Through the Matt Ponton on Shack news stream? I watched quite a bit of it, but it was long and I skipped through a couple parts. I want to see this stream.
Community The Evolution of The Karate Master
- Thread starter Zeo
- Start date
Thanks, man. Oh, I saw it. Definitely put me in a good mood.
Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion
Well-Known Member
Hey, isn't Ein's 6P and Hayate's 9P the same technique? So does that mean that Ein might get a follow-up attack after 6P?
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Honestly speaking I'd much rather see the move scrapped/given a new animation to work with. Maybe one with him stepping forward and palming instead.
That's just my opinion.
xSA Mulatto
New Member
now we use 1p within combos....dangerous 
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
The 6p refloat really hasn't changed. It's still weaker than all the options and it's not an option on the wall. Just like Nyo's 6T into crouching state, this is a false change.
Everything is overall underwhelming. 1P and 3P are solid changes but everything else doesn't directly help his play.
Everything is overall underwhelming. 1P and 3P are solid changes but everything else doesn't directly help his play.
JAG THE GEMINI
Active Member
I never cared for 6p anyway but what about the animation of 236p!? I saw a Video and it looked ECACTLY the same. I was hoping that the animation is more like Hitomis so that the move would be a true mid!
JAG THE GEMINI
Active Member
Damn... I was really hoping for a noticable change.. Thank you nonetheless
Zeo
Well-Known Member
After finally getting this patch believe it or not I'm a bit underwhelmed. 6P is basically no different at all. 3P's neutral change is nice and 1P is a great asset but all the other buffs basically do nothing for him and a long overdue discovery took serious wind out of what was and still is the best asset of his character, but I'll get to that in the "Hidden Tech" thread.
I take back what I said about Ein being Mid. He's definitely low. Not bottom, but low, low-mid at best. He's definitely better, but still missing a good few things. However, with the netcode improvements and a good tracking high crush, a well played solid Ein can come out on top against most of the cast, unlike before, this also applies to online to some degree.
EOTKM is definitely still in effect. Ein's not near there yet. But at least he's taken his first step.
I take back what I said about Ein being Mid. He's definitely low. Not bottom, but low, low-mid at best. He's definitely better, but still missing a good few things. However, with the netcode improvements and a good tracking high crush, a well played solid Ein can come out on top against most of the cast, unlike before, this also applies to online to some degree.
EOTKM is definitely still in effect. Ein's not near there yet. But at least he's taken his first step.
JAG THE GEMINI
Active Member
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
There's a lot of untapped potential. Honestly if 9KK's hitbox was fixed so that you could combo off of it comfortably like JL's, that would have been a reasonable buff meaning you could probably set up a 1K FT off of it. So off of WR K/33K you can run 3kkk.
On that note. 9K may become a viable wake up move but also but it's not really the point of sale on this move. Even JL's isn't perfect but it's an option.
The last change is the move should be -6/-7 on block. To use it you have to commit to it and even if you commit, the 9kk flurry jails so if the block the first hit thenthey have to block the second kick, but the thing is basically if you throw out 3KKK you're committing to losing damage. And it's not just a little bit of damage loss it's basically the full combo and no 3 point damage buff will never fix that.
Slapping safety on those last two hits will make it a nice little low risk block string that only gives a good reward on NH and a low reward if you guess wrong and catch them on CH instead with the first kick. It's reasonable.
I'm also feel that 6K should receive its counter hit stun on NH. At +16 it stays less potent than Hitomi. You just can't mid k and low hold the follow ups but you also can just FT off of the follow up like Hitomi can.
Just these two changes would've made me happy.
On that note. 9K may become a viable wake up move but also but it's not really the point of sale on this move. Even JL's isn't perfect but it's an option.
The last change is the move should be -6/-7 on block. To use it you have to commit to it and even if you commit, the 9kk flurry jails so if the block the first hit thenthey have to block the second kick, but the thing is basically if you throw out 3KKK you're committing to losing damage. And it's not just a little bit of damage loss it's basically the full combo and no 3 point damage buff will never fix that.
Slapping safety on those last two hits will make it a nice little low risk block string that only gives a good reward on NH and a low reward if you guess wrong and catch them on CH instead with the first kick. It's reasonable.
I'm also feel that 6K should receive its counter hit stun on NH. At +16 it stays less potent than Hitomi. You just can't mid k and low hold the follow ups but you also can just FT off of the follow up like Hitomi can.
Just these two changes would've made me happy.
Zeo
Well-Known Member
Nothing to lose hope for. It's Dead or Alive: Last Round version 1.01. We're practically guaranteed to have future balance patches. We just need to keep pushing.Ah damn here goes all my hope again...
As far as things go right now, with not only a new tool that can be used to crush highs and clip SS but an improved netcode that actually allows for more reactability and legitimate play, Ein's in a better spot than he's ever been. Keep hope alive, that's what this topic is for.
JAG THE GEMINI
Active Member
That´s one of the reasons why i keep coming back to this forum... Always something positive and construcitve to hear from you and the other guys. I didn´t want to sound like I am not happy with the changes, after all it could have been worse, but some changes are so badly needed... But oh well nice to hear that the netcode is better. Keep it up!
Zeo
Well-Known Member
Sup guys, now that LR has gone golden and is in it's first stage of balance (Ver 1.01) this would be a good chance to re-open the EOTKM discussion and re-evaluate some things. When it was first devised Ein was a character with few pros that could notably be named. But now he...
- Is a character that can crush highs and clip SS with a good read.
- Is a character who can undoubtably keep pressure with one of the best wall oki and unholdable games if there are full walls present.
- Is a character who's multitude of GB's become usable during his wall game.
His overall gameplan has become to whiff punish opponents and lure them to the wall, get a splat and completely change the game to one that's largely in his favor no matter who he's facing on the screen. This alone changed his status (in my eyes) from bottom 3 to low tier due to their being a point available in almost any match where he can create a situation where he's in complete control. 1P and PPP buffs bring him up to low-mid (mid in the opinion of some players).
With that in mind, some of the things that were in Evolution of the Karate Master could prove to be too much considering Ein's new developments and LR buffs. I think this would be a good time to re-open discussion. http://vigaku.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-letter-reaching-out-to-team-ninja.html
For those too lazy to read through EOTKM again, I'm going to touch on some bullet points of the list that I think should be addressed and re-evaluated.
When put in retrospect for me this move regaining it's original properties would be nonsensical given his 2P game, the move's damage priority and reward and it's sheer dominance against slower characters. Nevermind it's wall splat properties. With that in mind regaining speed properties even with a NH hard knockdown would be too much.
Instead I'm proposing that it gets it's NH launch height increased to allow 1K6PK on all but heavy weights and 3P > 6KK on CH on all but heavy weights. Additionally, give it back it's force teching properties from DOA4. Maybe shave a frame or two off of it i14 or i15, but not i13.
The move I pushed for more than any other, but I realized I was fighting a losing battle and as time has passed I realized how unreasonable I was being. Since then I've re-evaluated the move and tweaked it to a more realistic type of move.
Here I propose the move and it's running variant be changed from mid kick to high kick, become jump kick holdable and speed decreased from i23 to i25. But in return, it's given tracking and guard break advantage buffed up to +6. Now it's the only holdable dragon kick in the game, but also the only one that tracks and can be followed up after wall splats.
In the case of this move I've actually elected to buff it even further. In the scheme of things it's just not useful enough of a move even if it was buffed up to +2. And with 214H+K being buffed up to +6 and turned into a high, even with the speed difference you're less inclined to use this move as your pressure high. I think it should be given another point of advantage on guard break (+3) and it's range should be buffed up to Hayate's. I don't know why Ein's has half the range to begin with.
I stand by these two moves having sit down stuns as they are where Ein should have always had his guaranteed setups and even with his LR buffs he currently has none. The change is the reduction for 8P and buff regarding 8K.
8P should remain +23 (+15 fastest SE) and guarantee only 3P and 6K. It is his fastest SDS option at i18 and should have the least reward on hit. 3P is still an absolutely amazing guaranteed followup.
8K (and 1KK) on the other hand being slower and unsafe should be buffed up to +26 (+18 fastest SE) to allow his best launchers and 8P in the case that they don't SE at fastest. Ein is still one of the only characters with no guaranteed options and he still needs them now.
Additionally, in the case of SDS, I want both of these moves to lose their wall splat property.
This paragraph rang true when I originally wrote it during EOTKM's conception. But now 6KK has the added utility of being one of Ein's primary wall oki starters and that's huge. Because of that... it doesn't necessarily need to be safe.
An SDS, Bound, additional stun to 6K, we've been around the bus talking about this string but I'm just going to be humble and say, give 6K a few more frames of delayability and a 5 point damage increase. This'll give it a bit of juice for his combos and make 6K a more respectable option.
I stand by this string even now. Ein should still get it now, as he should have gotten it in 5U. Hayate lost it, Ein needs it. Ein is the original owner of 1K, he is entitled to it's best followup.
This... is an OP gimmick. One crafted very carefully but in the scheme of things way too powerful and gimmick oriented. Even worse is that with Ein's wall oki setups, your opponents can be jailed into a horrible situation near the wall with this tool. Topping that off, we wanted it to be his Critical Burst. Making the CB a tool like this on top of it's innate property would be way too much.
I think this is excess. I wanted these moves purely because I felt Ein is entitled to them but by giving them to him, especially considering the 8K SDS would completely break them and eclipse Hitomi's versions in usefulness.
It would be nice for Ein to be better than Hitomi at something but I don't exactly think this is what it needs to be. Ein doesn't need them. He's not that type of character.
That's not everything that's in EOTKM, you all can look for yourselves but these are the things I'm going to address right now. Anyway discussion is open, I'm not going to call all the players right now but anyone is welcome to chime in. What do you think Ein needs as he is now? What should we remove and what could we potentially add?
- Is a character that can crush highs and clip SS with a good read.
- Is a character who can undoubtably keep pressure with one of the best wall oki and unholdable games if there are full walls present.
- Is a character who's multitude of GB's become usable during his wall game.
His overall gameplan has become to whiff punish opponents and lure them to the wall, get a splat and completely change the game to one that's largely in his favor no matter who he's facing on the screen. This alone changed his status (in my eyes) from bottom 3 to low tier due to their being a point available in almost any match where he can create a situation where he's in complete control. 1P and PPP buffs bring him up to low-mid (mid in the opinion of some players).
With that in mind, some of the things that were in Evolution of the Karate Master could prove to be too much considering Ein's new developments and LR buffs. I think this would be a good time to re-open discussion. http://vigaku.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-letter-reaching-out-to-team-ninja.html
For those too lazy to read through EOTKM again, I'm going to touch on some bullet points of the list that I think should be addressed and re-evaluated.
- 4K: Startup frames changed from 16 to 13F. Changed property on normal hit from launch to hard knockdown.
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Along with 6P+K, 4K at it's original speed was another core whiff punishing tool of Ein's that not only punished whiffed strikes at reasonable range, but demanded respect due to it's incredible speed and launching abilities on counter hit and in stun. The idea was a quick launching tool for guaranteed damage in exchange for less damage than all of his other launchers.
In it's current form, 4K is one of his slowest whiff punishing tools and mid kick launchers on top of doing the least damage of all mid kick launchers in his arsenal. By returning it to it's original i13 startup, faster characters are forced to respect Ein at close range and can be punished for whiffing close to him in cases where his 3P will not reach. However, with this speed increase the normal hit launch would make it a bit too dominant of a move. So it should be replaced with it's original hard knockdown from DOA4.
Additionally, at this speed it would be his only guaranteed launcher option after 8K's sit down stun (further below.)
Along with 6P+K, 4K at it's original speed was another core whiff punishing tool of Ein's that not only punished whiffed strikes at reasonable range, but demanded respect due to it's incredible speed and launching abilities on counter hit and in stun. The idea was a quick launching tool for guaranteed damage in exchange for less damage than all of his other launchers.
In it's current form, 4K is one of his slowest whiff punishing tools and mid kick launchers on top of doing the least damage of all mid kick launchers in his arsenal. By returning it to it's original i13 startup, faster characters are forced to respect Ein at close range and can be punished for whiffing close to him in cases where his 3P will not reach. However, with this speed increase the normal hit launch would make it a bit too dominant of a move. So it should be replaced with it's original hard knockdown from DOA4.
Additionally, at this speed it would be his only guaranteed launcher option after 8K's sit down stun (further below.)
When put in retrospect for me this move regaining it's original properties would be nonsensical given his 2P game, the move's damage priority and reward and it's sheer dominance against slower characters. Nevermind it's wall splat properties. With that in mind regaining speed properties even with a NH hard knockdown would be too much.
Instead I'm proposing that it gets it's NH launch height increased to allow 1K6PK on all but heavy weights and 3P > 6KK on CH on all but heavy weights. Additionally, give it back it's force teching properties from DOA4. Maybe shave a frame or two off of it i14 or i15, but not i13.
- *NEW MOVE* Added 214H+K: 23F startup, mid kick, holdable, tech jumping low crush, no tracking, 40 damage on hit, +3 guard break on block, 29 frames of recovery.
Animation is slower version of existing Back Turned 8K:
DOA5U's inclusion of Ein saw a great improvement to a tool in his arsenal that was never previously viable in matches, back turned 8K. This move which is nearly identical to Hitomi's 236K in appearance carries the unique property of a +6 guard break on block. However unlike Hitomi, Ein has never had the ability to use this move unless his back is to the opponent.
Ein has always been a character advertised as easy to use and revolving around a gameplan of quick launches for guaranteed damage and strong whiff punishing capability. He however, has also always been more of a character centered around powerful strikes as opposed to Hitomi's speed and mixups. Despite this however he lacks access to any potent guard breaking tools that don't require him to complete a string or risk showing his back to the opponent.
The addition of this move fixes this issue and gives Ein a strong guard breaking tool without negatively effecting overall game balance. The idea is his Back Turned 8K also becoming a standalone move usable in normal stance through 214H+K.
It shares the offensive properties of tech jumping frames and 29 frames of recovery but speed is reduced from i17 to i23 and guard breaking advantage is reduced from +6 from +3 for the sake of balance. As another balancing factor, due to the airborne nature of the move, Ein takes a hi counter lift stun in the event he is hit before it reaches it's active frames. It's property as an unholdable mid kick however is removed for balancing purposes.
With the addition of this move, Ein gains a powerful tool with the capability of pressuring or creating space from the opponent without deviating from his core playstyle.
Animation is slower version of existing Back Turned 8K:
DOA5U's inclusion of Ein saw a great improvement to a tool in his arsenal that was never previously viable in matches, back turned 8K. This move which is nearly identical to Hitomi's 236K in appearance carries the unique property of a +6 guard break on block. However unlike Hitomi, Ein has never had the ability to use this move unless his back is to the opponent.
Ein has always been a character advertised as easy to use and revolving around a gameplan of quick launches for guaranteed damage and strong whiff punishing capability. He however, has also always been more of a character centered around powerful strikes as opposed to Hitomi's speed and mixups. Despite this however he lacks access to any potent guard breaking tools that don't require him to complete a string or risk showing his back to the opponent.
The addition of this move fixes this issue and gives Ein a strong guard breaking tool without negatively effecting overall game balance. The idea is his Back Turned 8K also becoming a standalone move usable in normal stance through 214H+K.
It shares the offensive properties of tech jumping frames and 29 frames of recovery but speed is reduced from i17 to i23 and guard breaking advantage is reduced from +6 from +3 for the sake of balance. As another balancing factor, due to the airborne nature of the move, Ein takes a hi counter lift stun in the event he is hit before it reaches it's active frames. It's property as an unholdable mid kick however is removed for balancing purposes.
With the addition of this move, Ein gains a powerful tool with the capability of pressuring or creating space from the opponent without deviating from his core playstyle.
Here I propose the move and it's running variant be changed from mid kick to high kick, become jump kick holdable and speed decreased from i23 to i25. But in return, it's given tracking and guard break advantage buffed up to +6. Now it's the only holdable dragon kick in the game, but also the only one that tracks and can be followed up after wall splats.
- 46K: Advantage on guard break changed from +1 to +2.
This move is currently shared between both Ein and Hayate (236K in Hayate's case) and both share the same property of a +1 guard break on block. However being a character with superior speed and mixup ability, Hayate is able to take more advantage of his version of the move. In addition his version has increased range and utility through space coverage and even allows him to jump over downed opponents for increased wakeup game capabilities and overall okizeme.
Ein is incapable of these things as the range on his version is much shorter (and riskier) and he is not able to take as much advantage of the +1 as his ninja counterpart. On top of that, with 2P being a much faster and more reliable option for the same frame advantage advantage, there is no real reason to risk throwing out a linear 20 frame high kick as the reward on either hit or guard is generally not worth it.
By adding an extra point of advantage you are compensating for the shortcomings of Ein's version of the move and allowing him more freedom to mix up his opponent after the attack has been blocked. Inc onclusion, he is rewarded for his trouble and it's risk/reward becomes more balanced and unique to his character.
This move is currently shared between both Ein and Hayate (236K in Hayate's case) and both share the same property of a +1 guard break on block. However being a character with superior speed and mixup ability, Hayate is able to take more advantage of his version of the move. In addition his version has increased range and utility through space coverage and even allows him to jump over downed opponents for increased wakeup game capabilities and overall okizeme.
Ein is incapable of these things as the range on his version is much shorter (and riskier) and he is not able to take as much advantage of the +1 as his ninja counterpart. On top of that, with 2P being a much faster and more reliable option for the same frame advantage advantage, there is no real reason to risk throwing out a linear 20 frame high kick as the reward on either hit or guard is generally not worth it.
By adding an extra point of advantage you are compensating for the shortcomings of Ein's version of the move and allowing him more freedom to mix up his opponent after the attack has been blocked. Inc onclusion, he is rewarded for his trouble and it's risk/reward becomes more balanced and unique to his character.
- 8P:Counter hit and in stun property changed to +23 sit down stun. Normal hit property changed from +26 sit down stun to +23 sit down stun.
Animation:
Another property of Ein's that was taken away in 5U was 8P causing a sit down stun to his opponents if the move was landed on counter hit.
By adding this property back into Ein's moveset with DOA5U's new mechanics, 8P becomes Ein's new and primary source of guaranteed damage. It's +26 however is decreased to +23 as guaranteeing 33K would result in a bit too much quick damage. 3P and 4K would remain guaranteed options as with 8K's sit down stun.
Despite 8P's quick speed and potential sit down stun's scary properties, the guaranteed damage is reasonable and matched by most of the cast and of course, the unsafety and linearity of the move would be kept in tact.
8P's current bound property (and followup juggle) would still however, be applied to post critical burst situations and of course, if the move itself was used twice.
- 8K, 1KK, 6H+KK4K, Back Turned 4K, 4PPK, 4P2KK: - Changed counter hit and in stun property to +23 sit down stun. (Currently this property is exclusive to normal hit)
Animation:
Given that Ein has no flexibility in his stun game options we find it appropriate to change 8K into a sit down stun. This would allow him an efficient way to get some guaranteed damage as well as blitz to the threshold for CB/Launch/Throw mixups.
It would not replace his other mid kicks because 33K still has use as a stun > launch option and is faster. In most cases Ein's other mid kick launchers are more efficient than 8K on a opponent that is stagger escaping so they would have use in those situations while 8K would be a strong option after his deep stuns. Considering he does not have many of those this move is not a threat to balance. This change also applies to all strings that end with 8K.
The drawback and balancing factor of this move is that like it's current normal hit counterpart, it has a large degree of pushback which enables it to only be used at close ranges in order to guarantee followups if the opponent slow escapes.
Animation:
Another property of Ein's that was taken away in 5U was 8P causing a sit down stun to his opponents if the move was landed on counter hit.
By adding this property back into Ein's moveset with DOA5U's new mechanics, 8P becomes Ein's new and primary source of guaranteed damage. It's +26 however is decreased to +23 as guaranteeing 33K would result in a bit too much quick damage. 3P and 4K would remain guaranteed options as with 8K's sit down stun.
Despite 8P's quick speed and potential sit down stun's scary properties, the guaranteed damage is reasonable and matched by most of the cast and of course, the unsafety and linearity of the move would be kept in tact.
8P's current bound property (and followup juggle) would still however, be applied to post critical burst situations and of course, if the move itself was used twice.
- 8K, 1KK, 6H+KK4K, Back Turned 4K, 4PPK, 4P2KK: - Changed counter hit and in stun property to +23 sit down stun. (Currently this property is exclusive to normal hit)
Animation:
Given that Ein has no flexibility in his stun game options we find it appropriate to change 8K into a sit down stun. This would allow him an efficient way to get some guaranteed damage as well as blitz to the threshold for CB/Launch/Throw mixups.
It would not replace his other mid kicks because 33K still has use as a stun > launch option and is faster. In most cases Ein's other mid kick launchers are more efficient than 8K on a opponent that is stagger escaping so they would have use in those situations while 8K would be a strong option after his deep stuns. Considering he does not have many of those this move is not a threat to balance. This change also applies to all strings that end with 8K.
The drawback and balancing factor of this move is that like it's current normal hit counterpart, it has a large degree of pushback which enables it to only be used at close ranges in order to guarantee followups if the opponent slow escapes.
8P should remain +23 (+15 fastest SE) and guarantee only 3P and 6K. It is his fastest SDS option at i18 and should have the least reward on hit. 3P is still an absolutely amazing guaranteed followup.
8K (and 1KK) on the other hand being slower and unsafe should be buffed up to +26 (+18 fastest SE) to allow his best launchers and 8P in the case that they don't SE at fastest. Ein is still one of the only characters with no guaranteed options and he still needs them now.
Additionally, in the case of SDS, I want both of these moves to lose their wall splat property.
- 6KK: Changed frames on block from -11 to -6.
Ein has a variety of unsafe pokes, most of which consist of attack string finishers, but one thing they all have in common is a reasonable reward on hit. 6KK does a meager 35 damage on counter hit (17 if the first hit connected) and causes a hard knockdown.
The damage on reward for the move is beaten by the damage Ein takes if he is punished if there is no wall or breakable object present which brings the unsafety of the move into question. Nevermind that it can be sidestepped. A linear poke with such little reward and no mixup capability should not carry such a huge risk if it's blocked.
Ein has a variety of unsafe pokes, most of which consist of attack string finishers, but one thing they all have in common is a reasonable reward on hit. 6KK does a meager 35 damage on counter hit (17 if the first hit connected) and causes a hard knockdown.
The damage on reward for the move is beaten by the damage Ein takes if he is punished if there is no wall or breakable object present which brings the unsafety of the move into question. Nevermind that it can be sidestepped. A linear poke with such little reward and no mixup capability should not carry such a huge risk if it's blocked.
An SDS, Bound, additional stun to 6K, we've been around the bus talking about this string but I'm just going to be humble and say, give 6K a few more frames of delayability and a 5 point damage increase. This'll give it a bit of juice for his combos and make 6K a more respectable option.
- *NEW STRING* Added 1K2K: 1K transition into low sweep. All hit and block properties taken from Hayate's PP2KK.
Animation:
Ein does not have many good ways to approach or start an offense. We believe this string will provide a nice option for players that dominate the footsies war by allowing them to come in with some frame advantage or a counter hit knockdown assuming 1K stuns on counter hit.
In addition with the inclusion of a low tracking option to 1K, fuzzy guarding becomes an issue for the opponent and the mid followups to 1K become more threatening.
Hayate lost this string in DOA5 so we believe it is appropriate for Ein to recieve it.
Animation:
Ein does not have many good ways to approach or start an offense. We believe this string will provide a nice option for players that dominate the footsies war by allowing them to come in with some frame advantage or a counter hit knockdown assuming 1K stuns on counter hit.
In addition with the inclusion of a low tracking option to 1K, fuzzy guarding becomes an issue for the opponent and the mid followups to 1K become more threatening.
Hayate lost this string in DOA5 so we believe it is appropriate for Ein to recieve it.
P+KP:Fully charged frames changed from i36 to i27, Advantage on GB changed from +9 to +5.
*NEW PROPERTY* Added charge feint: Press H any time during P+KP charge to launch a fast recovering feint instead of the guard break on the 27th frame. 15F recovery on charge feint.
Currently the charge is far too slow to use against even intermediate players. A speed increase is necessary in order improve overall viability of the move as currently it demands absolutely no respect from the opponent and Ein can be sidestepped, held on reaction, counter hit or thrown before the charge even finishes. Frame advantage reduction is applied to balance out the decreased charge speed. The charge feint is there for players with superb reactions and allow the Ein player mixup options.
Detailed Explanation of P+KP:A fact few players know is that currently P+K jails on block, creating a situation where the opponent cannot hold, sidestep or strike until a certain frame of P+KP's charge (with P+K at -7 on block currently, they cannot act until the 23rd frame), with P+K at -9 the opponent would not be able to sidestep, hold or strike until the 21st frame of what would become a 27 frame charge.
This removes the option of striking Ein during the charge but due to the linearity of the mid punch, sidestepping as well as mid punch holding become reliable options to stop or counter the punch on reaction. The charge feint, at a solid 15 frame recovery gives the Ein player frame advantage if the opponent decided to hold during their 6 frame window of the charge and the opportunity to recover and block if they used a sidestep attack instead.
However it carries the risk of Ein being punished if the opponent waited for the feint cancel or chose a powerful strike during the charge in anticipation of the feint.
For a better visual understanding, the move would act like a more flexible variation of Vanilla DOA5 Gen Fu's Senpo charge punch and feint.
Examples:
*NEW PROPERTY* Added charge feint: Press H any time during P+KP charge to launch a fast recovering feint instead of the guard break on the 27th frame. 15F recovery on charge feint.
Currently the charge is far too slow to use against even intermediate players. A speed increase is necessary in order improve overall viability of the move as currently it demands absolutely no respect from the opponent and Ein can be sidestepped, held on reaction, counter hit or thrown before the charge even finishes. Frame advantage reduction is applied to balance out the decreased charge speed. The charge feint is there for players with superb reactions and allow the Ein player mixup options.
Detailed Explanation of P+KP:A fact few players know is that currently P+K jails on block, creating a situation where the opponent cannot hold, sidestep or strike until a certain frame of P+KP's charge (with P+K at -7 on block currently, they cannot act until the 23rd frame), with P+K at -9 the opponent would not be able to sidestep, hold or strike until the 21st frame of what would become a 27 frame charge.
This removes the option of striking Ein during the charge but due to the linearity of the mid punch, sidestepping as well as mid punch holding become reliable options to stop or counter the punch on reaction. The charge feint, at a solid 15 frame recovery gives the Ein player frame advantage if the opponent decided to hold during their 6 frame window of the charge and the opportunity to recover and block if they used a sidestep attack instead.
However it carries the risk of Ein being punished if the opponent waited for the feint cancel or chose a powerful strike during the charge in anticipation of the feint.
For a better visual understanding, the move would act like a more flexible variation of Vanilla DOA5 Gen Fu's Senpo charge punch and feint.
Examples:
*NEW STRING* Added 4P2KK: All hit and block properties of Ein's 4P and 1KK, respectively.
Animation (Only for example, Ein 4P does not share Hitomi 8P properties on normal hit):
Originally added to Hitomi exclusively (as 8P2KK), this is a fairly basic attack string that should also be given to Ein considering his potential new 8K properties. Out of all the evolutions of his attack strings that have been given to Hitomi this is one of the most basic versions that make the most sense given his character type and gives him another normal hit and counter hit mixup without changing any aspect of his character. Further enhanced by the superior properties of Ein's 4P on normal hit.
*NEW STRING* Added 4PPK: All hit and block properties of Ein's 4PP and 8K, respectively.
Animation:
Another new string that was given to Hitomi in the original DOA5, this and the string listed before it represent the most basic of mixup tools from 4P that would be most suited to Ein. Not only are these mixups very simple by design to implement and make the most sense but Ein in particular would benefit more from the string itself due to the superior normal hit properties of his 4P and 8K which would force the opponent into a must hold situation on any hit should 4P connect.
These strings add an extra layer of mixup and reward to one of Ein's only tracking tools through mid kick finishers but are kept balanced by the unsafety of 8K's on block properties and their shared linearity with the mix punch finishers. Ein needs these strings to evolve as a character.
Animation (Only for example, Ein 4P does not share Hitomi 8P properties on normal hit):
Originally added to Hitomi exclusively (as 8P2KK), this is a fairly basic attack string that should also be given to Ein considering his potential new 8K properties. Out of all the evolutions of his attack strings that have been given to Hitomi this is one of the most basic versions that make the most sense given his character type and gives him another normal hit and counter hit mixup without changing any aspect of his character. Further enhanced by the superior properties of Ein's 4P on normal hit.
*NEW STRING* Added 4PPK: All hit and block properties of Ein's 4PP and 8K, respectively.
Animation:
Another new string that was given to Hitomi in the original DOA5, this and the string listed before it represent the most basic of mixup tools from 4P that would be most suited to Ein. Not only are these mixups very simple by design to implement and make the most sense but Ein in particular would benefit more from the string itself due to the superior normal hit properties of his 4P and 8K which would force the opponent into a must hold situation on any hit should 4P connect.
These strings add an extra layer of mixup and reward to one of Ein's only tracking tools through mid kick finishers but are kept balanced by the unsafety of 8K's on block properties and their shared linearity with the mix punch finishers. Ein needs these strings to evolve as a character.
It would be nice for Ein to be better than Hitomi at something but I don't exactly think this is what it needs to be. Ein doesn't need them. He's not that type of character.
That's not everything that's in EOTKM, you all can look for yourselves but these are the things I'm going to address right now. Anyway discussion is open, I'm not going to call all the players right now but anyone is welcome to chime in. What do you think Ein needs as he is now? What should we remove and what could we potentially add?
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
@Zeo You know me.
6K - I believe this move should receive its CH stun on NH as well. The reason why is it would give some more utility to his as a counter poke while not overtaking Hitomi.
It still is 13i just like hers but instead of going high/low, it goes mid. This makes it reasonable for the follow up to be unsafe. Sure Hitomi has the ability to follow up with a string into launcher but that's fine. Ours cannot be low held out of.
3K and 4K - I want this one to receive a 1 frame increase on its stun to allow follow ups with 14i moves and at that I would leave 4K at 14i with his current launch heights still in tact. I mean don't get me wrong, I would love to see his DOA4 set ups for 4K but honestly the heights are fine right now.
6P+K. I believe this needs no explanation. 14i. P+K as the new CB or a new CB in general as 2P+K.
1KK/4P2KK/6H+KK4K
I believe these should all guard break for -2/+1. Also on that note I believe he should receive a new string pp4k which would go straight into it.
Another possibility is making it slightly faster on no charge and chargeable for the plus. This would result in it still being -8 uncharged.
They could basically change the reward as well. On no charge it could be the same old launch or maybe even a bound that he can follow up with 1k6pk and hopefully they can keep it low enough so that 66kkk isn't viable. I want it to be tame without the charge.
On full charge it could sit down which at that point would warrant the sit down on this move. On that note to make it easier to follow up on, he could receive the kneel on one knee sit down stun to keep them in place and make it +16 on highest SE so that he can only get 4K, then 1k6pk. The damage increase for charging it should be minimal so as to not upset the natural order of stun game. We're looking to give him a free launch. Not a free CB. So it should still require him to CB in three.
At max threshold it should launch. If no charge, the simple 4h+K, 1k6pk should be available. Full charge should launch well enough to give him WR K, 66kkk/WR K, 6K, 6KK.
Now I know this is stepping HEAVILY forward which is why I left it unsafe and only a bound on no charge. Hopefully the bound can be set to only allow 1k6pk max.
9kk/3kkk should have to hitbox increased and be made semi safe on block at -6. This way he can use it in juggles. Hopefully it can be fixed to set up for a free 2p for oki or 1k. The reason I suggest -6 on block is because there's no utility in 3kkk. It doesn't relaunch and the string jails on block so you can't bait CH with it, plus it's high.
If you use the full string, you're commiting to it, and if you catch them on CH with 9KK/3K(KK), you lose your entire juggle. I think -7 at least is reasonable.
3H+K, what can I say, my ideas die hard but if the chargeable 8K isn't an option then I'd like to see this move come into play In a different way, but let's assume it does. Well this move would simply be a low crushing guard break. On hit it would just knockdown.
8P? Eh I'd accept the damage increase. His mid punch launch damage isn't necessarily bad. A few more points would be fine.
So... Thoughts?
6K - I believe this move should receive its CH stun on NH as well. The reason why is it would give some more utility to his as a counter poke while not overtaking Hitomi.
It still is 13i just like hers but instead of going high/low, it goes mid. This makes it reasonable for the follow up to be unsafe. Sure Hitomi has the ability to follow up with a string into launcher but that's fine. Ours cannot be low held out of.
3K and 4K - I want this one to receive a 1 frame increase on its stun to allow follow ups with 14i moves and at that I would leave 4K at 14i with his current launch heights still in tact. I mean don't get me wrong, I would love to see his DOA4 set ups for 4K but honestly the heights are fine right now.
6P+K. I believe this needs no explanation. 14i. P+K as the new CB or a new CB in general as 2P+K.
1KK/4P2KK/6H+KK4K
I believe these should all guard break for -2/+1. Also on that note I believe he should receive a new string pp4k which would go straight into it.
Another possibility is making it slightly faster on no charge and chargeable for the plus. This would result in it still being -8 uncharged.
They could basically change the reward as well. On no charge it could be the same old launch or maybe even a bound that he can follow up with 1k6pk and hopefully they can keep it low enough so that 66kkk isn't viable. I want it to be tame without the charge.
On full charge it could sit down which at that point would warrant the sit down on this move. On that note to make it easier to follow up on, he could receive the kneel on one knee sit down stun to keep them in place and make it +16 on highest SE so that he can only get 4K, then 1k6pk. The damage increase for charging it should be minimal so as to not upset the natural order of stun game. We're looking to give him a free launch. Not a free CB. So it should still require him to CB in three.
At max threshold it should launch. If no charge, the simple 4h+K, 1k6pk should be available. Full charge should launch well enough to give him WR K, 66kkk/WR K, 6K, 6KK.
Now I know this is stepping HEAVILY forward which is why I left it unsafe and only a bound on no charge. Hopefully the bound can be set to only allow 1k6pk max.
9kk/3kkk should have to hitbox increased and be made semi safe on block at -6. This way he can use it in juggles. Hopefully it can be fixed to set up for a free 2p for oki or 1k. The reason I suggest -6 on block is because there's no utility in 3kkk. It doesn't relaunch and the string jails on block so you can't bait CH with it, plus it's high.
If you use the full string, you're commiting to it, and if you catch them on CH with 9KK/3K(KK), you lose your entire juggle. I think -7 at least is reasonable.
3H+K, what can I say, my ideas die hard but if the chargeable 8K isn't an option then I'd like to see this move come into play In a different way, but let's assume it does. Well this move would simply be a low crushing guard break. On hit it would just knockdown.
8P? Eh I'd accept the damage increase. His mid punch launch damage isn't necessarily bad. A few more points would be fine.
So... Thoughts?
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JAG THE GEMINI
Active Member
In short, I still think the most important changes are a faster 4K again, a 46K with a better blockstung(+3) and 1K2K.
Ein imo needs those things desperately to be really competitive. But I did not test out the "new" DOA5 LR Ein stuff so I may underestimate him a bit... But I don´t think so.
Ein imo needs those things desperately to be really competitive. But I did not test out the "new" DOA5 LR Ein stuff so I may underestimate him a bit... But I don´t think so.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
8K SDS. +16 Fastest.
3P+K - New move that is his CB if they dont want to make P+K the new CB.
Better advantage on 46K or better range. I would prefer better range.
8P NH damage increased to 25. A launcher should not be doing poke damage.
A balanced 14i 6P+K.
A high into mid string that is delayable. Preferably into his 3P.
1K2K.
Any one of these is fine. I don't need all of them just give me at least one from this list.
3P+K - New move that is his CB if they dont want to make P+K the new CB.
Better advantage on 46K or better range. I would prefer better range.
8P NH damage increased to 25. A launcher should not be doing poke damage.
A balanced 14i 6P+K.
A high into mid string that is delayable. Preferably into his 3P.
1K2K.
Any one of these is fine. I don't need all of them just give me at least one from this list.