DOA5U Ayane Match-Ups Discussion

Gill Hustle

Well-Known Member
Let's talk match up strategy!

I think there is plenty info on how to play Ayane correctly, but how about character specifics?

I say this thread be used for " How do I beat a (character name) with Ayane basically.

I'll start. Current problem character :christie:

I don't know enough about her, but it seems like on any level of skill, I just always have a hard time fighting her.

What are the things I really need to look for to punish? How do I make Christie afraid of Ayane?
 

Sean

New Member
i too would like to know how to deal with this match up. ayane cant run on all stages so what can she do up close?
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Ah, I overlooked this, I'll elaborate on the match up later tonight when I have more time.

Also, Ayane can fight just fine up close and at mid range. You guys HAVE to know that by now if you're playing her. She's not a turtler.
 

Sean

New Member
please iHajin, let me know when you get a chance. i havent fought a good christe yet but i feel like characters with good rushdown own my soul
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
please iHajin, let me know when you get a chance. i havent fought a good christe yet but i feel like characters with good rushdown own my soul

I've got you guys covered, no worries. I just don't have "that kind of time" to sit down and give an accurate but thorough breakdown of both match ups at the moment. I was about to do so lastnight but something came up. I'll have them typed out here tonight though since I'll be free by then.

Been pretty busy with helping organize DOA events in SoCal and other projects (and personal irl affairs) throughout the week.
 

AkaShocka

Well-Known Member
Hajin, what's Ayane and Lisa's match up I have been wondering this for a long time. But the real match up I really want to know is Ayane vs Christie.
 

iHajinShinobi

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Standard Donor
Ayane 10/13/12 vs Christie 9/11/14

Up close, Ayane has a 10 frame jab (P), two 13 frame mids (6P/6K), and a 12 frame low jab (2P). Christie has a 9 frame jab (P), an 11 frame mid punch (6P), and a 14 frame low jab into a string (2PPP). 2PPP starts low, goes high, then ends with a mid punch.

Right off the bat, Christie has slight advantage up close due to her speed. However, as I always say, faster speed does not dominate Ayane anywhere. It just means you are not going to be combating faster characters with your fastest mids too often, that's it. When fighting characters with mids that are much faster than yours, you need to make an offensive breakthrough or know the exact amount of frames opponents are at in order to poke out with a 6P.

When fighting Christie up close, you need to be patient and pay close attention to her as she tries passing through your defense. If she's pressuring you with jab strings, block, just block and watch her carefully. She is going to do one of a few things;

- Jab poke you while free cancelling: She will attempt to do anything here, more jab pressure, alternate her attack height, attempt to throw, delay strings, use JAK for mix up (if you see Christie using JAK against you up close OUTSIDE of stun, your answer is always 4P, always).

- Jab(s) into throw
- Jab(s) strings into JAK
- Jab(s) strings: Finishing them immediately or delaying. Delaying her strings can result into her actually delaying or free cancelling.

If you see that Christie is opting to pressure you with jab strings so often, Ayane's crushes will play a huge role here then. 8K, 4P, 1P, 2P, especially 8K and 4P will counter hit her clean.

Christie also has some fairly good high crushes too, not including JAK stance.

- 1P, 1PK
- 2P, 2PP, 2PPP
- 2H+KP, 2H+K H+P

(I may have left something out, sorry if I have)

1P tracks, 2P and 2H+K do not track. Christie's 7K is a good "get the fuck off me" move as well.

Versus Ayane, Christie JAK stance is only dangerous while Ayane IS IN CRITICAL STUN, because if she's not, then Christie is going to get blown up by 4P often (only if you're reacting to JAK stance). Christie becomes a big problem (for any character) once she hits and has you stunned, because you are not going to be stagger escaping out of Christie's stuns. She is too fast and has good deep stuns to keep you locked up.

So if she hits you then goes into JAK stance, you have to guess her 50/50.

Ways to deal with Christie up close;

If Christie is opting for her mids (6P or 6K, 6K is a 13 frame mid kick) more than often, then your jab(s) come into play here, as well as side step (just the side step, do not use a side step followup or you will get counter hit), and your holds. If Christie goes high often, you have your high crushes that I mentioned before. Christie is not winning the low jab pressure route with Ayane, unless you are being slow.

What a lot of Ayane players don't realize, is that our low jab, 2P, is a very important tool up close. It's -4 on block and +0 on hit, and it can change the momentum in our favor all too often because it forces opponents to worry about it. That alone allows us to poke with our mids when we can, or make opponents respond how we want. That's why, when you see me playing, I'm not spamming 2P for the sake of it. I do it to break my opponent's offense AND defense so I can shake the momentum or match in my favor.

You just have to be aware of both your speed and your opponent's speed in order to know how effective your low jab pressure can be in a match up.

Ways to get into Ayane's Comfort Zone safely;

P and 2P, or high crushing.

- P > BT8P: This tactic is golden in any match up and at any moment (unless your back is to the wall).
- 2P: A low jab on counter hit pushes opponents back and gives you breathing room. It's up to you decide whether you will start an offense immediately afterward, or back off a bit in neutral and play a range game or do something defensively.
- If you're high crushing with 4P (or any high crush that will net you some offense), you obviously just scored a counter hit high crush, some solid damage and a scored a knock down. Now it is your chance to go offensive or play defensively. That decision is yours because everyone plays differently.

Fighting at a distance;

Here's the deal here, most players who play this game do not have very good fundamentals or have poor footsies (even some solid competitive players in this game lack good footsies). What makes Ayane a very strong character in this area is not because she has range tools, because anyone can easily run in at you and be in your face again, ignoring your tools. So, that's far from the truth.

What makes Ayane a strong character while at a distance is that players who have a solid defense and strong fundamentals and footsies will take advantage of her range tools and movement because you know how and when they need to be applied in a given situation. You NEED to force opponents to realize that they cannot just run in on you for free whenever they want. You NEED to force them to respect your range and what you actually have and are capable of doing there.

Ayane has solid whiff punishers and great range pokes that compliment her stylish yet viable movement abilities. A combination of the 3 including strong footsies need to be taken into consideration here when playing Ayane's range game. Because it's very easy to run up to her again if you lack the ability to do any of these things.

I am saying this because Ayane dominates Christie at a distance. Christie can make for solid footsies as well (almost any character can) but her options at range are outshined by Ayane's. Ayane doesn't care about Christie's JAK stance at this rate. Christie can be pretty deceptive with JAK options at range, but Ayane's 3H+K and 236K can hit all of her options at the right distance (except for the low sweeps from JAK).

And, Christie has her running low slide kick, but Ayane should be facing forward if she sees that. Christie has 66K as well, and 3P+K options. But, you're not going to try beating out any options at range, you just want Christie to press buttons and/or make a mistake somewhere. So that you can punish her for whiffing, getting sloppy, or getting something blocked or held.

Ayane's range pokes;

- 3P
- KK
- 3H+K
- BT2P
- BT2K
- BT 4H+K
- BT6P
- BT6K
- BT 3KK
- BT PP
- BT PP6KK4: Excellent way of getting in as long as it's blocked.

Ayane's whiff punishers;

- 4K
- 3H+K
- 236K
- BT4K
- BT 4H+K
- BT6P
- 1P+K P
- 1P+K K
- BTH+P
- BT 6H+P
- 7P+K: Yes, you can whiff punish players with a Power Blow (when your PB is activated, obviously).

If I have to label the match up, I'd say it is about 5-5. Ayane can keep Christie out fairly well, and she can fight her up close too. But Christie has better mixups up close and better pressure as well. 4P hurts Christie's JAK stance a lot up close outside of Critical stun. But Christie is very difficult to deal with once she hits you. Neither character totally dominates the other, but both character's strengths work well here as well.

Both have very good damage output so neither really outshines the other in that area.
 
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Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I'll start. Current problem character :christie:
How do I make Christie afraid of Ayane?
AkaShocka said:
what's Ayane and Lisa's match up I have been wondering this for a long time. But the real match up I really want to know is Ayane vs Christie.

Hajin's overview on the Ayane/Christie MU is excellent but I'll add my input also. At the start of the match or R1F. What you want to watch out from Christie is when she uses her 6P,PPP or PPP2P etc. nonsense. Her 2PPP is easily beaten out by Ayane's 2P so lows are a non-issue in close. At the start of rounds I generally spin away because you really don't want to spend a lot of time in Christie's face. Her poking capability is just too good.

The way to handle Christie is to zone her and force her to get creative in how she moves in on you. Her JAK bullshit means little to Ayane at any sort of range. 3H+K and 4P makes short work of it. The only time JAK may be effective is as a mix-up during combos. But majority of the time Ayane laughs at the JAK stance. Be careful of the rolling stance because it can crush mids like 3H+K and roll right under it. Also try to take heed of when Christie uses GB's such as 4P+K. She'll start to use these to open you up along with 2H+KP or her Attack Grabs (eg. 2H+K~T)

The way to make Christie fear Ayane is to make them feel shivers down their spine at the thought of 4P. In other words crush highs and interrupt her when you can with 4P (or 6P if possible) and whiff punish with 3PP for a low level launch. 4P is probably the biggest thorn in Christie's side. Make her dread the power of the 4P! Make her feel like she can't run her shit on you because you'll punish her with 4P or 3PP.

Ayane doesn't exactly excel at keeping people locked up and on the defensive but Christie players hate being on the defensive especially against characters with good mid or low tracking ability (which would include Ayane's 4P or 1P). It also helps that Christie's throws and holds are mostly shit, though I'd still be careful of 4T resets. Compared to other characters Christie rarely gets good damage on a Hi-counter throw.

As for Lisa, I'm less familiar with her, but she can appear surprisingly similar to Ayane. She feels like Ayane with jumping OH's because of her preference for fighting at range, her evasiveness and a reliance on different stances such as her BT. Unlike Ayane, Lisa is somewhat slow and is more vulnerable to being rushed down. Unfortunately Ayane's not that good at rushing people down so for fighting Lisa you may want to try and bait her to throw something out that you can whiff punish with 3PP for example. When Lisa "dances" around in her various stances, always be weary of when she'll throw out her jumping OH's because she does have quite of bit of them from front stance or BT stance.

The main aim when fighting Lisa is to keep her momentum from her by pressuring her before she can get her offense started. Although Ayane can't really rush down that much, her pokes are faster than Lisa's so it's ok to get in her face. She'll be forced to have to use her evasive moves to try and shift momentum (her crush abilities are pretty good). At range it'll become a game of who can bait the other first. Watch out for her 66K or jumping OHs and other such moves which are essentially a mix-up. Also don't forget that Lisa's Front CB is a Mid K and her BT CB is a Mid P. Lisa's throws are also very strong so take heed when holding (although when you get used to them, Lisa's strings can appear a bit more "obvious" then some other character's strings). Lastly punish the 1PP, 1PKK... etc. bullshit whenever possible.

For me, I submit this troublesome man :genfu:.

I hate his guts...
 
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iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Actually, Ayane is quite capable of keeping players locked up through her 2P pressure, and quite well at that. 2P has decent range on it for being a 12 frame low jab (whereas other characters actually do not), including it's back turned low jab (BT2P which is 13 frames).

I'll have to actually write up a little article explaining it's uses at some point since Xdest's guide on it is long gone.

I'll thoroughly explain the Ayane vs Genfu match up after I've played Sweet Revenge a lot more for better experience there. I play both characters (although I don't care to be great with Genfu, only Ayane) but it's been a long while since I've played an extremely solid Genfu.

Just know that Genfu is her only bad match up, though.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
Prolly too early to ask but how does Ein face Ayane in 5U? I figure 4K is good when the Ayane player gets impatient but I'm not sure what else I should try to do.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Ayane (10/13/12) vs Genfu (10/11/15)

Some beginner notes here; Genfu's jab is -2 on normal hit and block. His 2P is +0 on hit and -4 on block.

Alright, so this is literally Ayane's only bad match up in this game. It's pretty uphill because if Ayane is making mistakes, Genfu will just rape the shit out of her like she does to anyone else that makes mistakes.

What makes Genfu so strong against Ayane? He can effectively shut down her better tools with his high and mid parries. Moreso his mid parry, as he MUST be quite precise to parry her highs. His fastest mid at 11 frames, 6P, beats everything that isn't her jab. His throw 214T gives him good damage into +10 frame advantage into mix up.

His 236T gives him his 50/50 vortex into mix up. 3P is a powerful high crush, and it's lift stun can wreck any character, as it creates a nasty 50/50 in his favor. Either hold the 3PP follow up or get blown up by a throw or 4P+K into feint stun.

Genfu also does not have issues with range anymore, due to his new and improved (and awesome) 214P dash, and can also follow up with a mid punch. Semi-decent stun on hit, -4 on block and is distance safe. 66P (which is also his running P) is -5 on block and stuns on counter hit. 1P also has some range and hit's low, stuns on counter hit. His mid parries can catch something at range (if timed well) and bring her right back into CQC.

Genfu in general;

Like Ayane, Genfu also has solid stun > launch options. Any stun from a high or mid can lead into his 4P+K feint stun (also a feint stun on counter hit) that will lead into his 64P > 16P shoulder for solid damage. 64P is amazing for a crumple launcher in stun. 3PP crumple stun is extremely nasty, and if you do not stagger escape 3PP, the 33P follow ups are 100% guaranteed into guaranteed high damage. He has a 44P that guard breaks on block and guarantees a BT8P follow up for guaranteed damage.

Now, given all of this, it looks pretty grim for Ayane, for sure. However, this match up is still very winnable for her. I have gotten so comfortable in this match up after playing Sweet Revenge a lot while I was in NorCal. So I'll explain why I no longer view this match up as terrible, and only uphill.

Let's start with CQC (Close Quarters Combat). At the start of the round, Genfu can get in Ayane's face right away, most may feel like "I need to get away!", and panic. For me, it doesn't bother me because I already know both mine and Genfu's options for CQC (especially since I play both characters so well).

When you are playing Ayane, these are your rules you need to abide by with Genfu in CQC:

- Be patient as possible, do not let him put any fear into you just because he's close to you.
- Block, you cannot beat Genfu out anywhere unless frames are changing.
- Hold his mids so he'll know that you are paying attention.

Genfu can only poke you with his 3K string if he's conditioned you to block something. Because his 3K is a 14 frame mid kick, your highs and your mids will counter hit 3K.

I highly advise you to be patient (and in general) in this match up in CQC, because there are 4 things that you REALLY need to recognize in CQC from Genfu;

- His jab is -2 on normal hit AND on block. This actually makes a big difference because every other strike after this are two frames slower. This opens opportunities for your jab, your KK and your mids. And even though Genfu has his parries, he still has to guess which parry to nullify you with, or have a proper read on you.

- Block and just pay close attention to his block string pressure. PPP is -5, PPK is -10, PP2P and PP2K are both low throw punishable. 6PPP is low throw punishable but has incredibly long delays. Do not attempt to strike often under 6P pressure because these delays will counter hit you for either a lift stun (6PP) or crumple stun (6PPP). Just block because Genfu will have to try throwing you eventually. Throw attempts are what you want to counter hit, with either 4P or 4P+K, ideally.

- 3K will be just a 3K, 3KP, or 3KP6P/3KPPP. You want to hold the follow up to 3K, but Genfu knows this so it's a 50/50 on block that works for him. Because he can mix in his throw attempts too. But this is only effective depending on how the player is using 3K. Some will go full force, always finishing the string. Some, a smarter player, will keep you honest with it, with a mix of free cancelling, delay, and some times a full string. 3KPP guard breaks so it is used more often than 3KP6P (which is unsafe). 3KP6P will be used when your back is to a wall, some times.

- 44P guard breaks on block and guarantees a BT8P follow up into guaranteed damage (or his vortex on lighter characters). Launches on all hit status into guaranteed damage (or his vortex) if the 44PP is timed well. This move can be deceptively sneaky when it's mixed in on block, especially when Genfu is applying the vortex. This is probably the only move in CQC I've been more worried about because the rest doesn't actually matter while blocking.

Genfu's strings are very straight forward and unsafe (except for PPP). You block him correctly, then he will have to throw you, which is what you want him to do because you want to score your counter hit and get into Ayane's Comfort Zone (mid range). You should be blocking Genfu well, counter hit his throw attempts (if you can react to throw animations and are not guessing), stay wary that his jab is -2 on hit and block, hold him, and throw punishing his unsafety. If you allow Genfu to get away with unsafety, you are allowing him to win the match.

Proper throw punishment and counter hits will allow you to keep Genfu out. Making your jab pokes, P > BT8P and 6P jab crush counter hits really count will also allow you to score some offensive and a chance to keep Genfu out as well. Once you score a counter hit or a knock down somewhere, you can start your offense and make Genfu the defensive one here. You just have to be careful because you are still in his face and your offense needs to count, before he breaks it with 6P, 3P or a very well timed parry.

Let's talk Mid range battle. Now, in this area, Ayane can be very effective here as long as you aren't being careless and sloppy. Genfu still has a few tools to stop you if you are or you make a mistake somewhere. His parries will bring you right back into CQC and guarantee him follow ups into mix up if you aren't careful. But he HAS to be very precise with those parries to make them effective at range. His 66P and 214P will stop you as well if you get sloppy.

Ayane can keep anyone out when her tools are being applied well, this includes Genfu. BT2P, BT2K are very solid at keep away. So is P4P, infact all of her better range pokes and keep out tools work well here. But keep in mind that you do not HAVE to poke at opponents all the time. Applying good spacing/footsies can make anyone have a hard time getting in on you, especially when you are effectively forcing them to whiff something and make other mistakes.

You can effectively turtle against Genfu, OR, you can force him into a footsies war with you and try to make sure you are winning that war. To keep him on his toes. Because at this point, the player with the most patience is the one winning that war. But Ayane has the better range tools on her side, you just have to make sure to apply them properly.

After getting solid experience against Sweet Revenge, and myself understanding this character well, I have not had issues with any other Genfu in this match up. And I'm a little TOO comfortable in this match up now.

I still believe it to be 4-6 in Genfu's favor because his advantages do matter here, however, it is not super terrible. It is definiely winnable when you are paying attention.
 

Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Thanks for this Hajin, probably the best overview of this torturous MU that we'll possibly get. As for the Rachel MU, she's actually not that bad to Ayane. GenFu is miles worse. Even Leon can hurt more under the right conditions.

Next troublesome character :hitomi:

This spunky former Tomboy can give me fits at times.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Yeah I'll cover the Rachel match up as well, that shit isn't hard at all. I'll get to Hitomi and Ein as well soon.
 

ShinMaruku

Well-Known Member
Been having some issues against Misty. Her fast attacks keep stuffing me forcing me to use simple pokes into a launch or some clever throw punishes and trying to space her out.
 

Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Been having some issues against Misty. Her fast attacks keep stuffing me forcing me to use simple pokes into a launch or some clever throw punishes and trying to space her out.

For Momiji you want to space her out because she generally fights better in close than Ayane does especially with that i12 6P of hers. Momiji's moves can have good range but it's much easier to anticipate what she'll do if you're out of her poking range. At range beware of 66PP because it has deceptive range and can clip and launch you easily. Everytime you block it, throw punish to discourage its use. Usually Momiji's best option at range is to use Running H+K in order to gain +1. The move is high so you can attempt to high crush it with 4P. KK and 2H+K are two moves that might be used from mid range.

Throughout most of the match, if Momiji isn't trying to stun-launch you to death with her safe pokes, she's trying to work her Tenku Double Jump shenanigans on you. Her Tenku moves consist of a High K CB, A Mid P bounce launcher, A jumping throw launcher and an uncommon Mid P PB. Under most circumstances you'd want to prioritize not getting hit by the CB and can defend against it by low-holding (or you can catch it outright with a high hold). This will beat the CB and the Jumping Throw but not the Mid P Fireball. If the opponent isn't using the throw, you can sidestep Tenku K & Tenku P. For the Mid P PB, I rarely see it get used but just block it or hold it if you're feeling frisky. She will be at +13 if blocked as a PB however.

The key to this matchup is not letting Momiji poke & launch you to death and to not fall into her Tenku traps. Momiji's pokes are quite safe so she can use them fairly freely in close. Just play keepaway and let her come to you like Kasumi. Momiji's throws aren't too damaging, though 41236T is the strongest at 93 dmg on Hi-counter. Two really annoying low pokes to look out for are 1PP/1PK & 2H+K. Try your best to throw punish them when blocked because these moves can be really abusable and irritating. 2H+K can be tricky to punish if done from a bit of range. The move Super TC's too (can crush mids).

As long as you don't lose patience and space well, Ayane can deal with Momiji alright. Just try to make it a long-range battle.
 

Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Oh, LOL. My bad. Both Kas & Mom are annoying in close though. The difference is that Momiji has more moves with good range than Kasumi meaning that she can hang back a bit if she wants, but Ayane wins the range game against both.
 
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