Some gameplay issues with DOA6?

#1
Don't double-post
I know we're up in clouds still hype over the trailer, but we gotta bring it down to planet earth reality real quick.

Sidestep attacks need to go. Even without the weird buff they received in the new game, they fundamentally break the flow of DOA combat and reward low effort newbies too much. From the looks of the trailer, Helena seems to pull off her sidestep attack basically straight out of stun to easily and quickly dodge Kasumi and deliver a counter attack. I know some players of other fighting games complained about holding out of stuns in DOA4, but now imagine simply attacking out of stun. This doesn't make sense at all from a gameplay perspective. Even if there is just 1 neutral idle frame in there before activation, Helena lands this sidestep attack and then gets to capitalize off it with a huge combo, and the sidestep itself simply dodges any non-tracking or straight-forward attack so the defender doesn't even need to really understand their opponent's moveset that would otherwise be required to capitalize in a hold situation. IMHO this sidestep stuff was a turn-off for me in DOA5 and buffing it seems like the last thing they should have done before removing it completely for DOA6.

Another issue is with the gameplay from the interview with Shimbori. Zack performs a Super against Hayate at one point while Hayate is on the ground rising with a wake-up kick, and Hayate's kick goes clean through Zack as if he had invincibility frames while using the Super. What the heck is this? DOA game-feel is all about moves that hit cause they look like they should, and they even went as far as making low-holds in DOA5 a much more extreme crouch than they'd looked like previously. It begs how useful a Super Hold would be when the Super Attack can basically accomplish the same thing but with better results.

Am I the only one who really looked at the gameplay and tried to understand what was going on? What are your own thoughts on the gameplay shown so far?

Its just gonna fall in all the same pitfalls as doa5.
 
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NewWestFan

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#2
Still got till next year to hammer out any issues. Besides that what we've seen so far isnt really enough to get a grasp on how the game is going to feel. All the people concerned about it just being a slightly uprezzed DOA5 with meter need to pay attention lmao They're changing stuff and I wouldnt be surprised if a few movesets were updated along with these changes or atleast move properties (Which will definitely be changing now that CB is gone).

I'm excited not concerned. For TN to be doing things like this means they aren't content to just let it stagnate. Stagnation is death to fighting games.

Let them do their thing.
 
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#3
Still got till next year to hammer out any issues. Besides that what we've seen so far isnt really enough to get a grasp on how the game is going to feel. All the people concerned about it just being a slightly uprezzed DOA5 with meter need to pay attention lmao They're changing stuff and I wouldnt be surprised if a few movesets were updated along with these changes or atleast move properties (Which will definitely be changing now that CB is gone).

I'm excited not concerned. For TN to be doing things like this means they aren't content to just let it stagnate. Stagnation is death to fighting games.

Let them do their thing.
Stagnation is only death if you're stopping forward progress to stay in the desert. If you've already made it to your destination though, feel free to sit back and relax and enjoy it. They already made it to their destination with DOA4.
 

Matt Ponton

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#5
Super is a sabaki that beats out all highs and mids. Hayate did a mid kick, Zack's attack sabaki'd it. No different from doing an attack that crushes the wake-up kick via evasion or damage. You can do similar things with Power launchers and Power Blows in DOA5.
 
#6
I dont remember if you can stuff a wakeup attack though. I'm pretty sure they have some invincibility right? Like what, a jumping kick against a low wakeup, the kick only beats the low once the low has reached active frames?
I didn't play a lot of DOA5 cause they changed too much over DOA4, but I also haven't played DOA4 in years either; yet i seem to remember wakeup kicks being somewhat safe sans jumping over a low wakeup or holds in general.
I'm just not a fan of skirting the hold mechanics and DOA5 had a lot of it and this super sabaki thing does it too, but the super sabaki also has a lot of power behind it. If you're hayate and zack runs up on you while you're down, you put yourself in the position between knowing you're getting baited to do a low wakeup to beat any potential use of the Break Blow where lows can beaten by jumping attacks or just low holds, or risking a higher wakeup kick that will get utterly bodied by the damage output of the sabaki Break Blow that apparently doesn't last so long that it can't be used on reaction of seeing a wakeup attack. Or you're waking up straight to standing at a frame disadvantage while you rise.

I'm not liking what they've shown so far about Break Blow but we also havent seen all situations, like one break blow versus a delayed break blow; which one connects? Or a break blow versus a hold, or a break blow versus a throw.
 
#9
Meter powered moves having invul frames? Sounds like good game design to me.
The sabaki raw Break Blow is basically a powered up Easy Operation hold that covers 3/4ths of the available hold directions.

I liked CvS2EO too but DOA is already designed around easy inputs. Its just one of those games that asks more of you for understanding the roster's movesets and stage layouts rather than the focus being on anal input execution. Making DOA6 even easier to play thanks to how all the new and very effective features are mapped to the S button just seems wholly unnecessary.
Its sad cause all these new ways of attacking and these break blow animations look wicked and thought out from a visual design point of view, but jeeze these features and their implementation really take a dump on core DOA gameplay.
 

GarryJaune

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#10
upload_2018-6-13_19-51-1.png


see right there? Lee close hit 246p kasumi's throw and damaged more than thirty percent life bar
this is not usually happened in Lee's game in general

But the point is,if offensive player try to throw his opponent in stun,he has to risk a 2x damage payback,even if he succeed,throw damage is only 1.6x,and this is super unfair for throw
 

Raansu

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#12
The whole side step thing. We've had side step attacks since DoA3. DoA needs side steps, the game is too linear without it. I'm glad we still have some type of side step attack in 6, but I still believe the form of side step in 5 was the correct direction and needed to be improved on from there.

I dont remember if you can stuff a wakeup attack though. I'm pretty sure they have some invincibility right? Like what, a jumping kick against a low wakeup, the kick only beats the low once the low has reached active frames?
I didn't play a lot of DOA5 cause they changed too much over DOA4, but I also haven't played DOA4 in years either; yet i seem to remember wakeup kicks being somewhat safe sans jumping over a low wakeup or holds in general.
You 100% can stuff any wake up kick. There are certain attacks when timed correctly will definitely stuff a mid wake up kick and launch you in the air. The timing is strict, but this could be done in 4 and 5. It was just a bit more convoluted in 5 because you could throw in a high wake up kick, which never made sense to me. The only thing that made wake up kicks in 4 feel safe was that they had huge hitboxes making them feel like fireballs hitting you from a mile away.


I'm just not a fan of skirting the hold mechanics and DOA5 had a lot of it and this super sabaki thing does it too, but the super sabaki also has a lot of power behind it. If you're hayate and zack runs up on you while you're down, you put yourself in the position between knowing you're getting baited to do a low wakeup to beat any potential use of the Break Blow where lows can beaten by jumping attacks or just low holds, or risking a higher wakeup kick that will get utterly bodied by the damage output of the sabaki Break Blow that apparently doesn't last so long that it can't be used on reaction of seeing a wakeup attack. Or you're waking up straight to standing at a frame disadvantage while you rise.

I'm not liking what they've shown so far about Break Blow but we also havent seen all situations, like one break blow versus a delayed break blow; which one connects? Or a break blow versus a hold, or a break blow versus a throw.
In general I'm a fan of any kind of tool that rewards the player and removes the hold mechanic. DoA4 was an absolute nightmare to play because of how everything was 50/50. They changed the stun system from 2 and 3 to only needing 2 or 3 hits for max height to needing twice as many hits in 4 to reach max height, all the while playing this constant guessing game in stun to avoid the hold. I won the neutral game, I got the stun, why do I have to keep playing cat and mouse for 7 or 8 more hits to get a max height launcher? Then they added holds off wall bounces and wake up kicks on wall slams.....ugh doa4. No, just no from anything from that game.

This is also why I'm not a huge fan of this break blow having a sabaki tied to it. Give it priority properties so its a bit stronger or something. Heck I'm even ok with it being used in a juggle, but please we don't need it to have a sabaki on top of a break hold. In general I don't like this meter system at all, especially with how fast it seemed to build in the videos we have seen. The meta with this meter is going to devolve back into doa4 cat and mouse game with nothing but low sweeps to avoid the stupid sabaki......oh wait the meter holds everything with the hold version.......*sigh*
 
#14
The whole side step thing. We've had side step attacks since DoA3. DoA needs side steps, the game is too linear without it. I'm glad we still have some type of side step attack in 6, but I still believe the form of side step in 5 was the correct direction and needed to be improved on from there.



You 100% can stuff any wake up kick. There are certain attacks when timed correctly will definitely stuff a mid wake up kick and launch you in the air. The timing is strict, but this could be done in 4 and 5. It was just a bit more convoluted in 5 because you could throw in a high wake up kick, which never made sense to me. The only thing that made wake up kicks in 4 feel safe was that they had huge hitboxes making them feel like fireballs hitting you from a mile away.




In general I'm a fan of any kind of tool that rewards the player and removes the hold mechanic. DoA4 was an absolute nightmare to play because of how everything was 50/50. They changed the stun system from 2 and 3 to only needing 2 or 3 hits for max height to needing twice as many hits in 4 to reach max height, all the while playing this constant guessing game in stun to avoid the hold. I won the neutral game, I got the stun, why do I have to keep playing cat and mouse for 7 or 8 more hits to get a max height launcher? Then they added holds off wall bounces and wake up kicks on wall slams.....ugh doa4. No, just no from anything from that game.

This is also why I'm not a huge fan of this break blow having a sabaki tied to it. Give it priority properties so its a bit stronger or something. Heck I'm even ok with it being used in a juggle, but please we don't need it to have a sabaki on top of a break hold. In general I don't like this meter system at all, especially with how fast it seemed to build in the videos we have seen. The meta with this meter is going to devolve back into doa4 cat and mouse game with nothing but low sweeps to avoid the stupid sabaki......oh wait the meter holds everything with the hold version.......*sigh*
Theres a divine difference between universal sidestep attacks compared to character specific sidestep attacks.
And if you prefer games without holds, maybe DOA isn't what you should be interested in.
 

Raansu

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#15
Theres a divine difference between universal sidestep attacks compared to character specific sidestep attacks.
And if you prefer games without holds, maybe DOA isn't what you should be interested in.
I don't prefer a game without holds. I like the hold mechanic. I'm just in favor of more situations where its not available. There's gotta be a line with risk and reward. Last thing I want is a repeat of doa4 where it is risk, risk, risk, risk, risk.....oh I just got nothing for all those risks and instead got punished even though I won out the neutral game.
 
#16
I don't prefer a game without holds. I like the hold mechanic. I'm just in favor of more situations where its not available. There's gotta be a line with risk and reward. Last thing I want is a repeat of doa4 where it is risk, risk, risk, risk, risk.....oh I just got nothing for all those risks and instead got punished even though I won out the neutral game.
The doa4 stun and hold game is back but its also cut in with guaranteed situations like 5. Still not ideal to getting back to the perfection that was DOA4, but more against your wishes than not which I'm all for DOA going against the "people" who legit couldn't adjust to or enjoy DOA4. I used to rage over DOA4 but even that means something when DOA3's gameplay was emotionless and DOA5's was just an everpresent puzzling headache.
I couldn't care less if any future game never took the feeings of DOA3 and DOA5 players into consideration cause these were some awful games from a competitive viewpoint with non-existent competitive scenes.
You are right that the meta for DOA6 is ready to become even dumber shit than DOA5 was if these new mechanics aren't fixed though. And by dumber than DOA5, understand that also means dumber than DOA4 by your point of view
 

Raansu

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#17
the perfection that was DOA4,
I'm sorry, what? Nope, I can't take you seriously anymore.

DOA3 and DOA5 players into consideration cause these were some awful games from a competitive viewpoint with non-existent competitive scenes.
What? DoA5 has been the most successful competitive scene out of any of the doa games. DoA4 doesn't even come close to the turnouts that 5 has had over the years. The majority of the competitive community for doa4 hated the game.
 
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#18
I'm sorry, what? Nope, I can't take you seriously anymore.



What? DoA5 has been the most successful competitive scene out of any of the doa games. DoA4 doesn't even come close to the turnouts that 5 has had over the years. The majority of the competitive community for doa4 hated the game.
You're confusing the fact that people attended DOA tournaments with the idea that anyone gave a shit that DOA tournaments were being played. I'm sure the max lifetime view hours of MLP on twitch surpass all the 6 years of DOA5 tournaments. The only people who cared about DOA5's competitive scene were specifically DOA5's competitive scene alone. Not even necessarily the same scene as DOA in general. I can vouch for myself that I know I didn't care about 5's scene. I saw literally one tournament and laughed at my ass off at the finals because it was exceedingly self evident that the people winning completely did not understand how to even play the game and was not too fundamentally different than the exhibition mock matches for the DOA5 Alpha.
Let me correct myself, they understood how to play DOA5 but not DOA, and only the DOA veterans were being sent to losers for still thinking the game played like DOA even up to LR. The game was retarded and only the most blind fanboy would have been unable to truly differentiate between DOA5 and prior games. It really was an entirely different and extremely simplified game than DOA had ever been.
"1 million lifetime sales" is how I believe shimbori put it.
 
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Raansu

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#19
You're confusing the fact that people attended DOA tournaments with the idea that anyone gave a shit that DOA tournaments were being played.
Uh....this community gives a shit that tournaments are being played.

I'm sure the max lifetime view hours of MLP on twitch surpass all the 6 years of DOA5 tournaments.
Good for them? That has nothing to do with the DoA community.

The only people who cared about DOA5's competitive scene were specifically DOA5's competitive scene alone.
No shit? That's how it works in any game.

I saw literally one tournament and laughed at my ass off at the finals because it was exceedingly self evident that the people winning completely did not understand how to even play the game and was not too fundamentally different than the exhibition mock matches for the DOA5 Alpha.
Then attend one of the majors this year. Surely you'll have no problem winning it all, right? Clearly you are the master. :rolleyes:

I'm decent at the game, with most of my skill carried through knowledge of the system, just my reaction time is lacking, but I know better than to say stupid shit like what you just said because I know full well that players like Rikuto, Kwiggles, Crazy Steady etc.... would completely mop the floor with me.
 
#20
Uh....this community gives a shit that tournaments are being played.



Good for them? That has nothing to do with the DoA community.



No shit? That's how it works in any game.



Then attend one of the majors this year. Surely you'll have no problem winning it all, right? Clearly you are the master. :rolleyes:

I'm decent at the game, with most of my skill carried through knowledge of the system, just my reaction time is lacking, but I know better than to say stupid shit like what you just said because I know full well that players like Rikuto, Kwiggles, Crazy Steady etc.... would completely mop the floor with me.
Did @Rikuto ever win more tournaments than that early tournament where basically everyone was still playing by DOA rules, thinking it was just "DOA4, but different"?
 
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