She's still one of the higher execution characters in DOA5LR and is by no means "basic". Rachel, Momiji, Ein or Leon are basic in comparison.
Unbalanced?
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Chapstick
Well-Known Member
Just because those characters (you forgot Raidou and Naotora) are also basic doesn’t mean Phase isn’t as well. A majority of the characters introduced after 5 vanilla have been basic tbh.
@KasumiLover69
@Force_of_Nature
What you guys are talking about is exactly why this balancing act has become such a joke. Instead of giving all characters a tournament baseline, they've simply made some characters faster and more adequately equipt than others, such as Helena, Christie, Phase-4, Rachel. A mastered low tier character becomes an almost task impossible to face against with a mastered high tier character, because their speed, tools, and traps aren't as versatile, and require applying and understanding game knowledge tactics more precisely with it's appropriate timing, all in a small window of opportunity.
Either they have to make all characters almost equally fast, or give slower characters a lot more moves for equal versatility.
@Force_of_Nature
What you guys are talking about is exactly why this balancing act has become such a joke. Instead of giving all characters a tournament baseline, they've simply made some characters faster and more adequately equipt than others, such as Helena, Christie, Phase-4, Rachel. A mastered low tier character becomes an almost task impossible to face against with a mastered high tier character, because their speed, tools, and traps aren't as versatile, and require applying and understanding game knowledge tactics more precisely with it's appropriate timing, all in a small window of opportunity.
Either they have to make all characters almost equally fast, or give slower characters a lot more moves for equal versatility.
Raidou and Naotora aren't really "basic" per se. Rachel, Momiji, Ein & Leon are pretty basic. Anyone could pick them up in like 5-10 minutes and learn to play them properly (exaggeration I know, but you get the point). Phase-4 would take a lot longer to learn how to utilize her moves properly, especially with how unsafe she is during the neutral game. Phase-4 is one of the tougher characters to play in DOA5LR.
@Legendary Goken There's balance issues like this in pretty much every current fighting game. DOA5LR is still better balanced than the average 2D fighter for instance.
@Legendary Goken There's balance issues like this in pretty much every current fighting game. DOA5LR is still better balanced than the average 2D fighter for instance.
Chapstick
Well-Known Member
6P to fish for counters, 2P to reset, 66K/chifu~P/66P to get in, 66K/66PP to whiff punish, H+K for a range poke, 1P(P) to crush, 4K/33K to launch. This is all you really need for her. You don’t even need to mess around with the stun game because she gets good damage from like any launch. And I feel like people overstate how hard her teleports are, my execution is garbage and it took me maybe 2 weeks of practice to get the timing down.
And with Rachel you can get away with even less tools than that. Thing is you can mess up the teleports easily in a live competitive match, which can be a big deal considering how much of her gameplay is based around teleports. Though yeah, Phase-4's damage output is pretty nice.
@Force_of_Nature
You see it as balanced because you look at as your child, avoiding harm's way. DOA5 is not to be compared to a 2D fighter. It's thriving in a wealthy business front. From a blueprint standpoint, it is an atrocious marketing scheme.
Tekken 7, and VF5 are more balanced than DOA5.
VF5 with it's small dying team of devs make a more balanced game than it's wealthy cousin.
You see it as balanced because you look at as your child, avoiding harm's way. DOA5 is not to be compared to a 2D fighter. It's thriving in a wealthy business front. From a blueprint standpoint, it is an atrocious marketing scheme.
Tekken 7, and VF5 are more balanced than DOA5.
VF5 with it's small dying team of devs make a more balanced game than it's wealthy cousin.
VF5FS is more balanced than DOA5LR because it's essentially more balanced than pretty much every other fighting game. Tekken 7 is not more balanced than DOA5LR. It heavily favours characters with abusable get-in moves, pokes, or safe launchers, along with good whiff punishment ability.
Telling me it's balanced because it's balanced doesn't tell me anything.
And Tekken's heavy poke, launch, juggle is a part of it's central game mechanic, it's what differentiates Tekken from other fighting games, such as DOA with stuns and counter holds.
I'm actually quite surprised at how flawlessly they can make such new and sophisticated characters with a plethora of versatility, and offer free DLC characters in future updates. It's because the companies who make VF, Tekken and MvC actually care about fans and make sure to build a good fighting game first before anything else.
And Tekken's heavy poke, launch, juggle is a part of it's central game mechanic, it's what differentiates Tekken from other fighting games, such as DOA with stuns and counter holds.
I'm actually quite surprised at how flawlessly they can make such new and sophisticated characters with a plethora of versatility, and offer free DLC characters in future updates. It's because the companies who make VF, Tekken and MvC actually care about fans and make sure to build a good fighting game first before anything else.
I play Tekken, and I gotta say that the bears are pretty worthless in T7 (I play Heihachi, Lee, and Akuma), seriously the bears can't really do anything against Xiaoyu or Dragunov so anybody playing the bears has to hope for the best and wait for a Dragunov player to do a really stupid move to get them going (like doing a ws+2 on Dragunov's leg sweep, but what are the chances of that since he has a + low dab. Whiff punishment/spacing can be applied but that's still situational on player outcome). Anyways, I added the bears as an example of certain off balance and I think you do have some characters in DOA5LR that can still win due to having a stun system in place. Get a stun, throw if opponent holds, profit. Get a stun, opponent doesn't hold anymore, gets a free launch, profit. The entire cast can do that so everybody is pretty viable for the most part despite some speed differences.
Not defending TN's business practices to get the horny teens going and the direction of their game but in terms of balance, Tekken's got quite a few characters that do not get used in a tournament setting and rarely used in any other setting (I been playing Tekken since release and I have yet to fight the bear players, but I'll be playing for a long time so who knows), their site players states why those characters have issues. The same could be said for Raidou, Leon and other characters, but most of that is their speed differences and I am not motivated either to play against a fast paced character with Raidou unless I know for sure I can get the ball rolling (which is random). The characters still have hope for winning though, just takes a different approach somewhat even if it's a weird one.
Short answer, I think DOA5LR's entire cast can be used versus T7's cast where only 80% of them are used if we are talking about balance and character match up. I like Tekken so far, but characters might differ here.
Not defending TN's business practices to get the horny teens going and the direction of their game but in terms of balance, Tekken's got quite a few characters that do not get used in a tournament setting and rarely used in any other setting (I been playing Tekken since release and I have yet to fight the bear players, but I'll be playing for a long time so who knows), their site players states why those characters have issues. The same could be said for Raidou, Leon and other characters, but most of that is their speed differences and I am not motivated either to play against a fast paced character with Raidou unless I know for sure I can get the ball rolling (which is random). The characters still have hope for winning though, just takes a different approach somewhat even if it's a weird one.
Short answer, I think DOA5LR's entire cast can be used versus T7's cast where only 80% of them are used if we are talking about balance and character match up. I like Tekken so far, but characters might differ here.
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LOL. When was the last VF game released? 11 years ago about (with the last major console update coming over 5 years ago). Game is outdated as hell. Yes, mechanically the game is outstanding, but it fails on every other front and needs an update pretty badly.
Do the Tekken devs "care" about their fans more than the DOA devs? Which game got supported longer? TTT2 or DOA5/LR? Which game received 5 free stages and numerous update patches? Which game held 6 costume design contests to engage the fans? Has Katsuhiro Harada done for Tekken what Tom Lee has done for DOA5 in physically going to tournaments and listening to player feedback on the game? DOA5 has lasted this long because of how well TN supported the game throughout its lifetime.
Can't speak on MvC because I don't follow or care about that series.
LMAO... that's beside the point. I'm not talking about Saga's success story, I'm saying they can better balance a fighting game. It doesn't need money to do it. It's a matter of passion.
TTT2 had 59 characters with a variety of play styles, and great stages, old and new. And TTT2 was released on consoles the same time as DOA5. And yet, they still managed to release T7, with new stages and characters before DOA6. You tell me, who has the better support?
TTT2 had 59 characters with a variety of play styles, and great stages, old and new. And TTT2 was released on consoles the same time as DOA5. And yet, they still managed to release T7, with new stages and characters before DOA6. You tell me, who has the better support?
VF5FS is better balanced than DOA5LR predominantly because almost every character has an i12 jab, i14 elbow & i12 low jab, making a lot of the characters feel same-y. It's one of VF's ways of maintaining balance, and has nothing to do with "passion". The largest distinguishing factors balance-wise are the weight classes and hitboxes. If VF5 made more money, would the game be even more balanced or something?
TTT2 was supported until about 2013-2014, then Namco dropped it for Tekken 7 by the end of 2014 onwards. DOA5 has been supported in some capacity from 2012 until now, late 2017. TTT2 stages are not more interesting or interactive than DOA5LR's stages, though they were the closest you'd get to "interactive" stages in a Tekken game. Even Tekken 7's stages physically aren't more interesting then DOA5LR's, though some of the stages do have great lighting I'll admit. But in terms of something like interactivity? DOA5 has Tekken 7 covered.
Tekken isn't supported by its devs better than DOA, it simply has a much larger community and playerbase in comparison.
T..J. Bernard
Well-Known Member
I forgot to answer all the things in this. I kinda said my opinion on how balanced DOA is.
1) Is doa not considered a tournament fighter because of how unbalanced it is? Not really. I think personally, the people prefer street fighter, tekken, injustice and so on is one of the big reasons. Idk about the past DOA's but there's no "World tour" or "Cup" or "Pro Series" that keeps me off my seat for a tourney. I think DOA's biggest tourney's NEC but anyone can register for it. Fan service is 50-50. It hurts the reputation only because people look at female's fighting in bikini's or whatever costume and they look at it in a negative fashion, but in most media industries: sex sells.
Now to the balance thing. I kinda said my opinion but I'll re-iterate. I feel DOA's balance is similar to Tekken's. Not all the way but it's comparable. I say this because although there's no barrier to what characters can and cannot win (Lucky Chloe goes far for being "really awful" and Bass has make some top 8's I think), there are styles that seem preferred in a tournament setting. Tekken I feel prefers whiff punishment, "game-breaking crushes" as Aris would say, evasion, defense, pokes, counter-hits, & low-mid level execution, which is why Jack does really well despite being a mediocre character and Aris talks highly of Lili in tournaments. DOA I feel prefers speed, counter-hit, good stun, evasion, defense, versatility & likely low-mid-level execution, which is why this year, Rachel's been more relevant. Not to say Akira or Hwoarang can't win but there's a reason why those characters are seen but not as often as Christie or Dragunov.
2) You have characters like ayane who have literally every advantage. Ayane is a pest but not for the reason you explained. I kinda think that up close she's easier to handle since she kinda has a tough time opening you up if you have firm defense. Up close she has to get good counter hits in order for her to truly be dangerous. However, where she excels is her spacing and close-in moves. Like I said she wants a good counter hit. If you're rushing in trying to hit a button her stuns can catch you and her close in moves are a pain to handle but you have to stay firm. But then again, I lose to Ayane's pretty often online so, maybe my advice isn't the best.
3) Than you have characters like jann Lee who is almost all 1s 2s and 3s for stats. Now 1st, I'd disregard the stat thing. It's not like Injustice or anything, if injustice stats matter (I don't play it often so Idk). Jann's solid. Similar to Ayane, he's better as a spacing character. His close game's alright as he does have some decent tools but he's better in the mid-long range game. His throws do little damage somewhat but his dragon gunner's pretty effective (So long as you don't spam it) as it's a good reset for pressure situations and it leaves you at advantage making your opponent have to guess. Jann's a solid character. If not for his frames and such I feel he'd be really great for a tourney scenario.
4) Fan service: I kinda touched on it so I'm not saying that one again.
5) New characters:
Mai: I kinda said this on Mai but I mind as well re-iterate, Mai online (Along with many other characters) is a huge pain to deal with. No if's and's or but's about it. However when we really dissect Mai, She's another character that highly needs counter-hit to truly dominate. She's not like Kasumi where Kasumi excels at rushdown in addition to getting some decent counter hits. Mai has some close in tools & evasion tools and I'll say she's high tier to me. However, if you're well grounded, Mai will have a hard time fighting you.
Raidou: Well I'll leave that for someone else to talk about. The only Raidou I play's DBomb. I'll say this, he's very hard to use since he's slow and his execution level's pretty high for someone who's pretty slow and fundamentally sound. Unless you're fighting EDK or DBomb, I wouldn't worry much about Raidou. He's rarely seen anyways.
Marie Rose: Marie is a pain for me as she's someone with good holds and tools that seem "game-breaking". However, the more you fight her, the more you'll understand. She relies, to me, on two things: 1) good counter hit & 2) catching a good hold. She makes you aware to pay attention to your detail as well as hers. However, at least she doesn't have shoulders like Leifang. But I guess her hop's enough of a pain to deal with. I'd pay attention to her and you'll be fine.
I might be 100% wrong about all of these but I'm basing it off my experiences online & offline.
6) What is DOA doing?
Only Master & Tom Lee knows. I speculate that they're working on DOA 6 and this new character for DOA x3 but that's my speculation.
7) Even out the characters?
Give Rig Hayate's 1k or Handstand or shoulders and I consider everything even. All jokes aside, I feel that new characters & styles should be introduced. And improvement's with gameplay will help to even out characters. Not really buffing & nerfing characters.
8) Half the roster not used?
Not because they lose to Ayane, Marie Rose. Heck I don't even know if Ayane's been relevant in a tourney since Ghp and same with Marie Rose where only SonicFox excels. They're not used to me because either they're boring or they don't fit their tournament criteria. I can't use certain characters because they don't fit my tournament style that'll help me win. I feel that's the same for everyone else. Plus you have to factor execution and other factors which is why even Ayane & Marie Rose aren't in tourney's often. You don't get away with errors offline like online. Risk-reward plays huge. I'm not gonna risk a game with a character no one see's if it's someone, I know I'ma lose with in a ft2.
Lastly,
Marie Rose a character for pedophiles:
Kinda goes with the fan service thing I said.
1) Is doa not considered a tournament fighter because of how unbalanced it is? Not really. I think personally, the people prefer street fighter, tekken, injustice and so on is one of the big reasons. Idk about the past DOA's but there's no "World tour" or "Cup" or "Pro Series" that keeps me off my seat for a tourney. I think DOA's biggest tourney's NEC but anyone can register for it. Fan service is 50-50. It hurts the reputation only because people look at female's fighting in bikini's or whatever costume and they look at it in a negative fashion, but in most media industries: sex sells.
Now to the balance thing. I kinda said my opinion but I'll re-iterate. I feel DOA's balance is similar to Tekken's. Not all the way but it's comparable. I say this because although there's no barrier to what characters can and cannot win (Lucky Chloe goes far for being "really awful" and Bass has make some top 8's I think), there are styles that seem preferred in a tournament setting. Tekken I feel prefers whiff punishment, "game-breaking crushes" as Aris would say, evasion, defense, pokes, counter-hits, & low-mid level execution, which is why Jack does really well despite being a mediocre character and Aris talks highly of Lili in tournaments. DOA I feel prefers speed, counter-hit, good stun, evasion, defense, versatility & likely low-mid-level execution, which is why this year, Rachel's been more relevant. Not to say Akira or Hwoarang can't win but there's a reason why those characters are seen but not as often as Christie or Dragunov.
2) You have characters like ayane who have literally every advantage. Ayane is a pest but not for the reason you explained. I kinda think that up close she's easier to handle since she kinda has a tough time opening you up if you have firm defense. Up close she has to get good counter hits in order for her to truly be dangerous. However, where she excels is her spacing and close-in moves. Like I said she wants a good counter hit. If you're rushing in trying to hit a button her stuns can catch you and her close in moves are a pain to handle but you have to stay firm. But then again, I lose to Ayane's pretty often online so, maybe my advice isn't the best.
3) Than you have characters like jann Lee who is almost all 1s 2s and 3s for stats. Now 1st, I'd disregard the stat thing. It's not like Injustice or anything, if injustice stats matter (I don't play it often so Idk). Jann's solid. Similar to Ayane, he's better as a spacing character. His close game's alright as he does have some decent tools but he's better in the mid-long range game. His throws do little damage somewhat but his dragon gunner's pretty effective (So long as you don't spam it) as it's a good reset for pressure situations and it leaves you at advantage making your opponent have to guess. Jann's a solid character. If not for his frames and such I feel he'd be really great for a tourney scenario.
4) Fan service: I kinda touched on it so I'm not saying that one again.
5) New characters:
Mai: I kinda said this on Mai but I mind as well re-iterate, Mai online (Along with many other characters) is a huge pain to deal with. No if's and's or but's about it. However when we really dissect Mai, She's another character that highly needs counter-hit to truly dominate. She's not like Kasumi where Kasumi excels at rushdown in addition to getting some decent counter hits. Mai has some close in tools & evasion tools and I'll say she's high tier to me. However, if you're well grounded, Mai will have a hard time fighting you.
Raidou: Well I'll leave that for someone else to talk about. The only Raidou I play's DBomb. I'll say this, he's very hard to use since he's slow and his execution level's pretty high for someone who's pretty slow and fundamentally sound. Unless you're fighting EDK or DBomb, I wouldn't worry much about Raidou. He's rarely seen anyways.
Marie Rose: Marie is a pain for me as she's someone with good holds and tools that seem "game-breaking". However, the more you fight her, the more you'll understand. She relies, to me, on two things: 1) good counter hit & 2) catching a good hold. She makes you aware to pay attention to your detail as well as hers. However, at least she doesn't have shoulders like Leifang. But I guess her hop's enough of a pain to deal with. I'd pay attention to her and you'll be fine.
I might be 100% wrong about all of these but I'm basing it off my experiences online & offline.
6) What is DOA doing?
Only Master & Tom Lee knows. I speculate that they're working on DOA 6 and this new character for DOA x3 but that's my speculation.
7) Even out the characters?
Give Rig Hayate's 1k or Handstand or shoulders and I consider everything even. All jokes aside, I feel that new characters & styles should be introduced. And improvement's with gameplay will help to even out characters. Not really buffing & nerfing characters.
8) Half the roster not used?
Not because they lose to Ayane, Marie Rose. Heck I don't even know if Ayane's been relevant in a tourney since Ghp and same with Marie Rose where only SonicFox excels. They're not used to me because either they're boring or they don't fit their tournament criteria. I can't use certain characters because they don't fit my tournament style that'll help me win. I feel that's the same for everyone else. Plus you have to factor execution and other factors which is why even Ayane & Marie Rose aren't in tourney's often. You don't get away with errors offline like online. Risk-reward plays huge. I'm not gonna risk a game with a character no one see's if it's someone, I know I'ma lose with in a ft2.
Lastly,
Marie Rose a character for pedophiles:
Kinda goes with the fan service thing I said.
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T..J. Bernard
Well-Known Member
My fault. My post is really long. I just wanted to point out everything that was mentioned.
I'm surprised that this thread isn't shut down either, considering we already have multiple threads just like this.
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