Alternative counter system in DoA?

[Dutch Samurai]

I'm not sure if anyone has come up with this idea before, so please forgive me if it's not original.

I keep seeing arguments about how DoA's counter system is considered cheap and too easy to abuse, even the fixed 4-point version used in DoA5. People keep talking about how even a 6-point system separating high and low kicks and punches would be even better. And how countering in stun needs to be eliminated.

So how about this; return to a 3-point system, but make it so you can only counter a strike or strike combo if you are blocking first.

The way it would work would be, if you're defending against a strike by blocking (either directional block or by pressing the block button) that would be the only time you'd be able to perform a hold. Make it so that when you defend as the strike is in progress, there will be a few frames in it's progression for the defender to stop blocking, press a directional and block button again to perform a counter. If this action is performed after the window of opportunity, or the wrong directional is used, the strike connects as if the person weren't blocking. And this would apply to both single strikes as well as combos. If the window of opportunity is missed on a strike in a combo/wrong directional used, the strike of missed combo, in addition to the following strikes will connect as usual. No holding in stun, just eat all damage.

In effect, I think it would make the hold a type of punishment for overly aggressive strikers, but can also be dangerous to try to perform unless the timing is perfect.

Any thoughts?

 

[Seppu]

for this to work, lows that cause a deep stun on nh would need to be changed first.

 

[dawnbringer]

Your first suggestion is basically free guard cancels (guard reversals) that require you to guess right. You can research how this mechanics work in other games.

Your second suggestion is about removing holds from stun. Why not remove critical stun then? There's no point in critical stun other than permitting holds, unthrowable state, and damage scaling.

 

[Dutch Samurai]

Very true. Critical stuns would be pointless. Except to take damage. As if you got stunned in real life. But on the other hand I'm of the opinion that there should only be a few attacks that cause critical stun in the first place.

 

[dawnbringer]

Except to take damage. As if you got stunned in real life.

For this there's regular hit stun.

 

[Nightpup]

I've always thought 4 point was just fine, but if you're in stun, all your holds should turn into non-damaging parries. All it would do is shove the enemy off of you with maybe +2 or +3 advantage.

 

[Dutch Samurai]

For this there's regular hit stun.

You have a point there.

I've always thought 4 point was just fine, but if you're in stun, all your holds should turn into non-damaging parries. All it would do is shove the enemy off of you with maybe +2 or +3 advantage.

I actually really like that idea. Parrying in critical stun is a more reasonable alternative, I think, than pulling off a full counter maneuver. It just makes more sense. If you're in critical stun, realistically, the most you really could hope for is a parry because you'd be trying to regain control of a situation. Full counters in critical stun make it seem as though you instantaneously just get it back. And seeing as some strikes already only have the option of being parried, sidestepped, or ducked, it shouldn't be too hard to implement something like that in future games.

 

[synce]

I think there's a much simpler solution to fixing the counter system... just combine and tweak elements DOA3 and DOA5. Keep the 4 point system but further increase the recovery frames and decrease the active frames, make all launchers get max height during a wrong guess, and increase counter hold damage to compensate.

 

[X51]

What I'd modify is that if you guess wrong you get hit no matter if you low guessed a high strike.

 

[grap3fruitman]

DOA's filled with too much bullshit. Let's go back to something more simple and honest, let's go back to DOA1:

• 2-point parry
• just a few character-specific unique defensive holds
• no holds in stun
• minimal stunning
• minimize guessing by toning down the number of strings that end in a different high, mid or low variation
• minimize guessing by removing string delay almost completely, leave it unique to a move here and there

I often see the comment that DOA is the easiest fighter to pick up and I think that's false just because the game is filled with so much, for lack of a better term, "bullshit." DOA has too many variables to everything and that's really convoluted and confusing to anyone just now trying to pick up the game. The scenario I'm suggesting creates a game where we have a few basic rules to follow and creates some harmony from the mess we have now.

 

[Nightpup]

So yeah, no. I don't want everything unique to DOA gone completely, grap3. Geez.

 

[grap3fruitman]

It's sad that the only thing you find unique about DOA is all the bullshit.

 

[Nightpup]

It's sad that the only thing you find unique about DOA is all the bullshit.

It's sad that you want DOA to be that much like the other 3D fighters.
Let's see:

• You want the critical stun system practically gone. That's DOA's most unique feature right there. The only problem I have with the stun system is being able to hold to reduce the time you're stunned.
• You want there to be significantly less mixups. That pretty much eliminates DOA's spin on Risk Vs. Reward.
• I agree partly on string delay though. Some of it is complete bullshit.
• You want no holds in stun. Period. Considering 95% of the moves in the game cause stun, you're practically eliminating DOA's second most unique feature.
• 2-point parry? Nothing but reversals all day. Striker characters are no longer efficient when you just go HHHHHHHHHH. Grapplers will be the only efficient characters.

 

[Berzerk!]

There's nothing wrong with the counter system as such.

The question is of the exact balancing of the counter frames, the damage they cause, whether they knock down or just provide advantage. But a universal counter is a great and unique element of the DOA fighting game system.

All it needs is tweaking, but its quite good as it is right now.

 

[grap3fruitman]

It's sad that you want DOA to be that much like the other 3D fighters.

I want DOA to play more sensibly, yes. It can still be unique and do this.

You want the critical stun system practically gone. That's DOA's most unique feature right there. The only problem I have with the stun system is being able to hold to reduce the time you're stunned.

You have no problem with have to play the stun game and guess correctly 4 or 5 times before you can launch for the same reward as in DOA++, 2 or 3? I do want to try a system closer to DOA1 again. It saved a dying Tecmo for a reason.

You want there to be significantly less mixups. That pretty much eliminates DOA's spin on Risk Vs. Reward.

"Mix-ups" are different than guessing on top of guessing on top of guessing on top of guessing. We have the latter and, yes, I do want to minimize that. I don't want another DOA game based solely around guessing. I want a DOA game about actual fighting where most of the mind games revolve around the initial hit, not all these variables leading up to several hits later.

You want no holds in stun. Period. Considering 95% of the moves in the game cause stun, you're practically eliminating DOA's second most unique feature.

"Unique" doesn't mean the same as "good." I want minimal stunning, which is why that was one of my bullet points. I'd like a return to the number of stuns in like DOA1 or DOA++.

What does a stun mean now if I can't hold during it? It means I'm scared as shit of moves that cause a stun. Maybe it means I have to play defense before getting hit. What's this? I'm playing a fighting game and it has "Dead or Alive" in the title? This is ludicrous!

2-point parry? Nothing but reversals all day. Striker characters are no longer efficient when you just go HHHHHHHHHH. Grapplers will be the only efficient characters.

Nothing but reversals all day? Uh, what have you been playing lately? It's exponentially worse now than back in DOA1. Have you played that game at all? The strikers are all top tier because they get the most reward after a stun.

 

[Dutch Samurai]

I want DOA to play more sensibly, yes. It can still be unique and do this.


You have no problem with have to play the stun game and guess correctly 4 or 5 times before you can launch for the same reward as in DOA++, 2 or 3? I do want to try a system closer to DOA1 again. It saved a dying Tecmo for a reason.

Well yeah, but it saved a dying Tecmo back in 1996. More is expected from DoA and fighting games in general today. Don't get me wrong, I love the original game. But changing things up isn't always a bad thing.

 

[d3v]

Give holds in stun their own meter.

 

[Blackula]

Well yeah, but it saved a dying Tecmo back in 1996. More is expected from DoA and fighting games in general today. Don't get me wrong, I love the original game. But changing things up isn't always a bad thing.

Except for in this case, they changed it so much for the worse now the game is ridiculed by others and a lot of people stay away from it. At least in the US that is. There are us who play the game and enjoy it regardless of how the system is, but that isn't getting others playing the game. And that's the one thing we want for this game and this series. To get the same respect that other fighters get.

If you ask anyone else here in the US who doesn't play DOA why they don't, they'll pretty much give you the very same reasons Grap3 gave. And I pretty much agree with Grap3 on this one.

 

[Blackula]

Give holds in stun their own meter.

Meter??? Trololo???

 

[Blackula]

You know, I was talking to Alex Donalds about this very thing on Facebook. I guess here's a great place to share my idea.

So first the premise for my idea. One concern of people who don't play DOA is the fact that you can hold out of stun. I personally never liked the idea. The person going on offense shouldn't be worrying about going on offense. If a defender is getting stunned, it was his own damn fault for getting stunned. If Team Ninja decides to never get rid of the stun system, then some changes seriously need to be made.

1. Holding when not in stun will damage your opponent (using both 3 point holds and 6 point holds)
2. If you hold out of stun and land a successful hold, it will not damage the attacker and will only disrupt the flow like maybe push him back but not damage him. The attacker should not be penalized for going on the offense after landing a successful stun. And he should not have to be afraid to go on the offense.
3. This is where 6 point holds come in. If you want to disrupt the flow of attack, then it will be a 3pt hold that will do no damage to the attacker. If you want to damage the opponent by holding out of a stun, it must be an advanced hold motion type of hold. This means everyone would have a 6 point hold. This means you have to be EXACT if you want to dish damage to your opponent if you're stunned. No random guessing and getting a lucky hold.
4. Return to be like older DOAs. One stun for max height launch. If you get stunned, you get ONE chance to hold out of it otherwise you're going up. There needs to be less emphasis on the stun system.

When I told my friend this who plays Tekken, he actually liked the idea and if a system like this were implemented, he would actually give DOA shot.


Summary:
Not in stun / 3 point or 6 point holds will damage

In stun / 3 point stun would disrupt flow of attacker but net you no damage. 6 point hold would allow you to damage the opponent when holding while stunned.