DOA5U What Should be Done with the Ground Game?

[deathofaninja]

What do you guys think of the ground game in Dead or Alive 5: Ultimate now? If you don't want to discuss overall, maybe detail what should be done, and what you can do with your specific character. Here is what I typically hear:

1. The ground game sucks, and should go back to vanillas.

- More times than not I agree with this. When I see my moves go right through the grounded opponent and they are rewarded with a wake-up kick it kind of kills your game.

2. The Force Techs in vanilla could make the ground game for standing opponent too powerful.

- I can agree with this as well, but to me this makes more sense than attacks going through the opponent's body.

I think they need to improve the training mode in DOA5U. There should be an option to keep the dummy on the ground unless they are hit with a true force tech, but seeing how getting force techs is so time specific now, maybe that wouldn't even help.

In the first couple months of playing Ultimate, I was't so sure I would ever adjust to the new ground game, but I did find some peace with my character .

Force Tech options:

After doing 8T, you can Pseudo force tech with Alpha with her Float P. Now if the force tech does hit you can follow up with a great mix option: you can either go for another 8T (works ALL the time), 2H+K, or 4K. If the opponent does tech roll you can still escape, so taking the risk is always a good trade. If your back happens to be turned and the opponent is already up you can do 7K BT which is a great risk because the move does insane damage + wall, guard breaks and is 8 frames.

Another option for force teching is after BT 2 H+K, the opponent hits the floor so hard Alpha has enough time to recover with a 4 or 6 K force tech. If you do it right it's pretty much guaranteed to force up the opponent, but my timing has been off before and I've missed it.

is another character I've been fooling around with. She gets the short end of the stick imo when it comes to the ground game. She has her ground throws and 6 H+K and 33P, but the timing has to be so dead on, that the risk isn't really worth the trade of getting hit by a WUK.

I do think some more training would help, and I don't think the ground game is actually quite as bad as some people let on, but it does have some issues.

One more thing I would like to mention is I think the community throws out the word "guaranteed" so much that some people think the only tools that matter for their character are tools that guarantee damage. I don't agree with this method or understanding.

 

[RoboJoe]

What I want is 1. Remove the pushback on a blocked wakeup kick, 2. Remove the stun from a CH wakeup kick and replace it with +0 frame advantage.


P.S. Fix the damn walls, TN.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Make wake up kicks -60. I want enough time to sidewalk behind you and get a back turned combo. I don't mind no force techs if the guy standing doesn't have to be scared of someone on the ground.

 

[Rapham0n]

What I want is 1. Remove the pushback on a blocked wakeup kick, 2. Remove the stun from a CH wakeup kick and replace it with +0 frame advantage.


P.S. Fix the damn walls, TN.

TN are too busy spewing out unneeded DLC to worry about fixing the problems in the game. IMHO they need to spend less time working on DLC and more time working on patches. Fix the damn game first, then they can focus on DLC.

 

[Argentus]

Eh. The entire point of wakeups is to let the downed opponent get up and back on the fight. There's no reason to let the standing opponent just keep kicking someone who's already down.

Its retarded when you can just keep wailing on somebody who can't fight back.

I believe that if the standing opponent is foolish enough to still be standing next to a downed opponent who can spring up and retaliate at any moment, they should be punished for it.

That said I love Leon and milas ground game, my style revolves around it.

 

[TLEE SAID THIS:]

Eh. The entire point of wakeups is to let the downed opponent get up and back on the fight. There's no reason to let the standing opponent just keep kicking someone who's already down.

Its retarded when you can just keep wailing on somebody who can't fight back.

I believe that if the standing opponent is foolish enough to still be standing next to a downed opponent who can spring up and retaliate at any moment, they should be punished for it.

That said I love Leon and milas ground game, my style revolves around it.

I like how Tekken offers far more options to the floored player, even though being on the ground is still not the ideal situation. Give the grounded player the ability to kick the opponent in the shin or throw a fast, weak, wake-up kick that does nothing but push the opponent away a little from the grounded player. Add spring kicks and rolling tackles. Make some characters deadly even if their back is on the ground. Also, allow directional rolling.

Other then that, side-stepping, in my opinion, should be much more useful in this game. Anything side-stepped, other than tracking moves, should be punishable. There shouldn't be any linear attacks with tracking, that's what tracking moves are for.

 

[Argentus]

I like how Tekken offers far more options to the floored player, even though being on the ground is still not the ideal situation. Give the grounded player the ability to kick the opponent in the shin or throw a fast, weak, wake-up kick that does nothing but push the opponent away a little from the grounded player. Add spring kicks and rolling tackles. Make some characters deadly even if their back is on the ground. Also, allow directional rolling.

Other then that, side-stepping, in my opinion, should be much more useful in this game. Anything side-stepped, other than tracking moves, should be punishable. There shouldn't be any linear attacks with tracking, that's what tracking moves are for.

It shouldn't even be a matter of tracking.

It should be like soul caliber, where unless the attack is actually sweeping horizontally, there's no reason it should auto target a sidestepping opponent.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Eh. The entire point of wakeups is to let the downed opponent get up and back on the fight. There's no reason to let the standing opponent just keep kicking someone who's already down.

Its retarded when you can just keep wailing on somebody who can't fight back.

I believe that if the standing opponent is foolish enough to still be standing next to a downed opponent who can spring up and retaliate at any moment, they should be punished for it.

That said I love Leon and milas ground game, my style revolves around it.

Are you trying to say that someone on the ground should have the advantage over someone on their feet?

 

[Argentus]

Are you trying to say that someone on the ground should have the advantage over someone on their feet?

No I'm saying the person on the ground should be able to get up.



Its not "downed opponent has the advantage". Its "downed opponent has a chance". They are still screwed if they are counter held, or crushed. But now the attacker isnt being spoiled by being able to kick people while they are down with no chance of retaliation.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I'm fine with invincibility on the ground until you're back on your feet. Just tech roll backwards. The problem I have is with wake up kicks. Why is someone on the ground able to do an attack that has invincible start up, tracking, AND have it be fairly safe on block? Why is it that in order to punish a greedy invincible move done from a supposedly disadvantageous situation, I have to hold a mixup? I just did something right and got a big hit in that knocked you down and now I have to play defensively and try and whiff punish someone's who's on the ground? That's what I have a problem with.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

No I'm saying the person on the ground should be able to get up.



Its not "downed opponent has the advantage". Its "downed opponent has a chance". They are still screwed if they are counter held, or crushed. But now the attacker isnt being spoiled by being able to kick people while they are down with no chance of retaliation.

I'm guessing that you don't play any other fighting game if you have trouble "getting up" in DOA5U. There's a shitload of invincibility frames on downed opponents which is retarded. Hint: Tech roll if the opponent keeps hitting you on the ground. If you think DOA's ground game is unfair to the downed opponent, Tekken will drive you insane.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

The idea is to give the downed opponent a chance to get up (as already). And while tech-rolling is a solution (which my main doesn't really have.) However, now that she does have a WUK, she doesn't due to the ground hits, but most go for true and/or psuedo FTs as well (I know Alpha has those)

I realize how she techs up, but aren't you just gonna repeat the same thing you did before to knock her down? Maybe that's the answer! Don't knock anybody down if you're afraid of a WUK at least players or smart enough to keep Alpha out of the only scenario to execute it. Same thing when walled! She has to be sitting down, but she almost NEVER gets in the scenario either.

Here's the thing: (as with everybody), it's assumed she'll instinctively go for the WUK - everyone else has the same assumption, but they can also delay their WUKs as well (Example: Ryu's Torpedo Headbutt and there's no special situation required for him) Besides, isn't blocking or SS an option to avoid them?

But yes, giving the downed opponent a chance to reset was the intention of WUKs just as holding from stun was implemented to avoid more punishment. Again, a WUK reset while it resets the situation, the one who executed it doesn't necessarily have the advantage - this is why it's deemed a reset!

Liken to the "Clash" in Injustice! If there is no winner, then both characters are knocked back to the neutral position, resetting themselves, regardless of whom may try to get an advantage after the reset! Of course, if there is a winner, the loser gets punished, but there is still a reset! Now, for MK9 with the Combo Breaker, the one who utilized it, has to capitalize somehow since you aren't knocked back as far, but the bit of space you get, (Damn, there's that spacing term again!)

I think what has happened is that players believe that giving their opponents zero chance, means just that. However, there is {B]always[/B] a chance in any and all scenarios!

Wanna be a counter-whore? Watch me intentionally give you what you want, then come with something you'd never thought you'd get - and now I suddenly have the advantage! The point behind the WUK/Tech-rolling implements!

 

[Argentus]

I'm fine with invincibility on the ground until you're back on your feet. Just tech roll backwards. The problem I have is with wake up kicks. Why is someone on the ground able to do an attack that has invincible start up, tracking, AND have it be fairly safe on block? Why is it that in order to punish a greedy invincible move done from a supposedly disadvantageous situation, I have to hold a mixup? I just did something right and got a big hit in that knocked you down and now I have to play defensively and try and whiff punish someone's who's on the ground? That's what I have a problem with.

Key words being "knocked <them> down".

Offense stops and resets for a chance for the downed guy to get back up.

You aren't on defensive and they aren't on offense nor do they have the advantage.

Hell if anything you still have the advantage since you can counter hold them right back onto the ground.

The problem is the mentality. People think they should be able to continue attacking downed opponents as if they weren't downed.



Also tech rolling backwards doesn't help against walls or long reaching attacks (fuck leifangs slide)

 

[XZero264]

Back techs are an amazing thing. Best used against people who like to 8P+K or try an unguaranteed ground throw/strike setup (looking at you Rachel).

Ground game is fine how it is. I can't begin to imagine what kind of bullshit I could come up with Leon if we had the vanilla ground game, the Bayman and Mila stuff were ridiculous enough.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

The problem is the mentality. People think they should be able to continue attacking downed opponents as if they weren't downed.

Do you realize how silly this sounds? Why shouldn't I be able to continue attacking a downed opponent? I fucking scored a knockdown on them. IRL if I knock you down in a fight, you get no advantage whatsoever and have to defend. I wouldn't exactly call myself "amazing" at this game but I've had zero problems getting up. What I've been having a problem with is maintaining pressure after a knockdown when I'm not Kasumi or Christie. Something is wrong when the optimal course of action to apply oki is to back off and let you get up. I cannot describe how many rounds I've blown by backing off from my opponent or getting hit by a CH WUK. It's stupid as hell (It's dumb in VF also though there are other ways to deal with it.)

Again, tech rolls are your friend. Don't stay on the ground if the opponent keeps hitting you on the ground. If the opponent keeps trying to "pressure" you on wake up, then you can stay on the ground and attempt a WUK (see how this metagame works now..?). Ask any of the Toronto players that have played me if I've had any problems getting up after a knockdown. I mostly suspect that you don't know how to get up properly. Tekken is a lot less forgiving after a knockdown. SC also gives the attacker no reason to back off after a knockdown which is how it should be.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Key words being "knocked <them> down".

Offense stops and resets for a chance for the downed guy to get back up.

You aren't on defensive and they aren't on offense nor do they have the advantage.

Hell if anything you still have the advantage since you can counter hold them right back onto the ground.

The problem is the mentality. People think they should be able to continue attacking downed opponents as if they weren't downed.



Also tech rolling backwards doesn't help against walls or long reaching attacks (fuck leifangs slide)

Back teaching is invulnerable. Just block. The game doesn't stop when you're on the ground. The problem is that people think they can still attack when they're the on ground. The bigger problem is that the game is in a state where they CAN think that.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

Do you realize how silly this sounds? Why shouldn't I be able to continue attacking a downed opponent? I fucking scored a knockdown on them. IRL if I knock you down in a fight, you get no advantage whatsoever and have to defend. I wouldn't exactly call myself "amazing" at this game but I've had zero problems getting up. What I've been having a problem with is maintaining pressure after a knockdown when I'm not Kasumi or Christie. Something is wrong when the optimal course of action to apply oki is to back off and let you get up. I cannot describe how many rounds I've blown by backing off from my opponent or getting hit by a CH WUK. It's stupid as hell (It's dumb in VF also though there are other ways to deal with it.)

But you could have won those rounds/fights, too due to things resetting themselves! That's our point! Using Alpha again: You mean to tell me that if I WUK you because you let me get up means a loss for you? Why don't I buy that? Is there a possibility I might rush you down? Yes, but I doubt you'd just stand there and let me do it! I'm not saying that one can't lose due to a WUK that turns things, but if this were you on the WUK side of things where things weren't favorable?

MK9 yet again! It's oki game is no different as you have the option to oki right way or delay it. It wasn't instituted to make the opponent cringe, but to THINK! I'm sure you can still win if you bite a couple of WUKs. If not, that's on you! However, it doesn't mean to "kick the opponent when its down just for the hell of it!" Now, PFT and FT is different, but that's the answer to WUKs! Not deliberate "cheap-shots!" I rarely FT anyone because I see no use for it if I can beat the hell out of them while we are both standing up or they beat the hell out of me standing up!

 

[Argentus]

Why shouldn't I be able to continue attacking a downed opponent?

if I knock you down in a fight, you get no advantage whatsoever and have to defend.

What I've been having a problem with is maintaining pressure after a knockdown

gives the attacker no reason to back off after a knockdown which is how it should be.

I slimmed your post down to the key points.


1). Being able to defend when downed is the entire argument I'm making. You are trying to argue that a downed opponent shouldn't be able to do anything, let alone defend themselves.

2). How it Should be is: You dropped the advantage when you dropped the opponent.

Downed states are supposed to be the breather for the person to get back up and back in the game. Again, built in referee.

Not just so the attacker can keep attacking, in which case there's literally no reason to even HAVE a downed state or ground game.

For the record, ground grapples are (mostly) fine. I'm talking about shit like continuing strings on downed opponents, which is just plain retarded.

 

[Brute]

Example: Ryu's Torpedo Headbutt and there's no special situation required for him Besides, isn't blocking or SS an option to avoid them?

Your head has to be facing the opponent when knocked down. If they are facing your side or feet, you cannot do Ryu's special wake-up. Additionally, sometimes even when his head is facing the opponent, he may refuse to do the attack. It's probably a result of the opponent being an inch or two outside of a direct line coming from where his head is pointing, but you'll notice every so often Ryu will get up and use his CB immediately. Chances are they intended to use his special wake-up and got that instead.

As far as options against it go, the entire animation (initial roll frames including) has no invincibility at all. The attack is unsafe on block and low throw punishable. It can be held with a mid P hold that counts as a jumping mid P, and it does not track. The attack is quite slow and telegraphed (offline it can be read and held, intercepted or blocked/punished on reaction). It does not crush mids, even early in the animation. Your standard mid-poke will hit him out of it and score CH rewards+damage and the initial roll animation does not function like an evasive command sidestep against regular attacks. For example, a standing Ryu can use 6K against it and still land the hit, despite 6K having no tracking. It will, however, roll outside of special floor hits (such as Ryu's 2P or 8P+K against grounded opponents).

 

[StrikerSashi]

I slimmed your post down to the key points.


1). Being able to defend when downed is the entire argument I'm making. You are trying to argue that a downed opponent shouldn't be able to do anything, let alone defend themselves.

2). How it Should be is: You dropped the advantage when you dropped the opponent.

Downed states are supposed to be the breather for the person to get back up and back in the game. Again, built in referee.

Not just so the attacker can keep attacking, in which case there's literally no reason to even HAVE a downed state or ground game.

For the record, ground grapples are (mostly) fine. I'm talking about shit like continuing strings on downed opponents, which is just plain retarded.

1. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to defend yourself when downed. You just shouldn't be able to attack when you're downed, at least not without a reasonable risk.

2. No.