What do you think Pai needs?

[Tokkosho]

I've been using Pai for awhile now, and i noticed she has a lot of stuff she needs. I'm just gonna name a few off the top of my head, feel free to add what you would like.

1. Her holds to lead to a truly guaranteed follow up, meaning, not slow escape-able, even if they were to reduce the frame advantage to tighten up timing, as long as she gets guaranteed follow-ups, she'll be a lot better imo.

2. 4P to crush highs. the movement in this attack makes it appear to be for punishing whiffed attacks when people are just throwing them out when theres space, but you'll often get poked out of it by those random attacks. (it also looks like it would crush highs)

3. Hakkeshou stance to parry all highs and all mids. I think she needs this to just be a safer move and make it less of a guessing game for Pai

4. Hakkeshou punch to be much more reliable. Often times going into hakkeshou people counter, also pretty often this will cause Pai to then be behind the person, and her punch juggle starter will no longer cause a launch, and if you use the follow up i do, you need to follow-up immediately, so this will screw you up entirely, and god forbid they tech roll because then they have advantage over you... actually i just tested this, it appears to depend on what side your on, but ima leave this cause i still don't like how it doesn't always launch EDIT: actually nvm, doing this onling no matter which way ill often still get the same effect....

5. Meishou (however you spell it, her back turn stance) to give SOME kind of evasion. Honestly, this stance seems really shitty to me except to maybe mix it up every so often. It offers barely any evasion, none thats actually useful, and the follow ups really aren't very good.

6. 44KK to push back a little less. now i haven't really spent much time in training with this, but the only time i can seem to be able to do a guaranteed launcher after it is when im in there face (usually after 4P) i know there are other ways to set up for it and get a guaranteed launcher, but as one of her few guaranteed set-ups i think you should be able to use it more generally, especially when its so slow and 2 highs

Well thats pretty much what i got, i would also love for 6P to be 10 frames but that would be overkill lol, add on what you think she needs. EDIT: 46K to back stun like the K in PPK would be nice too, but not necessary, just nice.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

I've recently been reading that Pai's hold stuns are SEable, but I don't see it. I've got the dummy set to SE as fast as possible and it's also set to critical hold as soon as possible. Yet, the frame data holds up. Is there some other form of testing that would yield different results?

As far as things I think she needs; a tutorial. LoL. Pai is not your typical DOA character and this isn't VF. There are adjustments to be made by both parties -- as far as habits and mentality.

 

[Tokkosho]

On fastest critical hold and SE they can hold your 66H+K for the mid and low kick holds, which takes a shit load of use out of those holds, on mid punch same thing if you follow up with 33P+K (i dont think they even need to SE for this one) the highs guarantee a follow (a super weak one) and low punch guarantees nothing

 

[Allan Paris]

Her holds allowing guaranteed launchers and her overall damage output needs to be buffed. Except for the damage of her holds IF she gets a damage buff on her attacks. Buff these two things and she's good to go in DOA5, don't buff them and she remains weak.

All of the other things that have been listed as "needs" would take away the element of her being a guest character. Her Hakkeshou does not parry all highs and mids in VF, so why here? Pai's Meishouho is not evasive in VF either. 4P does not crush and so on.

If you are looking for a crush move, 2P+K works great, 3P, 2H+K, 33P+K (that is not the correct notation for that move but the move will come out from inputting 33 which is a lot easier to do), and you also have (this will crush some mids).

With number 4, welcome to DOA.

I don't mean to be an asshole but if you feel that these "needs" will make her stronger then you are doing work with her incorrectly. None of these "needs" except for the first one listed is niche in her gameplay.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

On fastest critical hold and SE they can hold your 66H+K for the mid and low kick holds, which takes a shit load of use out of those holds, on mid punch same thing if you follow up with 33P+K (i dont think they even need to SE for this one) the highs guarantee a follow (a super weak one) and low punch guarantees nothing

All of those attacks could be held anyway. Pai's 66K+H, has 20 frames of 'startup' before it can even make contact with an opponent that far away. Her mid kick hold stuns for 22 frames. There was never guaranteed damage after Pai's mid punch hold or her low punch hold. You could do those same attacks with SE turned off and get countered. I don't aim to abrasive, but that just doesn't prove that one can SE Pai's holds.

As far as low punch hold; it's her most damaging hold -- as far as native damage. It also puts you in a BT position at -4 against a rush-down queen. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't like that proposition.

 

[DR2K]

More damage on her holds, guaranteed follow ups, but with a severe damage modifier.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

Allan Paris. Are you referring to 14P? If you are, then knowing that it crushes some mids, makes me love that move even more -- if that's even possible. LoL.

 

[Tokkosho]

Her holds allowing guaranteed launchers and her overall damage output needs to be buffed. Except for the damage of her holds IF she gets a damage buff on her attacks. Buff these two things and she's good to go in DOA5, don't buff them and she remains weak.

All of the other things that have been listed as "needs" would take away the element of her being a guest character. Her Hakkeshou does not parry all highs and mids in VF, so why here? Pai's Meishouho is not evasive in VF either. 4P does not crush and so on.

If you are looking for a crush move, 2P+K works great, 3P, 2H+K, 33P+K (that is not the correct notation for that move but the move will come out from inputting 33 which is a lot easier to do), and you also have (this will crush some mids).

With number 4, welcome to DOA.

I don't mean to be an asshole but if you feel that these "needs" will make her stronger then you are doing work with her incorrectly. None of these "needs" except for the first one listed is niche in her gameplay.

ehhh while a damage buff would be nice, i dont feel its necessary for her. If they did a hold and damage buff your right, she wouldnt need anything else in my list. but i dont really see a damage buff happening, so i think adding 1. 4. and 6. would help her a lot, the rest would just be icing.... on the pai

All of those attacks could be held anyway. Pai's 66K+H, has 20 frames of 'startup' before it can even make contact with an opponent that far away. Her mid kick hold stuns for 22 frames. There was never guaranteed damage after Pai's mid punch hold or her low punch hold. You could do those same attacks with SE turned off and get countered. I don't aim to abrasive, but that just doesn't prove that one can SE Pai's holds.

As far as low punch hold; it's her most damaging hold -- as far as native damage. It also puts you in a BT position at -4 against a rush-down queen. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't like that proposition.

well if you just wanted proof of being able to SE her holds, go to training, hold someone, set it to fastest SE, hold again, notice a difference in frame advantage? My point is i want it to be like her stun throws, ( such as 46T) where there is no option to SE, even if they were to reduce frame advantage. AND to make 66H+K guaranteed, so she has viable holds

 

[OldsmoBuick]

^^I checked it out and the numbers do change. However, what I stated still holds true, you never were going to land those particular attacks. SEing on or off doesn't matter. The follow-up attacks to most of her holds aren't great but they do exist. I can almost hear the 'Nerf Counsel' scream bloody murder if Pai could launch from all her holds instead of needing advance holds. Besides, you all do know, that if you hi counter with some of those same holds, you can CB in 3 moves. That's right. Hold + whatever stuns long enough -- and fits inside the stun window -- + 66P = CB. I didn't test it on high kick hold, though.

You're welcome.

 

[Tokkosho]

wut?.... i land 66H+K 90% of the time off of mid and low kick counter, i dont expect anything from low punch counter (maybe make it possible for a guaranteed back throw that does NO damage and guarantees nothing anyway, but still dont expect it)

 

[OldsmoBuick]

wut?.... i land 66H+K 90% of the time off of mid and low kick counter, i dont expect anything from low punch counter (maybe make it possible for a guaranteed back throw that does NO damage and guarantees nothing anyway, but still dont expect it)

I'm doing my best not to de-rail this thread but... Just because you land an attack doesn't mean it's guaranteed. Go into training with SE turned 'off' -- not slow or fast -- set critical hold to mid kick with fastest hold speed. You will NEVER land 66K+H.

Also, low punch hold does 30 points of damage. If you got a guaranteed BT throw, you'd get a free juggle and a nerfed character on the next patch.

 

[Tokkosho]

^^ i dont feel like testing it right now but if thats true that just goes towards my point more. and the back grab does NO damage and guarantees nothing (nothing of significance) so it would be mainly for pressure and reducing their options, but like i said, i doubt it will happen.

 

[Tokkosho]

Just tested it, really doesn't change my view on it though

 

[HoodsXx]

Really all she needs is more damage. Her mix ups, frame traps, and her holds/ grabs imo are still good. Yeah they aren't guaranteed, but the fact that she can still mix up out of them does her some good. You can mix up a low, grab, high, or mid with a mid punch / mid kick hold. The low hold obviously is crappy anyways, and her high punch hold does get her a 66H+K PPKK, since they're in BT.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

Pai might be the only character in the game, that can't enter any of her stances (MEH?), without first attacking. This needs to be looked into and at least partially changed. By adding instant access to her stances, the inate defensive abilities attached to them, are given to the player as a viable alternative to her lackluster holds.

Also, I would like to see her HAK P replace her SS P. Or give Pai an additional SS attack. One that is unsafe if blocked, but does -- or leads to -- RESPECTABLE damage when it hits.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

^^ i dont feel like testing it right now but if thats true that just goes towards my point more. and the back grab does NO damage and guarantees nothing (nothing of significance) so it would be mainly for pressure and reducing their options, but like i said, i doubt it will happen.

The hold itself does 30 damage. Adding a guaranteed back throw is a guaranteed launcher.

With people already upset about low hold spamming, this 60 damage low hold combo -- that's a conservative, non-counter estimate -- will get 'nerfed' faster than it got 'buffed'.

 

[shunwong]

Pai might be the only character in the game, that can't enter any of her stances (MEH?), without first attacking. This needs to be looked into and at least partially changed. By adding instant access to her stances, the inate defensive abilities attached to them, are given to the player as a viable alternative to her lackluster holds.

She can access a stance by doing 4P+K (without attacking).

On what she needs: I feel she needs more damage, mainly. With her, it just felt I had to work much more for damage than with other characters. Otherwise I think she's mostly ok.

 

[Tokkosho]

4P+K is way more risk than its worth. And yeah Buick it would be amazing if I could access HAK w\o a hit first. It's been a month since I made this thread, so finding new stuff has either compensated for, changed my wants, or made me want something completely different with Pai, such as a guaranteed launcher isn't necessary for her counters... But a 6P would be nice. I honestly think its ridiculous that people don't need to really worry about 4H 6H or 1H (still don't expect anything from the low punch, unless they keep her holds how they are, then they gotta buff that shit) i haven't been In the lab testing her high punch/kick counter, but on lightweights you can get 70 or so damage on NH or a force tech, and a guaranteed FT on midweights.

 

[phoenix1985gr]

Allan paris said that half of her parries guarrantee a launch, and the other half at least a hit... Do you know which are which? and what launch or hits are guaranteed when they slow escape?

 

[OldsmoBuick]

She can access a stance by doing 4P+K (without attacking).
On what she needs: I feel she needs more damage, mainly. With her, it just felt I had to work much more for damage than with other characters. Otherwise I think she's mostly ok.

Is that her MEH stance? If so, -- although I stand corrected -- that's not much help, as it doesn't have any of the inate defensive abilities I referred to.