuns are equally terrible and give no real advantage. She gets only 6p and 6k guaranteed off of it. If I'm going to go for max threshold I might as well do a stun that will give a real payout for the risk over the high risk of a sit down stun that gives no real payout.
She does have a variety of launchers. Too bad only 33p is able to give max juggle potential even at max threshold thanks to pp6pk ending in a high kick now whereas in older DoA's it ended as a mid kick. And yes I know her best max juggle is 4kk pp4ppp but that wont connect on anything but 33p launcher and obviously the mid kick hold.
Fantailler said:
Ya you do that charged GB. I will thank you for the free hold damage.
Fantailler said:
It used to be a standard hold, but whatever, still fantastic.
Fantailler said:
Meh. String can't be used even in the lightest stun. Just knocks them down. Most people are not going to get hit by that in neutral.
Fantailler said:
Sit down is worthless. 8ppp is ok. 8pp2k is the only sweep she has that keeps frame advantage after a stagger escape at +7 instead of +13. Fuzzy guard covers all of that.
Fantailler said:
Again, I've always stated that's her strong point with zoning.
Fantailler said:
Ok stop....respect what now? -9 is -9. No one is going to respect that. Either you finish the string and get thrown or free cancel and enjoy the counter hit or play her correctly and start zoning.
Fantailler said:
She's not a jack of all trades, she's a master of zoning and she's dangerous with whiff punishment and pushing you into a wall. She just simply needs some mechanics added to her tools to help her in the close range neutral game. As I said in my initial post, simple tools that she had in the past (which btw still left her at mid tier, she just had more options) and some other simple changes like making 6f+k cause a back turn. Its a side spinning kick, makes complete since to have it cause a BT. Just more options in general to open up the stun game, something she can't do well right now.
Also, I used to be a top 3 Hitomi player back in the day, so I got the experience and knowledge down. I know this character inside and out and most veterans here will attest to that.
Fantailler said:
Why would I do that? I've been playing her since DoA3/2U days. She's my main, she always will be and I take pride in knowing that the community for years acknowledged me as one of the top Hitomi players. There's nothing wrong with wanting her to be as good as she was back then. She got stripped down pretty hard in DoA5 to the point where she's very basic and has little to work with.
She's middle of the road. She can win in high level, but she has to try 10x harder than most due to her limitations. I never once said she's trash tier now am I making her look like trash tier. I'm simply correcting you on things that are flat out wrong. You're over estimating tools that are not that great. No offense, but you're not a high level player, you're basing things on experience of playing other mediocre players.
She is dominate on the zoning/whiff punishment. Her wall threat is terrifying. However she is not a mix up queen, she is not a low poke queen. Playing aggressive with her is just going to get you fuzzy guarded, counter hit and blown up. You have to play her conservatively and at mid range.
She definitely needs some buffs, at the very least some mechanics added to some of her tools to add threat to them and open up the neutral game a bit instead of making her a one trick wonder.
Edit:
This is extremely old footage, but here's an example.
See how I constantly stay at mid range looking for whiff punishment? When I'm forced up close I use 2p whenever I can to keep my +1 to make my 6p and 6k 12 frames and my jabs 9 frames, but I'm staying at mid range as much as possible.
Again, its old footage, I don't upload anymore as I don't play much anymore and xbox community is dead, but the core idea is still the same even if I play slightly different now to adjust for changes like the new juggle setups and obvious 3f+k doesn't guaranteed a force tech anymore (worst change ever, give me that back!)
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Princess Kasumi
Well-Known Member
That is the point of the Hitomi BS video. I don't play her and I can still get away with her BS by doing the 6K string and the 6P string, this alone explains and shows, she is strong and of course in the right hands, I play also Tekken besides DOA, so I've enough experience with 3D fighters.
The problem is, you make Hitomi look like a trash tier character, while she is able to win in high level play. A character who deals decent damage, GREAT range and strings with options is what most characters do not have. Expert holds is not needed when she has these elements in her game-play.
Playing Marie Rose with short range, mostly 2 hits strings that hardly has an low poke option and her expert holds does not do her any favour while she is struggling to reach her opponent. So be thankful, Hitomi does not suffer like Marie Rose does in DOA5LR.
The problem is, you make Hitomi look like a trash tier character, while she is able to win in high level play. A character who deals decent damage, GREAT range and strings with options is what most characters do not have. Expert holds is not needed when she has these elements in her game-play.
Playing Marie Rose with short range, mostly 2 hits strings that hardly has an low poke option and her expert holds does not do her any favour while she is struggling to reach her opponent. So be thankful, Hitomi does not suffer like Marie Rose does in DOA5LR.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Princess Kasumi said:
You're not getting away with any kind of BS....You're playing people who don't know how to play. I'm not sure you're grasping this concept. Nothing in that video explains anything other than 2 mediocre players were going at it. Its not a bad thing, not everyone is great at the game, hell I'm only average at it, but you can't base a characters strength on low level matches where you can get away with spamming unsafe stuff.
Princess Kasumi said:
Except I'm not....you're not even reading what I'm saying and I'm going to say it one more time. She's an absolute monster at zoning and whiff punishment. Its where she absolutely excels. The things you are suggesting that make her good....do not make her good and do not work in high level play. You can't play her like that against good players. You're just going to get thrashed.
Princess Kasumi said:
What? Her expert holds give guaranteed followups, she has a spinning punch parry with guaranteed follow ups, an offensive hold with guaranteed BT setups and probably one of the most evasive side steps in the game with the option to attack or OH out of it. She's in a significantly better position than Hitomi and has way more tools to work with.
Fantailler
Well-Known Member
Tried to have a conversation,which isn't too bad, but thanks for reminding me how much of a mediocre player i am fighting mediocre players online....
Yeah whatever... I never questionned your status or Hitomi's gameplan while agreeing on many of your points...
Yeah ofc going full string on an experienced player is suicidal,and no body does it,but i still believe you can condition your opponent with some of them if used wisely, or go back to neutral/spacing,which again isn't what i call flowchart Hitomi.
She excels at zoning and we both agree,but i still think she's one of the characters that retains a lot of variations within her many strings available,covering many heights,hence the nerf of her tools,hence their average status.And i told you they may have gone too far with the nerf-hammer.
I'd prefer her with less strings but with more significant tools and better framedata.
-Better frame data for more Sabakis.
-More guard break with pushblock over frame advantage, but it wouldn't hurt her.
I never said her tools at close range are more than enough to win especially at high level with her,but it easily beats a newcomer.
I may not be competitive player but i know what it takes to be one and pretty much understand how it works.
And i now for sure that a low, by design, isn't supposed to grant you a significant advantage on NH especially when you have access to it within several strings and starters, unless your character is specifically designed around it(Lion in VF for example) .Yeah some characters have it in DOA and it's dumb asf, and if SE is gone for good we'll all have a great time with DOA6...
Yeah whatever... I never questionned your status or Hitomi's gameplan while agreeing on many of your points...
Yeah ofc going full string on an experienced player is suicidal,and no body does it,but i still believe you can condition your opponent with some of them if used wisely, or go back to neutral/spacing,which again isn't what i call flowchart Hitomi.
She excels at zoning and we both agree,but i still think she's one of the characters that retains a lot of variations within her many strings available,covering many heights,hence the nerf of her tools,hence their average status.And i told you they may have gone too far with the nerf-hammer.
I'd prefer her with less strings but with more significant tools and better framedata.
-Better frame data for more Sabakis.
-More guard break with pushblock over frame advantage, but it wouldn't hurt her.
I never said her tools at close range are more than enough to win especially at high level with her,but it easily beats a newcomer.
I may not be competitive player but i know what it takes to be one and pretty much understand how it works.
And i now for sure that a low, by design, isn't supposed to grant you a significant advantage on NH especially when you have access to it within several strings and starters, unless your character is specifically designed around it(Lion in VF for example) .Yeah some characters have it in DOA and it's dumb asf, and if SE is gone for good we'll all have a great time with DOA6...
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Raansu
Well-Known Member
They didn't nerf her tools, the system just changed from doa4 and 5, and her string variations really arnt that varied. They all end the same way.
Universal OH's from doa4 went away so she naturally lost her frame trap from parry. Can't be helped. The parry remained +7
Her uncharged guard break that lead to an unblockable (but holdable) setup was turned into her power blow animation.
The only "nerf" from doa4 to doa5 was that 6f+p didn't get additional frames on hi-counter throw losing out on an unblockable follow up, which I just completely disagree with. I made the read, I went for the throw, I should get the +15 from hi-counter throw, not another 50/50 loop where I'm just as likely to eat damage myself. Better off just going for big damage 33f+p throw if I'm hunting hi-counter throws.
with doa5 most of her nerfs were system changes. Her guaranteed force tech from 3f+k was lost due to the system as a whole changing, so most of the cast that had a downward attack like that lost those setups, with the exception of obviously specific characters like grapplers etc... The only direct nerfs that I recall off the top of my head was changing 236k from -1 to -5, and 3f+k from -3 to -7. Both of which I disagree with completely. She lost her force tech from it, there was no reason to make it unsafe, and 236k should have been changed back to a mid kick and made -6 instead of just getting what little advantage it had since fuzzy guarding it just guarantee's a throw.
I'm not suggesting her lows give significant advantage, I actually don't agree with lows giving large stuns on NH at all. If stagger escape stays gone then the +5 she has currently is perfectly fine. I'm simply disagreeing with the fact that people think she's a strong mix up character and that she has strong low pokes. Just both are completely untrue.
At high level play you're just going to run into a fuzzy guard and never pull off an in string sweep. Even if you do have them slightly conditioned with throws, you're still rarely going to get the sweep, and when you do you're just going to be at -1 anyways from SE. You're better off poking with lows at a distance with 1k and 2f+k to push them back and keep your mid range.
Universal OH's from doa4 went away so she naturally lost her frame trap from parry. Can't be helped. The parry remained +7
Her uncharged guard break that lead to an unblockable (but holdable) setup was turned into her power blow animation.
The only "nerf" from doa4 to doa5 was that 6f+p didn't get additional frames on hi-counter throw losing out on an unblockable follow up, which I just completely disagree with. I made the read, I went for the throw, I should get the +15 from hi-counter throw, not another 50/50 loop where I'm just as likely to eat damage myself. Better off just going for big damage 33f+p throw if I'm hunting hi-counter throws.
with doa5 most of her nerfs were system changes. Her guaranteed force tech from 3f+k was lost due to the system as a whole changing, so most of the cast that had a downward attack like that lost those setups, with the exception of obviously specific characters like grapplers etc... The only direct nerfs that I recall off the top of my head was changing 236k from -1 to -5, and 3f+k from -3 to -7. Both of which I disagree with completely. She lost her force tech from it, there was no reason to make it unsafe, and 236k should have been changed back to a mid kick and made -6 instead of just getting what little advantage it had since fuzzy guarding it just guarantee's a throw.
I'm not suggesting her lows give significant advantage, I actually don't agree with lows giving large stuns on NH at all. If stagger escape stays gone then the +5 she has currently is perfectly fine. I'm simply disagreeing with the fact that people think she's a strong mix up character and that she has strong low pokes. Just both are completely untrue.
At high level play you're just going to run into a fuzzy guard and never pull off an in string sweep. Even if you do have them slightly conditioned with throws, you're still rarely going to get the sweep, and when you do you're just going to be at -1 anyways from SE. You're better off poking with lows at a distance with 1k and 2f+k to push them back and keep your mid range.
Fantailler
Well-Known Member
I should have been more precise about it.I already mentionned it earlier,but yeah i believe she suffered the most from it, but again the nerf of NH and lows was more than deserved and needed.
Our conversation started because it looked like you clearly wanted more from her lows.I tried to explain that it was "deserved" since she's annoying with her strings and she pretty much translated everything i hate, pardon my french,within the clusterfuck that DOA can be.
Some characters escaped it but SE helped a lot in those situations, which is why i'm strongly advocating for its return.
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Raansu
Well-Known Member
Her lows have the same properties in 5 as they did in 4 and SE did the same thing to them. They were never nerfed. In fact, overall she's exactly the same in 5 as she was in 4 other than 5's system changes and some moves getting altered frame data, but most of her frame data is identical including safe and unsafe strings with some things swapped out. 6p+k for example was slowed down and made unsafe, but its also the CB now so its purpose has changed. Some things removed, some new strings, but in general she's a carbon copy with weaker tools and she was already just barely mid tier in 4.
I'm assuming you're referring to this; "her low sweeps in string are way too obvious and she's got zero safe options in those strings -_-" which was just me grumbling wishing she had a safe follow up in that string somewhere given that you pretty much have to free cancel or go for the bacon and finish the string hoping they try to avoid the throw or mess up the fuzzy guard.
If I can't keep my distance and I'm forced to hunt for a counter hit at close range and I do 7pk or a similar string and it gets blocked? It just sucks there's nothing safe to follow into it. Don't get me wrong, I don't think those strings should have any safe enders, I was just grumbling wishing she had more safe options that things like 3pp or just better crushes than a slow 3p+k or that guard breaks didn't need a long ass blatantly obvious charge.
I'm assuming you're referring to this; "her low sweeps in string are way too obvious and she's got zero safe options in those strings -_-" which was just me grumbling wishing she had a safe follow up in that string somewhere given that you pretty much have to free cancel or go for the bacon and finish the string hoping they try to avoid the throw or mess up the fuzzy guard.
If I can't keep my distance and I'm forced to hunt for a counter hit at close range and I do 7pk or a similar string and it gets blocked? It just sucks there's nothing safe to follow into it. Don't get me wrong, I don't think those strings should have any safe enders, I was just grumbling wishing she had more safe options that things like 3pp or just better crushes than a slow 3p+k or that guard breaks didn't need a long ass blatantly obvious charge.
Fantailler
Well-Known Member
I may be wrong since my xbox died a long time ago but i'm pretty sure her lows stunned on NH in 4 Raansu...Like 99% of lows.
My reference point is DOAD atm. I'm not sure but aside adjustments it pretty much is 4 if i'm correct.
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Fantailler
Well-Known Member
Really ?
Chaos
Well-Known Member
This is EXACTLY how I use her because it's the most effective way to survive. Using her like she some sort of VF character gets you nowhere.
I learned the hard way.
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Raansu
Well-Known Member
ok you got me on that, i forgot they tripped. They still had the same frame data though and stagger escape still negated the advantage they gained. They function more or less the same. they just changed the animation to a stagger.
UpSideDownGRUNT
Well-Known Member
Hitomi has got me so fucking hyped! She's truly perfect.
Also, I'm fairly certain the combo at 0:44 is totally brand new including the initial hit which is similar to Ein's 7P. Also, her BB is pretty damn good! need to see some TORIYAHs(46P) and her win pose.
Also, I'm fairly certain the combo at 0:44 is totally brand new including the initial hit which is similar to Ein's 7P. Also, her BB is pretty damn good! need to see some TORIYAHs(46P) and her win pose.