DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

Crext

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This is an estimation and discussion thread regarding the tier list of DoA5U, like its spiritual predecessor.

This list contains a combination of the Match-up rating discussion estimates at different corners of our community, and it must be underlined that one do not claim that this is final or something to be slapped as official at its current stage. These are simply estimates that we as a community has put forth thus far, and some with very little discussion or evaluation/second look at current stage. Thus it should not be taken as scientific fact, or otherwise be used as proof. It is simply put forwards for those of us which want to debate it further.

You can locate the collected data as a Google Spreadsheet here.

It is incomplete, but could still be viewed as an interesting piece of work in regards for further discussion here at the forums. It was last updated 16.November.2014.

The current United States tiers for DOA5 Ultimate are as follows:
S - Christie (+31)
A - Gen Fu (+21), Ayane (+16), Kasumi (+13)
B - Helena (+11), Leifang (+10), Hayate (+9), Pai (+9), Momiji (+6), Lisa (+5), Leon, (+3), Hayabusa (+2), Sarah (+2), Rig (+1), Akira (±0) Jacky (±0)
C - Alpha 152 (-1), Mila (-1), Zack (-2), Marie Rose (-3), Bayman (-4), Hitomi (-5), Jann Lee (-5), Rachel (-5), Tina (-5), Phase 4 (-8), Bass (-11), Ein (-11)
D - Kokoro (-15), Nyotengu (-15), Brad (-17)
E - Eliot (-28)

The current Japanese tiers for DOA5 Last Round are as follows:
S - Hayate, Ayane, Gen Fu
A+ - Kasumi, Hayabusa, Akira
A - Helena, Christie, Mila
B+ - Hitomi, Zack, Rig, Jann Lee, Bayman, Kokoro, Leifang, Lisa
B - Tina, Leon, Sarah, Rachel, Momiji, Phase 4, Raidou, Bass, Brad
C+ - Eliot, Ein, Jacky, Pai
C - Nyotengu, Marie Rose
D - Honoka, Alpha-152

It seems a lot of people on this forum are missing the point of tier lists. A lot of people don't like them because they feel that they discourage adaptation or treat competition as overly formulaic. Despite one's philosophy, match ups are a real thing and an integral part of the meta in fighting games. No one can safely say what the tier list is for a game until years into it's life span.

Here's a breakdown on what each ratio means. If someone else already provided this on another post I will delete this and quote there's.

6:4 / 4:6

This is, in fact, a very equal match up. The only time you will ever really notice the match up difference is when both players are truly of equal skill level. Even then it is winnable for either side. A 6-4 can be caused by any number of factors from one character just being overall better than the other or it could be a specific situation like a mix up that doesn't work or works only in this match up.

7:3 / 3:7
This is when a match up becomes noticeably slanted in one's favor. Even when the two players aren't perfectly even but still on the same level you will see that one character holds an advantage over the other. If the two players are about even with each other the "3" needs a little luck on top of being on point with their game. Because of this, 7-3's are often considered controversial (if we dare use that word) as they stir up a lot of differing opinions. 7-3's exist in virtually every fighting game out there.

8:2 / 2:8
There is no question that this match up is unbalanced. Usually there is one specific reason for this 8:2 in addition to lots of other examples. No one with any sense will question that this match up is unfair but to what extent is often debated. This is the first ratio that is often seen as impossible or highly improbable in a tournament setting where the players may be competing in long sets where getting consistent wins is essential.

9:1 / 1:9
This ratio exists usually not just because of a specific situation or a number of situations but a design flaw by the developers. Some opinion's say that 10-0's default to this since, "you can't put a 10-0 on paper". These are rare in competitive fighting games. Basically the "1" might as well just put the controller down. In short, DoA5 has no 9-1's though I figured I would mention it for the sake of discussion.

In addition to the above, "half points" exist in which aspects of the above and below ratio are true to a certain extent. 5.5 and 6.5 are commonly seen in games that have been around for a few years. During a game's infancy it's too specific a number to have the clarity to apply.

Old data: http://www.freestepdodge.com/thread...live-5-tier-list-with-discussion-thread.2082/

Thank you, and I hope for some fruitful debate to expand upon the list further.
 
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Crext

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Edited in after question about general approaches.

As P1naatt1ke1tt0 mentions, that is the end result and theoretical "approach". 6-4 means that equally skilled players at the highest level would out trade each other 60-40 after playing 100 matches. Now, as we all know this may not be as simple as people are after all discovering new tech, or got other random elements pushing the equation and so on. Thus it quickly becomes a social science, where one must mix facts with some degree of subjectivity in order to get anything.

The steps usually follows:

1. A person who mains or play a specific character a lot supply his perceived match-up rating.

If it is based of one feedback only it is perceived as weak, and any other feedback in other match-up discussions would trump it, or slide it towards the middle of none-agreements (depending on how strong that other MU has been discussed).

2. From this a discussion usually follows, with new recommendations for the MU-scoring.

Specific match-ups people disagree with the scoring for are discussed as for investigating tools or options that may have been neglected and so on.
Here one usually challenge the specific tools one have towards each other, provide frame data, crushes, certain approaches of interest and in general contribute towards the "facts" for reaching understanding for those viewpoints. Unless there is an agreement the share numbers of sympathizers for a certain setups would determine what score is given, unless the MU-of the counter party has been discussed in great detail and found it agreeable towards the minority vote.


However, this is how it may be viewed in the short term. In the long term one has to consider the following:

3. Relevance lost over time or patches.

Generally, the newer MU or feedbacks trumps older ones for several reasons. First of the longer the current patch has been played, the more tricks has been exposed and been accustomed towards. Generally once one move over to a new patch the game changes, thus the newer is perceived as better and would most likely be taken into consideration until someone voice disagreement. The old data will then only be perceived as relevant until we got some new inputs, where older data is viewed as worse than "1 feedback only"-data.

Also, it is not always easy to gain a discussion with people who was at the forums 1/2 year ago. Unless a discussion follows it would then fall in the category of "1 feedback only"-data, or "weak" (which is better than nothing, by all means).

4. It will probably never be a complete project.


There will always be a certain error because of the degree of subjectivity. Also no one is equally good, and the mind games will always impact the game as well. Thus this would not be a fact based science and the MUs and the following tier list should not be interpreted as universally correct, and only an estimation for what the community as a whole believe to be true, collectively.


5. General go at it on an individual level.

Different feedbacks may have different degree of credibility. This is normally shown in the discussion part, as if one of the parties only supplies numbers but don't involve themselves in the following discussion. Normally the way to think about it is "in all the different scenarios, what options do one have towards the other character?" and in sum, what character would statistically win assuming equal skill and understanding (at the top level)?
An easy way to view this is to think a mirror match. A mirror match would always be 5-5, but even so characters may have certain advantages depending on if they are at frame advantages and so on. If you then take all the scenarios you view as points of interest in a mirror match, and replace it with a different character, then who would you view the odds of being in favor for overall?


The points of interest then may comes down to (example case of thinking)

Neutral game:
- Spacing

- Effect of success
- Probability of success
- CQC (Close Quarter Combat)
- Effect of success
- Probability of success
- Approach techniques
- Effect of success
- Probability of success
Frame advantage:
- Odds of getting it (linked to the neutral game)

- Damage output.
- Mix-up options. (Probability of successful rotation)

Frame disadvantage:
- Defensive options

- Damage output
- Effect

Other:
- Special cases



This is just one way to approach the MU, and may depend on the nature of the character as not everyone fit an A4 standard.

As an example case I can "argue" with myself at Christie vs Hitomi.

Neutral game, 50-50.
- Christie has more of an upper hand up close, but Hitomi make up for it in some better spacing game. All in all they are not great advantages either and even each other out.

At frame advantage, 60-40.
- Christie's options are more at the cost of only slightly less damage. She has a higher chance of gaining deep stun and generally starts of with frame advantage as she is much quicker than Hitomi. However, Hitomi has the potential of never stopping at frame advantage and do decent poke damage with 6t and low kicks. In other words if she first manages to gain the frame advantage she could potentially never let go. This also increase the possibility of gaining a deep stun once she has the frame advantage as it forces to opponent to react.

At frame disadvantage 40-60.
- Hitomi has advanced holds and parry. Her advanced holds in general do more damage if successful. However what really tip this in Hitomi's favor is that her parry gives her that big effect frame advantage. Also Christie's usually go to moves are either high punch or mid punch, making the possibility for success decent or at least limiting on Christie's normal play.

Total: 50-50.


In arguments one may go even further into detail, like stating
Neutral game up close (start of battle)

Christie
High punch 9 frames vs 10 frame high Hitomi
High kick 13 frames vs irrelevant
Mid Punch 11 Frame midpunch vs Hitomi's 13 frame
Mid Kick 12 frame kick (crush high?) vs Hitomi's 13 frame
Both have 14 frame low punch (even trade?)
Special note: Hitomi can parry both high and midpunch.

Judged from this
Christie's possibility to succeed with High p is >75% if they trade blows.
Christie's possibility to succeed with High k is 0% if they trade blows.
Christie's possibility to succeed with Mid punch is >75% if they trade blows.
Christie's possibility to succeed with Mid kick is 100% if they trade blows.
Christie's possibility to succeed with Low punch is >25% if they trade blows.

So, this is the odds "if they trade blows". Judged from this Christie clearly has some good opening options against Hitomi. However, if both characters know the numbers, they'll also see that Christie's options quickly boil down to mid or high punch, or unsafe mid kick. Thus the opening option has a high possibility to be throw punished on block after opener, or can be punch parried.

Thus Hitomi can neutralize 2 options in 1 with punchparry, or block mid k for throw punish or even block for later punchparry upon reaction. It then becomes and option of mind reading.

Of course, the Christie player could also know this, then the option could very well be to throw.

All in all though, Christie players would most likely either attack or throw. Holding is less attractive as they'll have to guess between 4 options, as with striking their odds (if they guess Hitomi will strike) may be 75~100%. Hitomi's case the 3 "real" opening options for Christie may boil down to 2 with punchparry, where the mid k hold may also be an advanced hold, in other words if one guess right (50% chance), the dmg done will be good. However, the option of throwing for Hitomi is low, as Christie would most likely not hold or block.


End note:
When that is said "people" won't or can't think this straight forward on the different MU's as certain MU's the spacing may becomes slightly more irrelevant, the overall trades is very complex and so on. In conclusion it is like P1naatt mentions, that you just have to see overall what the different options between the characters are, and make a sum of all the different scenarios to get an estimate as for in who's favor the balance is tipping.
 
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Brute

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Some of the listed Ryu MUs still puzzle me.
 
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Crext

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Well, all of these mentions needs an update in the form of a match-up rating. Feel free to come up with some. :)
 

Brute

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Well, looking at Ryu's MUs, my personal insight would be:

Akira: 6-4 Ryu
Bayman: 5-5 or 6-4 Ryu
Christie: 6-4 Christie
Hayate: at least 5-5
Helena: 4-6 Helena
Pai: 4-6 Pai
Rachel: Possibly 6-4 Ryu
Tina: Possibly 6-4 Ryu
Zack: 5-5 or Possibly 4-6 Zack
 

Crext

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Well, looking at Ryu's MUs, my personal insight would be:

Akira: 6-4 Ryu
Bayman: 5-5 or 6-4 Ryu
Christie: 6-4 Christie
Hayate: at least 5-5
Helena: 4-6 Helena
Pai: 4-6 Pai
Rachel: Possibly 6-4 Ryu
Tina: Possibly 6-4 Ryu
Zack: 5-5 or Possibly 4-6 Zack

Go for the whole list! :D
I believe in you!

If not I'll just interpret it as the rest is fine of the old?
 
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Brute

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Go for the whole list! :D
I believe in you!

If not I'll just interpret it as the rest is fine of the old?
In regards to Ryu, if I didn't make a mention of the match-up, I'm okay with what was already listed. I guess some I might tip a teeny bit and others I don't feel knowledgeable enough on the opponent to give input, but overall I'm fine with them.

With respect to MUs that don't involve Ryu, that would be outside my area of expertise.
 

Crext

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Alrighty, well any piece of updated knowledge is better than none. I think Master would want to look over it later anyways, so in regards to Ryu we'd get some verification so don't worry about any statements! :p
 

Brute

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Alrighty, well any piece of updated knowledge is better than none. I think Master would want to look over it later anyways, so in regards to Ryu we'd get some verification so don't worry about any statements! :p
Master would be the go-to guy for it, no doubt. This is just my personal analysis given my experience and knowledge of the characters' tools.
 

AkaShocka

Well-Known Member
I have my personal opinions on my Lisa MUs

Kokoro: 6-4 Lisa's favor
Eliot: 6-4 Lisa's favor
Tina: 5-5
Helena: I don't know about anyone but this is for sure in Helena's favor but not TOTALLY in her favor. Lia's low OH shuts down a lot of Helena's tools from BKO and Lisa has useful lows and true mids the can hit Helena even in the bokuho duck. This is probably 6-4 Helena's favor.
Pai: Eeeeeehhhh. I'm not too sure here. I would say its the same as Helena but I'm not too positive.
Ryu: 5-5. Let me explain this one. Due to her BT shenanigans, Lisa can really fuck with Ryu's head. She can alos go in and out of stances and mix him up. She has a good freestep also which can evade his teleport things. She can crush his moves, high or low. Ryu seems to be straight forward. His high are straight highs and his lows are straight lows. In other words, she can crush him fairly easy. Her 1p and 1k can crush a lot of his highs and 9k, 6h+k can crush his lows.
I believe this two are even in spacing or at least very close. I find this a even MU because as I said she can crush him, he can easily do the same to her.
 

Brute

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Ryu: 5-5. Let me explain this one. Due to her BT shenanigans, Lisa can really fuck with Ryu's head. She can alos go in and out of stances and mix him up. She has a good freestep also which can evade his teleport things. She can crush his moves, high or low. Ryu seems to be straight forward. His high are straight highs and his lows are straight lows. In other words, she can crush him fairly easy. Her 1p and 1k can crush a lot of his highs and 9k, 6h+k can crush his lows.
I believe this two are even in spacing or at least very close. I find this a even MU because as I said she can crush him, he can easily do the same to her.
It's a weird one because both are fairly good at shutting down each others' spacing options. I could go on forever, but things like Lisa's 4H+K shut down most ongyoin options, whereas Ryu're ongyoin 6P+K and teleports are great punishes for Lisa's different agility moves. Lisa has good low pokes, even from BT that can negate the ongyoin parry, and can avoid Izuna holds with her numerous kicks. Ryu has great throws to counter her OHs, and his movement can be used to corner her in on environmental hazards.

Unless there's something I'm missing, I'm actually quite confident it's 5-5.
 

AkaShocka

Well-Known Member
It's a weird one because both are fairly good at shutting down each others' spacing options. I could go on forever, but things like Lisa's 4H+K shut down most ongyoin options, whereas Ryu're ongyoin 6P+K and teleports are great punishes for Lisa's different agility moves. Lisa has good low pokes, even from BT that can negate the ongyoin parry, and can avoid Izuna holds with her numerous kicks. Ryu has great throws to counter her OHs, and his movement can be used to corner her in on environmental hazards.

Unless there's something I'm missing, I'm actually quite confident it's 5-5.
Exactly. They both have pretty much the same stuff: spacing, multiple stances, both have a fair share of unreasonable bullshit XD
I know he can throw her into environmental hazards but she can do the same also with her 44T. But Lisa does have one issue, she has throws that can put her in bad situations. Like her BT 6t, I've pinned myself to a wall with that before, not pretty when Helena starts raping you in the corner. I don't think Ryu can put himself in those problems, he probably can but I really haven't seen it.
 

Brute

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Exactly. They both have pretty much the same stuff: spacing, multiple stances, both have a fair share of unreasonable bullshit XD
I know he can throw her into environmental hazards but she can do the same also with her 44T. But Lisa does have one issue, she has throws that can put her in bad situations. Like her BT 6t, I've pinned myself to a wall with that before, not pretty when Helena starts raping you in the corner. I don't think Ryu can put himself in those problems, he probably can but I really haven't seen it.
Ryu can fuck himself over with certain throw options as well. :p
Obvious example would be his teleport OH. If read/anticipated, he's basically just chilling out for a bit waiting to die.
 

Argentus

Well-Known Member
This is an early estimation thread regarding the tier list of DoA5U, like its spiritual predecessor.

This list contains a combination of the Match-up rating discussion estimates at different corners of our community, and it must be underlined that one do not claim that this is final or something to be slapped as official at its current stage. These are simply estimates that we as a community has put forth thus far, and some with very little discussion or evaluation/second look at current stage. Thus it should not be taken as scientific fact, or otherwise be used as proof. It is simply put forwards for those of us which want to debate it further.

You can locate the collected data as a Google Spreadsheet here.

It is incomplete, but could still be viewed as an interesting piece of work in regards for further discussion here at the forums. It was last updated 10.12.13.

The current tiers are as following:
S Tier: Christie, Ayane, Leifang, Sarah
A Tier: Kasumi, Helena
B Tier: Akira, Alpha-152, Brad Wong, Gen Fu, Hayate, Hitomi, Pai
C Tier: Bayman, Kokoro, Lisa, Mila, Rig, Ryu, Tina, Zack
D Tier: Bass, Eliot, Ein, Jann Lee

Unclassified: Jacky, Leon, Momiji, Rachel

The sources for the current data is found in

Hitomi: http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/hitomi-matchup-rating-discussion.3507/
Ein: http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/eins-match-up-rating-discussion.3508/
Christie: http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/christies-match-up-rating-discussion.3766/
Kokoro: http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/kokoros-match-up-rating-discussion.3686/
Old data: http://www.freestepdodge.com/thread...live-5-tier-list-with-discussion-thread.2082/

Thank you, and I hope for some fruitful debate to expand upon the list further.

I love this listing, because it corresponds to my feelings of the characters, generally speaking.

Characters listed in tiers S, A, and B,
"Such
A
B
itch"

Characters listed in C and D
"Cool
Dudes"

For the record, I classify Leon as C tier, for being a cool dude. Also, he's not easy to use, so I wouldn't put him at high tier. I mean, hell, Bass can wreck people in seconds, but he's still bottom tier, so outright damage obviously isn't a factor.

Though I'd move Kokoro up to B, because she's a BIATCH.

Rachel's bottom tier, for now. She has Nicole's moves, but none of her versatility. She seems to lack the power and reach that would compensate for a limited moveset like that.
 

AkaShocka

Well-Known Member
Characters listed in tiers S, A, and B,
"Such
A
B
itch"

Characters listed in C and D
"Cool
Dudes"
This.

For the record, I classify Leon as C tier, for being a cool dude. Also, he's not easy to use, so I wouldn't put him at high tier. I mean, hell, Bass can wreck people in seconds, but he's still bottom tier, so outright damage obviously isn't a factor.
What does difficulty of a character have to do what tier they are in? Ayane is hard to use correctly and she's top tier. Same with Sarah.

Though I'd move Kokoro up to B, because she's a BIATCH.
Lol. I can understand why people can't fight her because of her ups and downs and mixups. But she really isn't hard to deal with. One sidestep against Kokoro can put the mach in your favor very quickly. Everything from her heichu stance does not track. Whenever you see the heichu just sidestep. A whole bunch of the ends of her strings are sidestep-able. When a string is about to be finished just sidestep because his bitch will go low, mid or high (sad fact: the high kick usually tracks at the end of strings :().
 

Argentus

Well-Known Member
This.


What does difficulty of a character have to do what tier they are in? Ayane is hard to use correctly and she's top tier. Same with Sarah.


Lol. I can understand why people can't fight her because of her ups and downs and mixups. But she really isn't hard to deal with. One sidestep against Kokoro can put the mach in your favor very quickly. Everything from her heichu stance does not track. Whenever you see the heichu just sidestep. A whole bunch of the ends of her strings are sidestep-able. When a string is about to be finished just sidestep because his bitch will go low, mid or high (sad fact: the high kick usually tracks at the end of strings :().

Imma be honest, I don't understand what dictates tiers. All I know is tryhards pick their characters based on tiers, thinking picking a high tier will give them an easier win.

Also, "hard to use correctly" does not mean "hard to get a win with." Just...throwin that out there.....( i constantly see Milas forfeit actually learning her, in favor of just stunjuggling to get the win)

But yeah...online, I've seen Kokoro strings track in full 180 degree turns. Getting better at fighting her, but still a B with a capital Itch.
 

Brute

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Standard Donor
lol. A character's ease of use doesn't dictate their tier palcement. If it did, Rachel and Momiji would be top tier.

A Tier List assumes high/top-level players are using all characters at top/high-level play. That means they are comfortable with the character, all possible execution, and are experts at yomi and know how/when to apply all of their tools properly.
 
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