"3-7 is the new 5-5" Helena match up thread.

DR2K

Well-Known Member
+solid evasion tools(bokuho, SS moves, P+K, 66p, etc. . .)
-most unsafe character in the game
-lowest damage output
-her best tools are all mid punch(cb, sitdown stuns, 3 in 1s, etc. . .)

Good against linear characters (Jann Lee, Mila)
Bad against grapplers (Bass, Tina)
Bad against defensive characters (Hayabusa, Leifang, Bayman)
Bad against fast characters (Eliot, Zack, Christie)

vs Alpha 5-5
Even match up, I think almost every match up against Alpha will be dead even. Helena can do very little to defend against Alpha, she needs to stay on offense. Her predicable mids will allow Alpha to use her teleports to reset the sitation. Helena can pressure Alpha when she gets her offense started and she can keep it. Alpha is one of the lightest characters in the game, so it allows Helena to go for higher damage combos.

vs Akira 3-7
Helena being a slow character with a lot of unsafe strings vs a character who excels at guard breaks and frame advantage. Helena needs to be at close range playing the stun system, but Akira excels at close range so he can start his pressure.

vs Ayane 4-6
Ayane does everything Helena does better, but t the same time is a great pressure character. Helena crushes most of Ayane long distance options, p+k beats the drill kick cleanly. Her BKO duck also evades most of her running offense. Ayane has to keep herself close to mid distance to win, but the match up is still in her favor.

vs Bass 4-6
Bass being slow and linear allows for Helena to play to her strengths. Her safety becomes a major issue against grapplers with high damage throws and faster active frames. Bass's pressure game revovles around his pick ups. Helena has some pretty solid answers to his options. her qcb throw and bko throw are great tools against a Bass fishing for offensive holds. Her 11 frame mid punch from bko also allows her to interrupt his offense.

vs Bayman 3-7
Advanced holds hurt her predictable mids, a lot. Her long animations will allow for his half life damage OHs to hit. His damage output easily dwarfs hers in every aspect. His disadvantage is that he will have difficulty hitting Helena because of his speed. His weight also makes it harder for her to damage him in combos.

vs Brad Wong 4-6
Bradwong is a lot more evasive than Helena, in fact his laying down stance does what Helena has to duck in bokuho now. It evades mids better than her. Very problamitic for a mid oriented character. Luckily she has a few solid lows to deal with it. Damage output, safety, and evasion are all in his favor. One of those anything you can I can do greater scenerios.


vs Christie 4-6
Helena will have to apprach this match up like she's fighting Akira, only faster, but does less damage. Christie is a little easier for Helena to crush than Akira, but Christie also has evasive tools that give her access to guard breaks.

vs Eliot 5-5
Eliot's parries keep Helena honest, but he's also playing DOA4s stun game primarily. The main difference is that he'll do more damage than her on the correct guess on average.

vs Genfu 4-6
Also has parries that she must watch out for, incredibly safe and hits like a truck. Helena's evasive abilities will allow her to gain offense in this match up, but she's completely out classed.

vs Hayate 5-5
Classic DOA4 match. They'll both be playing the stun game for their damage. Hayate is safer and does more damage overall, but Helena is more evasive. Overall no distict advantage on either side.

vs Hitomi 5-5
Same as Hayate. Only thing that makes this match up different is that Hitomi has better lows to interrupt bokuho and a punch parry that will beat all of Helena's best tools. Helena plays the stun game a little better and has little trouble using her evasion to get around some of Hitomi's linear moves.

vs Jann 5-5
Helena's stance ignores his Dragon Gunner completely, she has little difficulty getting him to play the stun game. His damage outpit dwarfs hers, and if he can get her out of bokuho he can start his dragon gunner shenanigans.

vs Kasumi 4-6
Kasumi has everything a Helena players hates. A mid that beats every single one of her stance transitions even on block. Like Christie, Kasumi is going to out poke Helena and constantly apply pressure that Helena can crush. Helena's evasion is vital in keeping this from being a 3-7 match up. Kasumi has a lot of fast highs, but Helena has a plethora of ways to crush them.

vs Kokoro 4-6
Kokoro does grown ass man damage. The damage difference between the 2 in this department is a joke. Kokoro is all about guard breaks, sitdown stuns, and huge damage. Helena does have answers to Kokoro's primarily high/high mid tools through crushes.

vs Leifang 4-6
This match up is identical to Bayman, given how similar their tools are. One differentiator is smaller damage, but better crushes.

vs Lisa 5-5
Another stun game match up. Only difference is that Lisa is safer, does huge damage on a good guess, and can make going into bokuho dangerous with her low OH and he high damage low throw.

vs Mila 4-6
Being in bokuho will allow her to not have to deal with her tackle game, but Mila is playing DOA5. She's fully capable of putting you into a sitdown stun into CB into a high damage guaranteed ground grab.

vs Pai 4-6
Pai is a a bully up close, with her 10 frame jab, general speed and frame advantage. generally low damage output, but a tad bit higher than Helena. Helena should use bokuho to play a mid distance game in order to win, but up close she's completely outclassed.

vs Rig 5-5
While Rig plays DOA5 sitdown stun athon. Bokuho allows for Helena to get in on his generally high and mid kick oriented offense.


vs Ryu 4-6 (potential 3-7 match up)
This is the match up where Helena players discover that mids beat her bokuho duck now. All of his mids from ninpo will hit her out of Bokuho duck. He has exceptional hold and throw damage and an incredible distance game. Helena has to be aggressive and close in this match. She can win, but not by playing to her strengths.

vs Sarah 4-6 (potential 3-7 match up)
Oh hey there's a character with frame advantage into stances. Helena is going to need to stay out of close distance, Sarah's frame advantage is especially potent against slower characters. Helena needs to start her stun game in order to win, Sarah's counters generally do little damage so there's little to no incentive to stay on defense.

vs Tina 4-6
Offensive holds ruin helena's day and tina has them on top of being safer, doing more damage and having an excellent force tech game. using the hold system is a big risk against Tina.


vs Zack 5-5
Stun game vs stun game. Zack is a lot faster, but he can be crushed. He'll be doing more damage, but it's all guess based.
 

MCDOA

Member
Can't believe there isn't a single 6-4 match up there...

Yeah, I don't seem to get in on someone like Leifang.
The real problem for me is Christie though, I even lose to noob Christie players because I just can't break through her punches. Same with Rig, once his kicks start up I just watch as 50% of my health disappears.

What really works for me is abusing side step kick to get in on people. Then you can either stay in BKO, or try and launch them as quickly as possible.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
Can't believe there isn't a single 6-4 match up there...

Yeah, I don't seem to get in on someone like Leifang.
The real problem for me is Christie though, I even lose to noob Christie players because I just can't break through her punches. Same with Rig, once his kicks start up I just watch as 50% of my health disappears.

What really works for me is abusing side step kick to get in on people. Then you can either stay in BKO, or try and launch them as quickly as possible.

Well if you put every characters best tools and stragies on the table so far, she's ill equipped.

Leifang's sabaki's, parries, advanced holds, throw damage, etc. . . are designed to beat a mid punch oriented, slow, unsafe character like Helena. It's not easy to get in on Leifang.

Chrsite is all guard breaks and speed. You'll need to use her crushes to start up your stun game. p+k, 66p and 4p are optimal. Also Christie hold and throw damage are low as well, so Helena has a little more breathing room in that regard.

Rig I need to look into more.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
All opinions are welcome in this thread.
I know, he shouldn't look at one opinion and instantly think she has completely shitty match ups. Just making sure he realises it's just one persons opinion and not a community consensus.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
I know, he shouldn't look at one opinion and instantly think she completely shitty match ups. Just making sure he realises it's just one persons opinion and not a community consensus.
So how do people feel about Jann Lee? This match up feels terrible in this game. He is impossible to beat when it comes to his spacing game and he is quicker up close in every regard, jab and mid strikes.

So how do you guys deal with him. Outside of relying on counters I see no good strategy for him.
 

Doug Nguyen

Well-Known Member
So how do people feel about Jann Lee? This match up feels terrible in this game. He is impossible to beat when it comes to his spacing game and he is quicker up close in every regard, jab and mid strikes.

So how do you guys deal with him. Outside of relying on counters I see no good strategy for him.
Seriously. Once he's far away. All i see is that annoying mid kick. And his 4PPPP is impossible for me to counter. Most of his attacks in general i cant counter.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
Th
Seriously. Once he's far away. All i see is that annoying mid kick. And his 4PPPP is impossible for me to counter. Most of his attacks in general i cant counter.
The way I see it is you have to run forward and throw out a mid kick counter which is bullshit. His 66K should still be unsafe on block like it used to be. I just hate knowing that he will beat me out every time up close and at range.

It's like shoto's in SFIV, they win at range and up close against most characters. It's just crappy character design.
 

Doug Nguyen

Well-Known Member
Th
The way I see it is you have to run forward and throw out a mid kick counter which is bullshit. His 66K should still be unsafe on block like it used to be. I just hate knowing that he will beat me out every time up close and at range.

It's like shoto's in SFIV, they win at range and up close against most characters. It's just crappy character design.
Exactly. I should probably try him out in training mode to see his frame data and attack data, for countering.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
So how do people feel about Jann Lee? This match up feels terrible in this game. He is impossible to beat when it comes to his spacing game and he is quicker up close in every regard, jab and mid strikes.

So how do you guys deal with him. Outside of relying on counters I see no good strategy for him.

I feel that bukuho shuts out his most damage offense and his linearity makes him easier to sidestep. When you're close you should use your crushes to beat him out. Bokuho 6p will crush and beat most of his offense.
 

Doug Nguyen

Well-Known Member
I feel that bukuho shuts out his most damage offense and his linearity makes him easier to sidestep. When you're close you should use your crushes to beat him out. Bokuho 6p will crush and beat most of his offense.
Good idea, in writing this seems like it should work great. Ill try to use these tips.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
Good idea, in writing this seems like it should work great. Ill try to use these tips.

Well think about what do Jann Lees love doing most from mid-distance 66k and his gunner. Bokuho duck beats it quite easily and being in stance naturally makes Jann Lee alter his gameplan for this match up.
 

Doug Nguyen

Well-Known Member
Well think about what do Jann Lees love doing most from mid-distance 66k and his gunner. Bokuho duck beats it quite easily and being in stance naturally makes Jann Lee alter his gameplan for this match up.
I need to work on my BKO ducking. I sometimes over do it, im just ducking for dayyyys.
 

AngryWorm

Active Member
5-5 vs Hitomi sounds about right. I'd like to play that match vs you though. Even online, I think we might be able to confirm it one way or the other.

Solid post. I did this for Hitomi but was told that match ups didn't matter in 3d fighters.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
Helena vs Gen Fu is not 4 - 6. He trashes her in every way. His pokes 6P and P are faster than hers, he does more damage and he's safer. Fun fact for Helena players, block Gen Fu's 3KPP and try to crush the guard crushing high punch at the end with P+K. The result is actually pretty disturbing. Only her side step works here seeing as Gen Fu is nigh impossible to crush. You can't even duck his 6P string because the second hit rises from the ground.

This is 7 - 3 at best, He trashed her in DOA4 and with her being universally nerfed and him getting buffed and receiving zero nerfs it is a hell of a lot worse now.

In regards to Jann Lee I call BS on BKO being his downfall, limiting his options with BKO means having space to get into BKO whilst not being at frame disadvantage which she can't do from any attack so you would have to be at range for that to happen. She loses her mobility when in BKO so you can't space for shit and he has a very good mid kick that will hit her even if she ducks.

Up close he has an 11 frame mid punch that will trash everything she does, it also has a low follow up to stuff BKO duck. This match up is not 5 - 5, the only thing that made it good in DOA4 was her P+K instantly crushing all his moves and it doesn't work that way now.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
5-5 vs Hitomi sounds about right. I'd like to play that match vs you though. Even online, I think we might be able to confirm it one way or the other.

Solid post. I did this for Hitomi but was told that match ups didn't matter in 3d fighters.

We should get some games in.

They matter they just aren't as damning as some 2D fighters.

Helena vs Gen Fu is not 4 - 6. He trashes her in every way. His pokes 6P and P are faster than hers, he does more damage and he's safer. Fun fact for Helena players, block Gen Fu's 3KPP and try to crush the guard crushing high punch at the end with P+K. The result is actually pretty disturbing. Only her side step works here seeing as Gen Fu is nigh impossible to crush. You can't even duck his 6P string because the second hit rises from the ground.

This is 7 - 3 at best, He trashed her in DOA4 and with her being universally nerfed and him getting buffed and receiving zero nerfs it is a hell of a lot worse now.

In regards to Jann Lee I call BS on BKO being his downfall, limiting his options with BKO means having space to get into BKO whilst not being at frame disadvantage which she can't do from any attack so you would have to be at range for that to happen. She loses her mobility when in BKO so you can't space for shit and he has a very good mid kick that will hit her even if she ducks.

Up close he has an 11 frame mid punch that will trash everything she does, it also has a low follow up to stuff BKO duck. This match up is not 5 - 5, the only thing that made it good in DOA4 was her P+K instantly crushing all his moves and it doesn't work that way now.

Eh, he wasn't great against her in DOA4, mostly even matchup. Helena does well alright against Fu in DOA5. Up close he's a threat, but his lack of range allows for a more fair fight at mid distance.

Jann Lee is probably not as even as I thought, because the character himself is bat shit stupid. But BKO does give her better defensive options than most other characters.
 
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