The Art Style and Graphics Discussion

[Argentus]

You are the first one I ever met who thought that... .__. The sprite work looks amazing, technically and stylistically and is probably the best we will ever see or at least for a very long time see. Now that even SNK scrapped it after working and perfecting it for many years. SNK even made an informative anniversary website about their pixel art including a gallery where you can look at all the amazing models with different animations:
http://kofaniv.snkplaymore.co.jp/english/info/15th_anniv/2d_dot/index.php
Here right to the model viewer:
http://kofaniv.snkplaymore.co.jp/english/info/15th_anniv/2d_dot/gallery/character/index.php

Wow...calling KoF's sprites "hideous", and considering how awful the new 3D models look, this is almost blasphemous! D:

Yeah on a technical level the sprites are well made and animated.

The problem is the actual art style and character redesigns. They made half the cast look like fucking mutants. A few of them have eyes but no nose or mouth, or their eyes are down where their mouth should be so their face is all forehead, the body proportions are some nightmarish silent hill shit on some characters, etc etc.

That link can't load on my phone but off memory, mai, Leona and king had that "eyes too low too much forehead" problem, Ralf Clark and terry had godawful pinhead proportions with no necks, etc. Then others like Elizabeth and vice just had...awkward looking faces and hair.

Some looks great like Shen, who looked downright amazing though.

As opposed to this new game which has the OPPOSITE problem: the actual character designs are solid, but hampered by graphics that look so ameturish they se to be characte models straight from an early PS2 game.

That's why I said a little bit. I just want him to look less..SEVERE. That bothered me too, I remember him wanting to inspire kids or something in SFIV's story and then wreck it ralph sticks him in the villain club

The explanation for that is actually kinda funny.

The writer admitted he knew that Zangief wasn't actually a villain, but as a kid Gief always wrecked him in arcade mode so Zangief was the biggest bad guy ever to him XD

 

[Tyaren]

As opposed to this new game which has the OPPOSITE problem: the actual character designs are solid, but hampered by graphics that look so ameturish they se to be characte models straight from an early PS2 game.

I vehemently disagree here too. Seriously, can people stop with the stupid: "This are PS2 models!" There's nothing wrong with the character models (polygon models, texturing wise...) or the graphics engine in general. It is the complete lack of a coherent, unique and recognizable art style or vision that makes the game look so "amateurish". I'll quote myself from some time earlier in this thread to explain it better:

Why most of the King of Fighters character design is just meh! D:

The designers of this game too must've thought that the more detailed and polished a character model is the better. But a model can look detailed and polished (intricate polygon mesh, nice textures and shaders, well animated...) and still look uninspired and just forgettable.
The King of Fighters designs before XIV were the exact opposite of that. They were less detailed, but they had oomph! They were powerful and recognizable.

Original Terry design:

New Terry design:

Original Terry looked very iconic in style. Terry now does look nearly the same...nearly. His design gained a lot of nice details like logos and stitches...but for some reason they chose to cover up his sleeves. But his cut sleeves were actually the very detail that stood out in Terry's original design. From the stereotypical american youth it transformed him to a badass fighter. Everything covered up, with just the muscular arms exposed, it made him look very powerful and gave his punches the right blow. This is now sadly gone...

Original Kyo:

New Kyo design:

Kyo was already a pretty boy in his original design but he also looked like a rebel....since he is supposed to be one. His jacket had a clean design and a clean cut shape. This biker jacket (similar to Kyo's black biker jackets in other parts of the series) gives him that rebellious look. The new jacket looks similar at a first glance but is full of unnecessary details that make it feel cluttered. The shape also isn't clean cut anymore but seems almost womanly fanning out at the hip area. Normally such jackets accentuate a man's V shaped upper body. There are sometimes even literally V's plastered on it.

Spoiler

The new jacket neither accentuates manliness or strength nor does it actually look like a biker jacket anymore. I won't address the shiny, black J-pop star hair because they already changed it themselves...


Andy's original design:

Andy's new design:

With Andy it at first also seems as if there wasn't much of a change. But if you look just a little closer everything that made the original look great is watered down in the new design. Original Andy's slicked back long hair looks badass (is there a good alternate English expression? XD), new Andy wears it boringly parted. The hair length too is dull. It's neither long nor really short... The red flames were contrasting nicely with the white of the original fighting garb. Now that contrast is reduced by the dark blue and grey parts.
Like the other fighters Andy has also considerably slimmed down. To make that loss of visual strength perfect they even gave him that grey shirt underneath his fighting garb so that nearly no muscularity is seen. :/

This is an oldschool fighting game, it's character design should look powerful and iconic. Now it looks just weak and forgettable. :/

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

Kyo and Terry are literally just biker dude and trucker guy. these arent really original or very inspired designs.

 

[Tyaren]

Kyo and Terry are literally just biker dude and trucker guy. these arent really original or very inspired designs.

That's not really the point. They were visually striking and recognizable. Now the idea behind everything is uninspired as well as their visuals.

All fighting game characters are clichés basically...(They do even thrive off of this)....but you can make a cliché still look great.

Lol, I'll take a break for today. XD

 

[Argentus]

No with the new models you can literwlly see that there is no skin or detail, its just flat colors, again, like early PS2 models.

It reminds me of

 

[KasumiLover]

I'm OK with the other two's design changes, except for Andy. The shirt and design change, and the completely unnecessary and boring looking haircut makes him look generic and dull.... I thought about using him when I saw his 2D artwork on the wiki, but now that I see how he'll look, no thanks. XD Just goes to show, if it's not broke, don't try to fix it.

 

[Argentus]

I just realized Terrys hat no longer says Fatal Fury, either...

 

[Tyaren]

The characters simply had iconic, timeless and very recognizable looks, so there was no need to change these, most of all if they apparently right now don't have a character designer among them who really knows what he's doing. Apparently many people left the company and it was bought by Chinese. There were staff changes.

@Argentus, *sigh* these are very far from PS2 character models. Just because their skin doesn't show pores or moles that doesn't mean these are technically bad/outdated character models. The art style is supposed to be anime, similar to DOA4, their skin is supposed to look like wax. Not saying this looks good or is a good idea, but again, it's the choice they made in art style.

These character models are technically done perfectly fine. They visibly do have more polygons than any Tekken 7 character (look how smooth these are! No polygon edges to be found.) and their texturing is at least better than any of the non-default DOA5/DOA5U/Last Round costumes. Now please do me a favor and really stop spreading this PS2 nonsense elsewhere. :/ Maybe you can even tell others about the real problem, the character design and art style, because only then it can be really improved.

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

No with the new models you can literwlly see that there is no skin or detail, its just flat colors, again, like early PS2 models.

It reminds me of

Shadow of Memories AKA Raiden's Wacky Time Travel Adventure . "I wonder if that bar's still around"

 

[Chapstick]

It looks like it could do with better lighting. Warmer, more contrast, whatever. And if they're gonna do flat skin textures they should have a good shader or whatever that's called to give the skin some kinda look that isn't just plastic.

 

[Argentus]

The characters simply had iconic, timeless and very recognizable looks, so there was no need to change these, most of all if they apparently right now don't have a character designer among them who really knows what he's doing. Apparently many people left the company and it was bought by Chinese. There were staff changes.

@Argentus, *sigh* these are very far from PS2 character models. Just because their skin doesn't show pores or moles that doesn't mean these are technically bad/outdated character models. The art style is supposed to be anime, similar to DOA4, their skin is supposed to look like wax. Not saying this looks good or is a good idea, but again, it's the choice they made in art style.

These character models are technically done perfectly fine. They visibly do have more polygons than any Tekken 7 character (look how smooth these are! No polygon edges to be found.) and their texturing is at least better than any of the non-default DOA5/DOA5U/Last Round costumes. Now please do me a favor and really stop spreading this PS2 nonsense elsewhere. :/ Maybe you can even tell others about the real problem, the character design and art style, because only then it can be really improved.

*saves the angel picture*

If they were trying to be "anime" they failed bad. They just look like plain models with no detail to them. They feel half passed. If they wanted to be realistic, make them realistic, if they wanted to be anime, they should have gone the GGXrd route and stylized it. As is, the models just look and feel unfinished.


I'll stop saying they look like PS2 models when they stop looking like character models in my old PS2 games.

These just look like base mesh with no finish on them.

Shadow of Memories AKA Raiden's Wacky Time Travel Adventure . "I wonder if that bar's still around"

I have it on os2 as Shadow of Destiny. Loved that game so much

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

Maybe some shading also... You can have 3D anime art style and still have shading good lighting. Good examples are Tales games, Persona, Star Ocean V and iM@S especially the newest one.

 

[Tyaren]

You guys are right and those choices (shaders, contrast, shadowing, just as character design) are nearly 100% stylistical choices...the PS4 can totally handle all of that (except in Street Fighter 5 obviously). So don't say the graphics are bad on a technical level, say they just have no clue how to stylistically transfer the anime pixel art to 3D. If they had fancier textures and special effects and even better polygon models it will still only look mediocre in the end. But it doesn't look horrid anymore, I have to say that.

 

[Goarmagon]

His full name is supposed to be Hiroaki Hashimoto but no one actually knows for sure. He usually just goes by Hiroaki. Yeah, his usual work is pretty painterly, colorful and expressive. I also love how attractive all the characters are that he draws. More of his art:

Here's by the way his official blog, where he from time to time shares new sketches and illustrations: http://hiroaki-blog.blogspot.com
Unfortunately he doesn't update it very often... :/

And then, as you mentioned, there's Takuji Kawano who is Soul Calibur's lead designer but who also does work for the Tekken series. His style is less painterly but always still a little rough and with lots of texture. You can often see his original pencil sketch lines underneath his art. He too designs all his characters to be super attractive. Even the "ugly" ones (Cervantes, Rock, Astaroth...) can imho still be considered pretty-ugly. XD

Another more painterly artist is Eisuke Ogura who worked mostly with SNK in the past and did the character design for KOF 12-13. It is a lot cleaner than Hiroaki but it still has a nice texture to it. Some of his work:

To be honest, I usually don't especially like the painterly kind of style. I'm a very clean artist myself (at least that's what people always tell me. ) so I can't really give you many other especially painterly working artists/character designers. :/

Thank you for that post. I wonder how Kawano keeps his pencils when he paints of he doesnt do it digitally.

 

[Tyaren]

Thank you for that post. I wonder how Kawano keeps his pencils when he paints of he doesnt do it digitally.

Oh, Takuji Kawano totally is a digital colorist. It's fairly easy to keep the pencil lines there. Just scan your pencil lines and do the coloration on the PC on another layer above the lines. I did that in the past often too. Maybe I should again... It's a cool effect.

Here for example you can still make out some of my pencil lines to give it that hand drawn and a little rougher look:

Spoiler

 

[Juihau]

What kind of confuses me is that, from what I'm aware, KoFXIII's sprites were created using 3D models of the characters. If that's the case, wouldn't they still have those models available to use? Why make entirely new ones?

 

[Tyaren]

What kind of confuses me is that, from what I'm aware, KoFXIII's sprites were created using 3D models of the characters. If that's the case, wouldn't they still have those models available to use? Why make entirely new ones?

Models, even if 3dimensional already, that were made to look good in 2D are something entirely different than models that are meant to look good in 3D. It's a little like comparing Roman reliefs to Roman statues:

Reliefs, other than from front perspective, do look horribly off from other perspectives... Which brings us back to @Argentus' argumentation:

I have to agree with you that certain models look a little, lets say, peculiar if you look closer at them. But they look like this to look good in 2D and they are also pretty small, so they have to be stylized in their proportions.

Terry for examples has indeed very broad shoulders and a short neck. But this happened on purpose and not because the artist has no clue of the right body proportions. Not only was Terry supposed to look strong and powerful (thus the big, compact frame), his sprite was also supposed to feel dynamic and 3dimensional. See, the broader his shoulders are, the farther they move from one point to the other in his punching animation, making the animation longer and more fluid. The broad shoulders also limit the loss of body mass that would naturally happen, if Terry's body, especially the shoulders here, were correctly foreshortened. That is even done in Pixar movies. The 3D models are actually not always the same and are sometimes slightly adjusted (like making a nose longer) from one perspective so that it looks good on the 2D screen.
And I'm absolutely sure, there are lots of other less obvious details that were made to make this sprite look visually as good as possible and fitting into the whole game mechanic. They worked for years on these and spent a lot of money. These were more expensive than normal 3D models would have been,

Argentus, I know you are considering to enter the game industry, we talked about that before...but there is actually a lot that you really have to learn and know about before even attempting to jump into the professional world. Regarding what you said about character design and "graphics" I see that there are still some gaps of knowledge and experience to fill. Your view sometimes still seems a little superficial. I studied illustration, art history, figure drawing and character design (and a bit of animation) for several years (I was way over the usual duration of studies, lol) and I already professionally published some stuff internationally, but even I still feel as if I'm not yet ready to swim with the big fishes. These people, in the bigger and well known studios, usually are super knowledeable and talented and the higher ups addionally very experienced. Right now I am working on my portfolio to actually apply to several game developers as a 2D and concept artist and...phew!...I am worried sick! :/ This kind of work is really not that easy and as superficial as it may seem.

Last but not least I think I'm going to stop discussing art and graphics so much in detail here in the future. I do think it's kinda in vain. I'm really passionate about this and I get often carried away, spend lots of time that I should be working and I also am sometimes a little offended by explaining things that I do in some cases have professional knowledge of and people come in and basically just say: Nope, your wrong, because whatever..." or "Art is subjective anyway and there are no rules!" Well then here's a quote from a pretty famous and successful artist that at first glance doesn't seem to care much about rules at all:

"Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.” ― Pablo Picasso.

 

[Juihau]

Models, even if 3dimensional already, that were made to look good in 2D are something entirely different than models that are meant to look good in 3D. It's a little like comparing Roman reliefs to Roman statues:

Yeah, that makes sense. The front/profile views on the site explaining it seemed to suggest that the models were at least proportioned in the way you'd expect looking at the sprites, but I can't say for sure, myself, and I doubt proportions would be the only issue.

Last but not least I think I'm going to stop discussing art and graphics so much in detail here in the future. I do think it's kinda in vain. I'm really passionate about this and I get often carried away, spend lots of time that I should be working and I also am sometimes a little offended by explaining things that I do in some cases have professional knowledge of and people come in and basically say: Nope, your wrong, because whatever..."

For what it's worth, I personally find the things you talk about interesting. I've never had a huge interest in design or the arts in general (I just know what I like, really, and that's it), but I enjoy learning about how things are made, why they're made the way they are, etc. From that perspective, I find art really interesting since it's not something that can be made 'optimal,' and so will differ greatly from person to person.

 

[Jadeinchains]

Models, even if 3dimensional already, that were made to look good in 2D are something entirely different than models that are meant to look good in 3D. It's a little like comparing Roman reliefs to Roman statues:

Reliefs, other than from front perspective, do look horribly off from other perspectives... Which brings us back to @Argentus' argumentation:

I have to agree with you that certain models look a little, lets say, peculiar if you look closer at them. But they look like this to look good in 2D and they are also pretty small, so they have to be stylized in their proportions.

Terry for examples has indeed very broad shoulders and a short neck. But this happened on purpose and not because the artist has no clue of the right body proportions. Not only was Terry supposed to look strong and powerful (thus the big, compact frame), his sprite was also supposed to feel dynamic and 3dimensional. See, the broader his shoulders are, the farther they move from one point to the other in his punching animation, making the animation longer and more fluid. The broad shoulders also limit the loss of body mass that would naturally happen, if Terry's body, especially the shoulders here, were correctly foreshortened. That is even done in Pixar movies. The 3D models are actually not always the same and are sometimes slightly adjusted (like making a nose longer) from one perspective so that it looks good on the 2D screen.
And I'm absolutely sure, there are lots of other less obvious details that were made to make this sprite look visually as good as possible and fitting into the whole game mechanic. They worked for years on these and spent a lot of money. These were more expensive than normal 3D models would have been,

Argentus, I know you are considering to enter the game industry, we talked about that before...but there is actually a lot that you really have to learn and know about before even attempting to jump into the professional world. Regarding what you said about character design and "graphics" I see that there are still some gaps of knowledge and experience to fill. Your view sometimes still seems a little superficial. I studied illustration, art history, figure drawing and character design (and a bit of animation) for several years (I was way over the usual duration of studies, lol) and I already professionally published some stuff internationally, but even I still feel as if I'm not yet ready to swim with the big fishes. These people, in the bigger and well known studios, usually are super knowledeable and talented and the higher ups addionally very experienced. Right now I am working on my portfolio to actually apply to several game developers as a 2D and concept artist and...phew!...I am worried sick! :/ This kind of work is really not that easy and as superficial as it may seem.

Last but not least I think I'm going to stop discussing art and graphics so much in detail here in the future. I do think it's kinda in vain. I'm really passionate about this and I get often carried away, spend lots of time that I should be working and I also am sometimes a little offended by explaining things that I do in some cases have professional knowledge of and people come in and basically just say: Nope, your wrong, because whatever..." or "Art is subjective anyway and there are no rules!" Well then here's a quote from a pretty famous and successful artist that at first glance doesn't seem to care much about rules at all:

"Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.” ― Pablo Picasso.

That's a shame because like Juihau Im really interested in the things you talk about. ( I don't always know what you mean ) but its always interesting. Regardless this thread still good for just talking about graphics and different artstyles in general whether its at base level or in depth.

 

[Argentus]

@Tyaren I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.

I get what you are are explaining, and what they worked so hard on trying to do, I'm just noting it didn't really work out. Not all experiments are a success. The sprites in XIII were indeed gorgeously animated, HOWEVER we got stuff like

I know its supposed to just be that her head is tilted down, but the way its designed just makes it look like her face is centered at the bottom of her head rather than the center, making her forehead look abnormally large. To me, that looks awful.

Again, the face. It looks like her entire face is scrunched up down by the chin. Also less extremely, I miss when her old sprite would have the ponytail sway lol

Actually that's another problem the xii sprites had. The hair looked bad. Likely due to the 3d model base, the hair looked like a single solid chunk. Like look at Leona here. In her old sprite the hair was long and strands swayed as she moved. In xiii its just a short solid piece that stays static on top of her head. In the old sprites the hair was much more dynamic.




Then there's the issue if Ralf and Clark

I get that they were TRYING to go for super muscular physiques for strong guys, but its too disproportionate as well as too drastic a change so it winds up looking downright freakish. He doesn't look so much muscular, as he does look like he's covered in cancerous growths/tumors.

Someone edited Ralfs sprite to better resemble his classic design (on the left) and I feel like it looks far better than the actual xii sprite (on the right)

Its a similar situation to Sonic Boom Knuckles.

On paper I get that the idea was "strong guy needs to be big", but in practice it looks downright silly, due to the drastic change in proportions. Especially bad in his case because now the focus is on his torso rather than his fists, which goes against the entire concept of a character named KNUCKLES. Now he's too large for his own character design. Too big for his dreads to allow him to glide, and he loses the iconic boxing appearance.

Its like the difference between

and

Then there's my favorite lady, Vice, who had a combination of problems with her design.

For starters, she lost all of her bulk/muscle mass, which worked fine for Mature, but not for the premier female grappler of kof.

Compared to her classic and cvsnk sprites

She looks much much thinner, which doesn't really fit her character. Then there's also getting in to
The face has the usual problem of being situated too far down on the head but its not as noticeable for her due to the hairstyle not showing as much forehead. But the HAIR however was changed more than you'd think and it changes her entire appearance. Originally it was kind of a messy boy cut, with visible sideburns and hanging forward a bit, giving her a "wild" feeling. However the redesign trimmed it even shorter, almost making her look bald with hair simply painted on, by comparison. And the change does NOT flatter her. Plus before she had dark brown hair with light skin, whereas now she has bright red hair with dark skin. Combined with the costume change, her general color scheme is off. Now her hair matches the trim rather than the base as before. Also in a rare departure from my usual tastes, I actually prefer her dress over her suit.


On the new models, not only do they look exactly like, or worse than, certain PS2 models (seriously i can keep making image comparisons), but as others have stated, it could be easily fixed by a stylized filter. Like I feel like if they did the xiii method of making sprites from the models, but used these much better proportioned new models, it would have looked fantastic. As is, its the Wind Waker HD problem where, without the actual lighting and filters, the base models look incredibly bland.





Tyaren don't stop discussing stuff. I have nothing but respect for you and learn a lot from your posts, but I feel like you focus exclusively on the technical side of design sometimes, and forget that art is subjective. I get the impression you look at things solely as an artist and designer, but forget that's not the same way an audience/consumer sees things. Do you remember your Eliot contest entry? I remember you noting how it looks great at face value, but you mirrored the image whichade it look odd from the different perspective. Think of it like that. You're seeing the XIII sprites as intended and designed, while I'm seeing the flaws in the design and proportions.

But please don't stop discussing, by any means.