DOA5LR Ayane Newbie

Makeshift

New Member
Hi, I’m a pretty new Ayane player and want to develop my play with her further but seem to have lost my way a little. DOA 5 LR has been the first fighting game I’ve tried to learn properly but have flirted with previous DOA editions and am quite familiar with the triangle system and basics.

First up wanted to say that there are lots of great resources in this forum which I have spent a lot of time studying up on. I also have watched a large number of videos on HajinShinobi’s, FON’s and Aelivia’s YouTube channels but it doesn’t seem to be helping my games or understanding much. I’m a bit confused about:

1) I understand the basic concept of stunning, extending the stun then launching and juggling for maximum damage. However, when I’m fighting I find that if I premeditate a combo the opposition blocks the initial parts or when I hit a jab or mid punch I’m too slow to follow up or even get confused as to exactly which moves I can use to follow up. I know that juggles have a separate thread but for a newcomer, which are the must learn first combos off of the basic pokes/stuns (I’ve completed 90% of the combo challenge)?

2) In stressful situations or CQC/whiff/blocked string punishment if I’m unsure I can throw, I always seem to default to a 4P – K combo which seems to go under a lot of strikes. Unfortunately that makes me pretty predictable and I feel I’m also missing out on damage. What other inputs would be good in those situations?

3) In HajinShinobi’s tutorial on Twitch, he briefly mentioned what he used to “open people up” at close range, however he got a bit distracted so I’m a bit confused as to exactly how I should approach opening people up with Ayane at close and medium range (I know you’re not meant to just string into block but that isn’t the same as knowing what I should actually be doing).

4) Finally, I play with a bit offline with a friend who plays Leon. I find he tends to crush/interrupt my strikes a lot and then punish with P6PP(hold down) or mixups with low kicks (but I do tend to string into block too much). Does anyone have any tips for playing as Ayane vs Leon?

Would be grateful for any help :)
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
First things first, let's get the part about juggles out of the way; After launching an opponent, if you are facing forward, your easiest juggle can simply be PPPK. after launching an opponent and your back is facing them, you want to do BTPP4PP7K (this is actually going to be your BnB juggle universally). My combo video will also demonstrate different launchers and various juggles you can use from each launch height (whether low, mid or high launch heights. These levels will vary depending on critical level threshold 1, 2 and 3, with 3 being the highest);

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/hajinshinobis-doa5u-viable-ayane-combo-video.3554/

So when trying to get your damage from juggles, it's best to practice them with and after launching the opponent with different launchers. All demonstrated in the video above, and includes a list of launchers and juggles that were in the video. Should be a good reference.

Now, for situations involving punishment, in DOA, throw punishment is the most generic form of punishment because throws are not breakable in this game, and the frame data working a little differently than other fighting games. This is an exception with neutral throws (neutral throw is done by just pressing throw) and for combo throws that require the aggressor to do additional inputs to complete the combo throw. When Combo Throw appears on the screen, that is when you are prompt to hit the throw button to try and break the throw attempt.

Normally any single strike or string that ends in -8 frame disadvantage is considered throw punishable. Anything from -6 to -7 is considered semi-safe, therefore cannot be truly forward thrown by i7 frame throws. Anything from -1 to -5 is considered safe, where throw attempts become risky since this is not throw punishable on unsafety.

So for the case of trying to punish, it's a good idea to use your forward throw for throw punishment. Let's say you are fighting Hayate, and he does 6PP and you block it. His 6PP is -11 on block, so you're now able to punish him for it by forward throwing him with 6T. Throw punishment has to be done immediately, however, otherwise you risk missing damage and getting hit if you are too late to throw punish. There is indeed strike punishment in this game, but I want to keep it simple for you, for now. Also keep in mind that you're playing a character that has two i7 frame throws for throw punishment, 6T and 4T.

The 4P goes under highs since 4P itself actually has the ability to high crush high strikes, more specifically jabs, jab string attempts, standing neutral kicks, or moves that simply strike high with no mid hitting hitbox.

Here is how you'll want to start practicing on your attempts to open people up in CQC;

Ayane is the not the kind of character who can string herself on someone's block so often, at all. That is fastest way she will lose, instead, her strings work a lot better once you've established a pretty good free cancel/delay game, basically conditioning. In order to do this, you have to learn to get comfortable using and free cancelling things like jab and PP, in conjunction with 2P and Jab/PP from her Back Turned stance. And remembering that jab from Front Turned stance leaves you in Back Turned stance, while BT jab leaves you in Front Turned stance.

Jab and 2P go hand in hand for forcing people to press buttons because it immediately becomes irritating getting poked at often. Your jab is i10 frames and your low jab is i12 frames, so Ayane is one of a few characters with the fastest low in the game, and it's +0 on neutral hit, good reset pressure. As SOON as jab gets blocked, you are -1 with your Back Turned, this is very good because the opponent is always put into a guessing situation from this, always.

Reasons for this are;

1) You can delay jab into PP up to i17 frames without being interrupted by high or mid strikes, you score a counter hit if so, and PP tracks.
2) You have P4P as well which is a high to mid hitting strike that leaves Ayane in Back Turned stance. +0 on neutral hit (+1 at tip range), -5 on block (-4 at tip range), safe. You can delay this string pretty well, up to i21 frames, and even delaying it will catch someone's button press for counter hit stun.
3) Jab puts you BT (Back Turned stance), you have full access to your options from BT stance, including BT T.
4) Things like P > BT8P and P4P > BT8P are very good to mix up often because the opponent cannot react to this since jab makes you respect Ayane on block. P > BT8P can put the fight back at Round 1 Fight neutral space, and can also force people to whiff buttons and let you whiff punish. Or just create space with P > BT8P.
5) You get immediate access to BT6K, which is a frame trap on block +0 (+1 at a little range) and short push back. Your mix up from a blocked BT6K not only allows for strike mix up, but also for Ayane's Integrated Movement as well (1P+K or 7P).

You're basically able to become unpredictable after jab gets blocked since you have tons of options to utilize. And these things will all work out once you practice them and learn to grow comfortable with them. This is the only character in the game that actually gets to create their on block pressure this way so quickly, and safely.

For mid range, the tools I suggest you learn to get comfortable with for now are;

1) 6PK - 6P and 6PK are very good for Ayane and are versatile for both up close and range pokes. 6P is i13 frames and actually has quite a large hitbox so with good spacing, it will stop a lot of approaches from the opponent quite well. 6PK can do the same thing and if it's blocked at a distance, then it is distance safe at -6 and cannot be punished (very good string to help fight at mid range, approach with and even keepout).

2) 3P is one of Ayane's standard range BnB moves, as it serves it's purpose by letting you control space when used right, and a way to keep someone out as well. Has follow ups, one hits mid and can launch on counter hit or Critical Stun threshold. The other hits low and gives +12 frame advantage on neutral hit, or stuns on counter hit and Critical Stun threshold for +25 frame advantage (+18 at fastest stagger escape). 3P is also very good on counter hit and Critical Stun threshold and forces the opponent to guess at a 50/50 because the mid follow up can launch and the low can stun, and you're also able to free cancel and strike another way. 3PP and 3PK are unsafe on block and punishable, so you want to be mindful of this if you're not hitting anything.

3) 3H+K - i19 frame tracking mid kick, covers a lot of distance in front of Ayane and is safe at -3. Bound stun on all hit status, you can see follow ups for 3H+K from my combo video above. This move allows you to control hittable space between you and the opponent really well as long as you space it properly (everything you do at any range will always require good spacing). 3H+K > BT8P is a very good strategy, whether it is blocked or not. Another great thing about this move is that, once it's done, people always want to try hitting or throwing you for it, which is exactly what you want and is your chance to whiff punish them for trying.

4) 5K - i12 frame tracking high kick, and obviously it has follows with KK. K has very solid range to it, tracks, and it serves as both a great keep out tool, and a range poke. The same is said about BT PK as well, which gives Ayane access to her front turned PPKK string. BT PK also tracks.

5) BT 2K – i18 frame low sweep that tracks while back turned, -12 on block. Leaves Ayane front turned. BT 2K is a very good range poke and keep out tool. It is also range safe. Slightly knocks back on all hit status when at a distance. And stuns on all hit status when up close.

6) BT 3KKK/2K – A series of two low kicks into a mid kick from the BT3 spin. The second option is a series of three low kicks, with the final kick being a true low sweep and guard breaks on block. The entire string tracks, and the mid kick option is unholdable if the second low sweep is hit confirmed. This string is very good because it forces the opponent to hold low (must-hold), because they eat the whole string if they don't. You can also use this string from things like 6P3 and P+KP3/BTP+K3.

For this I would honest suggest just the BT3K though as it is actually very good to poke with at range, and it forces the opponent to crouch and block low. So if you're able to use this comfortable, you can later get adept at applying pressure with it and BT3 itself because it will almost always force the opponent to do something about it.

As for the match with Leon, he has a difficult time approaching Ayane, using what's mentioned above is enough to keep him out (obviously other tools as well). Up close you have all the speed, but simple things like mixing up jab/PP with 2P is always very good to make him do something about it, allowing you dictate the fight up close. I would advise taking Leon into training mode and learning what his strings are so you know what they look like, but definitely pace that so you'll slowly remember his stuff.

As for my stream tutorial, I honestly feel I could have done a lot better with it so I apologize for being sloppy with it. I've already planned to just do a video tutorial and upload it here and to my Youtube this month, so that will actually happen soon.

Hope this helps, if you have any questions you are more than welcome to ask.
 
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Lulu

Well-Known Member
I have no advice to offer (I found Ayane too confusing to use)..... but I can be your Cheer Leader:
You can do it buddy ! I believe in you. ;)

Actually theres one thing I can say, if you find that your having a hard time sustaining a stun in your set ups then you can try memorizing your attacks 2 at a time...... if that makes sense. Usually when I play, once I get my stun I carefully choose my attacks one at a time. However when I'm learning a new set up I often delay for too long then accidentily lose the stun, to prevent this from happening I simply memorise two different attacks is if they were one.... like with Mila, I think of her 4K into Feint P as a single move and will often do it in that order like clock work.

Its not a habbit you want to get accustom to so eventually you're going to have to not depend on it as you get better.

Anyway, Go get'em Tiger !!!
 

Makeshift

New Member
@Lulu, thank you for the encouragement and tips! I will definitely use it as a learning aid.

@iHajinShinobi You're a hero, great post, really appreciated.

Your tutorial was still useful, even if you were disappointed so I look forward to your video!

I don't think I was particularly clear on my 4P - K habit, I meant that I seem to automatically default to this when I have no idea which buttons to push but want to hit something. I will try to throw instead but sometimes I'm not necessarily punishing someone, just interrupting their button pushes. From the contents of your post I need to be clear in my head about whether we're approaching neutral stance and need to be jabbing or they're unsafe so I need to punish with a i7 throw. Do you commonly use other crushes to interrupt strings or stop someone starting a string?

I do have a question regarding defence, I'm slowly managing to kick my habit of spamming mid punch holds until I connect with one or get knocked down. In the short term, I actually seem to be taking more damage by not interrupting many combos (and my stagger escaping could sure use some work). Is there anything I can do to help my defence except slowly learning all character's common attack strings and trying to hold based upon their habits and prediction instead of guessing?

I also am not really sure what I should be doing when I have knocked an opponent down as I'm forced into a 50:50 guess of mid/low wake up kick or have to back out of range and lose any gained frame/momentum advantage. Are there any basic tips you could give me for once I've knocked some one down/am about to and how to avoid having to continually make this guess?

Thanks
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
The habit of defaulting to 4P as common retaliation is a habit a lot of players who pick up this character do a lot. Better players will punish this habit with ease. But 4P is a good move to score a counter hit launch for damage, more rewarding this way if you're able to read someone trying to strike high so often or delaying their string attempts so much.

As for your question on the use of crushes to interrupt or stop string start up, yes and it depends on the situation (the opponent player). In general, you have 8K, 4P, 2P, 1P, 6P (can crush jabs at initial start up and is also stance specific) for this. If someone goes high so often, these moves (especially the 8K) will give them something to think about.

Interrupting strings in general though, that is a bit tougher at first, because you have to develop the ability to read when an opponent is going to delay or free cancel something. Times like these, personally I go with jab, 2P, 6P, 6K, 5K, or 4P. I will use jab, 2P, 6P or 5K because most instances are from someone trying to delay certain strings that have fast follow ups, so crushes won't do much there. A 6P in this case will always be rewarding on counter hit because 6P forces a must-hold 50/50 every time you stun someone with it (they have to guess at 6PP, 6PK, 6P3P and 6P3K string. Five options if you want to include free cancelling. This is forceful because you cannot stagger escape or instant hold to defend against these options at all).

5K is also very rewarding because like 6P, it's forcing a must-hold 50/50 of K6 and KK.

For defense, you answered the question yourself;

Is there anything I can do to help my defence except slowly learning all character's common attack strings and trying to hold based upon their habits and prediction instead of guessing?

This is basically what you have to do, along with adaptation to a player's playstyle and habits. The more you get put into different situations so often, the better your defense for it becomes once you understand what your opponent player's options usually are with what they're often doing. Sometimes there will be times you are forced to guess at something, but that only comes from what move is hitting you and the kind of situation that stun puts you in (how I mentioned the situation of 6P in stun up above).

But in short, blocking well will help you in the long run, if you're able to block attacks well enough to where the opponent can't necessarily open you up that well, they are then forced to throw you. Once you get adept at reading the throw attempt, hi counter hit damage will be very rewarding for you. And thus, defense this way will pay off because you won't be that easy to open up on block.

I also am not really sure what I should be doing when I have knocked an opponent down as I'm forced into a 50:50 guess of mid/low wake up kick or have to back out of range and lose any gained frame/momentum advantage. Are there any basic tips you could give me for once I've knocked some one down/am about to and how to avoid having to continually make this guess?

Yes you can actually, for situations where the opponent doesn't tech off the ground, you can force them off the ground with a move that hits at the ground. This is called a force tech. You can see an example of this here. Every time I knocked the Mila player down with a 6K2K, I forced them off the ground with a 2H+K. Force techs have to be well-timed in order to be successful though. Your reward for this is a lot of frame advantage (varies) and not allowing the opponent to tech up themselves or use a WUK (wake up kick).

Situations like this will often come from the 6K2K or juggles ending in 6K2K/PP6P2K knock downs midscreen. For walls, you can look at one of my recent stream archives here. Skip up to 2:10:00 and you will see where I am going over it, I think I had my mic on and off during this stuff though.

Basically, you will see that I am using PP6PK as my wall combo after a wall slam. Then I am whiffing jab and following up with 1P afterward. Whiffing jab is just giving enough frames to make the 1P connect as a ground hit. So in that situation, the opponent does not get a WUK at all off the wall. The opponent can tech up after wall the combo and avoid the 1P, but they have to deal with follow ups to 1P if they tech up with buttons. Not to mention you can free cancel and do something else. But the most important part is that you are not giving them the ability to use their WUK. They are either going to be forced off the ground, or they will get up themselves. Either way, you are at advantage, and frame advantage.

The 1P itself is just a ground hit though, so if it hits them on the ground, they won't be forced up, if this happens, you can just do another 1P or another ground hitting move and they will be forced up. Because if you hit someone with a ground hit that doesn't cause a forced get up, but hit them again right afterward, then they will be forced up. If 1P hits and they tech up though, then you're at advantage nonetheless. The whole idea though is that they can't WUK. And DOA5's ground game is about that, forcing ground set ups that do not let your opponent act defensively off the ground.

That kind of set up for jab (whiff) > 1P can only be used after a PP6PK or BTP4PPP wall combo. If you're using BTPP4PP7K as your wall combo, you won't have any time to start any kind of ground set up.
 
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jjinkou2

Well-Known Member
Then I am whiff jab and following up with 1P afterward. Whiffing jab is just giving enough frames to make the 1P connect as a ground hit. So in that situation, the opponent does not get a WUK at all off the wall. The opponent can tech up after wall the combo and avoid the 1P, but they have to deal with follow ups to 1P if they tech up with buttons. Not to mention you can free cancel and do something else. But the most important part is that you are not giving them the ability to use their WUK. They are either going to be forced off the ground, or they will get up themselves. Either way, you are at advantage, and frame advantage.

thx for this explanation. i read your previous comment in kokoro FT thread but i couldn't understand the rational under it until i read here. time to practice it in lab now

---
Edit: @iHajinShinobi , how do you best configure your practice dummy to test that? I want to test the 1P against the WUK. I tried both of these below but i'm not sure i'm doing it right:

- i put the training dummy's reaction to mid kick, and action to normal standing. i wall splatted him and whiffed P then 1P. but the WUK hit me.

- i record a set of mid kicks for the dummy, and done the same as above. but the WUK is done randomly after the wall splat, and i'm not sure the 1P prevents the WUK.

As well same question about the frame advantage? how can i configure the lab to check that?
 
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iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
thx for this explanation. i read your previous comment in kokoro FT thread but i couldn't understand the rational under it until i read here. time to practice it in lab now

---
Edit: @iHajinShinobi , how do you best configure your practice dummy to test that? I want to test the 1P against the WUK. I tried both of these below but i'm not sure i'm doing it right:

- i put the training dummy's reaction to mid kick, and action to normal standing. i wall splatted him and whiffed P then 1P. but the WUK hit me.

- i record a set of mid kicks for the dummy, and done the same as above. but the WUK is done randomly after the wall splat, and i'm not sure the 1P prevents the WUK.

As well same question about the frame advantage? how can i configure the lab to check that?


I just saw your post edit, my apologies.

Record the dummy to do nothing, then set it to playback. This will allow the dummy behavior on the ground to behave as that of a human opponent.

As for figuring out the frame advantage from okizeme, in the case of the opponent teching up;

1) Set the dummy's Com Options to Recovery On
2) Set the dummy's Com Reaction to Hold (any hold)
3) Knock the opponent down however you want, and they will tech up and perform their hold afterward
4) Perform your hold after you've knocked them down
5) You and the dummy will hold, and you get a number shown under Advantage on Move Details. This will tell you how much frame advantage/disadvantage you're left at.

Example: I knock you down midscreen with Ayane's 6PK, you tech up, I am at +20. I will know this because I double check the work with the steps up above.

In the case of the wall tech with 1P. If I do the PP6PK wall juggle, whiff jab afterwards and you tech up, I'm at +29.

Easiest example would be doing BT T with Ayane and the opponent techs up and both of you hold. Done correctly, it'll display that Ayane is at +3 advantage.
 
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Lulu

Well-Known Member
I think I'l need to experinent with that training technique to fully grasp its importance....... hey weren't you working on a tutorial on how to actually use the Training Tools in Training Mode ? I could have sworn somebody was making a guide for it....
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Yeah, I said after I get my video tutorial done (not the stream, but an actual video tutorial for Ayane), some time after that I can. It's not going to be immediate though because I need to train for EVO next month.
 

jjinkou2

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the setup, i have the same numbers on my vita.

Last 2 questions :

- why do i have to hold to show these numbers? is that something related to hidden frame data that master explained ? (in this video http://www.freestepdodge.com/media/doa5u-class-hidden-frame-data-ground-game.7604/media? )


- is this advantage granted just after they tech up or do i have to hold to have this +20 (after ayane 6PK)?

[Edit] these questions are anwswered by the video of Master.
 
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Makeshift

New Member
Thanks for your detailed responses above hajin, lots of stuff for me to work on!

I've been watching your YouTube channel and a lot of your uploaded material is doa ultimate. How applicable is that to how you currently should be playing Ayane/is there anything dated in there I should avoid picking up?

Also been having a hard time with some of the wrestlers (particularly Bass/Lisa), any tips for those match ups?
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Anything I've been utilizing in 5U is applicable to LR, so there isn't anything you need to avoid since Ayane did not change hardly enough to be played very differently.

As for the Bass match up;

Ayane (i10/i13/i12) vs. Bass (i13/i15/i17)

The "David vs. Goliath" Match-Up of DOA5U, Ayane vs. Bass. The biggest, most imposing dude in the game versus the smallest (well before that pipsqueak Marie Rose came along), yet extremely nimble kunoichi, Ayane. However, this MU is not necessarily a case of "Big Damage" versus "Little Damage". That would be Pai vs. Bass for the most part. Yeah, when Bass hits you it hurts, but Ayane can still dish out the hurt against the big man despite his weight. Although not exactly exclusive to Ayane, it is good to know that her poking speed dominates Bass' on every hit level. This is particularly nice because Ayane's neutral pokes and strikes are designed to both deal with faster character's offense or to lock down slower characters by having them freeze up at the threat of being CH (or even whiff punished when Ayane's BT8P & 1P+K movement is involved) for a potentially big damage setup. This is helped out even more by Ayane's excellent hi-crushing capability. You want the big man to stay put and know his place!

Here's a rundown of Bass' pokes:

P = i13/ -2 on block/ +0 on hit/ 13 dmg (High P)
6P = i15/ -4 on block/ -3 on hit/ 24 dmg (Tracking Mid P)
K = i14/ +2 on block/ -1 on hit/ 33 dmg (High K +GB)
6K = i14/ -10 on block/ +14 on hit/ 26 dmg (Mid K)
2P = i17/ -7 on block/ -5 on hit/ 5 dmg (Low P)
2K = i16/ -10 on block/ +0 on hit/ 12 dmg (Low K, Unsafe)
P+K = i12/ -8 on block/ +26 on hit/ 26 dmg (High P, Unsafe)
3K = i15/ -7 on block/ +5 on hit/ 26 dmg (Mid K)
1K = i18/ -12 on block/ -6 on hit/ 18 dmg (Low K)
1P = i22/ -16 on block/ +12 on hit/ 26 dmg (Tracking Low P)
4P = i17/ -4 on block/ +0 on hit/ 16 dmg (Tracking Mid P)

Strings off of main pokes

P
PPP (HHM) (-GB)
PP2P (HHL) (Tracking, Unsafe)
PPK (HHH) (+GB)
PKP (HMM)
PKK (HMH)

6P
6PP (MM) (Tracking, -GB)
6PK (MH) (Tracking, Unsafe)

6K
6KP (MM) (Unsafe)
6KK (ML) (Unsafe)

2P
2PP (LH) (Unsafe)

3K
3KP (MM)
3KK (MH)

1K
1KP (LM) (Unsafe)

1P
1PP (LM) (Tracking, -GB)
1PP+K (LH) (Tracking, Unsafe)

4P
4PPP (MMM) (Tracking, +GB)
4PPP+K (MMH) (Tracking, Unsafe)

A good thing to note in this MU is knowing what's advantage on block and what's negative. Like most characters, Bass is usually slightly unsafe if you were to block a string ender, however he is safe on any of his "negative" Guard Breaks for the most part and is safe on strings such as variations of 3KP (only -2 on block) or variations of 9K like 3KK (only -4 on block). Since Bass is so much slower than Ayane (and more than 2/3's of the cast), you can confidently poke back at him since he'll have to respect your speed and striking ability. Be sure to punish 6KP (-11 on block) every time you block it since it is a go to string to set up Bass' brutal oki game. Punishing P+K would also help out in this MU to discourage Bass' fastest poke and a key CH stun tool. 1P/1PP is the main low attack to look out for (along with 1K) due to its instant hi-crush capability and tracking. Try to hold the 2nd hit on reaction, but be wary of 1PP+K as a "mix-up attempt" (which is unsafe like P+K).

Bass' Positive Guard Breaks

K = i14/ +2
4PPP = i17/ +6
33PP = i16/ +5
2H+K = i27/ +1
66P+K = i19/ +0
8H+K = i20/ +2
214P = i27/ +3
66K = i18/ +3
236P = i20/ +4
41236P+K = i21/ +6
7PP = i22/ +10 when fully charged
1P+K = i40/ +6 (+24 when fully charged)
7P+K = i40/ +16 when PB is active and charged

Probably the biggest key to working this MU is knowing which GB's are + and which are -. Good GB's like 66K or 33PP you have to watch out for, but feel free to poke back after blocking fraudulent GB's like 6PP or 1PP. After you block a positive GB your primary response should be to continue blocking, however you can also work Ayane's 2P to try and discourage most of Bass' follow-up options after a GB. The downside of continuous blocking is leaving your self open to Bass' fast OH's such as 66T or 41236T. Using hi-crush moves such as 2P or 1P can be a nice deterrent to Bass' highs and throws forcing him to have to try and continue pressure with a mid such as 6P, 4P, 6K or 3K for example. His go to lows, 1P & 1K aren't particularly fast and can be out-poked by 2P under most circumstances (Bass' 2PP is Low-High so the second hit is crouch-able). For the strings that lead into GB's you can generally hold the last hit if you're sharp and watching out for it.

Bass' Offensive Holds techniques

66T = i16/ 42 dmg
41236T = i18/ 45 dmg
41236T (Charged) = i32/ 68 dmg
41236T (Charged) ~23698T~82T = i37/ 90 dmg
8T = i32/ 52 dmg (Jumping OH)
3T = i10/ 52 dmg (Low OH)
BT T = i10/ +15 on hit
BT 2T = i10/ 30 dmg/ +10 on hit (Low OH)

Once Bass has you on the defensive he will try to work in his OH's into his battle strategy. You don't really want that. Use 2P's and 1P's against OH attempts (OH's can still catch hi-crush mids such as 4P or 6P). Though if you know he'll OH you, you can always throw him with something like 214T for 99 dmg on Hi-counter!

Likely the largest equalizer in this MU is this throw: 6T. i6/ 50 dmg/ +10 on hit. Any time Bass blocks something about -7 or worse, you're likely eating a 6T for your troubles. All of sudden, strings like 6PK become notably unsafe. When you have Bass on the defensive, he'll be looking to start his offense with this throw. If you get hit by it, you'll have to eat Bass' mix-ups. You can attempt to fuzzy guard afterwards though his follow-up attack speeds can vary a fair bit based on how he desires to continue the attack (i.e. a GB, an OH, a quick strike like 6K or he can throw out another 6T to annoy you and reset the situation). If he's not following up with quick strikes like 6K or 6P, for example, then you can get away with occasionally 2Ping him.

The other strong equalizer is Bass' Pick-up, Grounded 2T. i7/ +13 on hit. Anytime Bass scores a hard knockdown, he will generally try to "Pick you up" with 2T if you're nearby, or not teching the knockdown. If you get grabbed by this, the same rules apply like if you got hit by 6T. Try to predict his striking and OH pattern to know when to take defensive action, or when to attack with something like 2P.

Overall, Ayane's greatest strength in this MU is her ability to zone out Bass. Once you have him at mid-range or further, he's gunna try to get in on you with attacks such as 66P+K, 6H+K, 66K or run-up 3K for example. None of the attacks he'll approach with are advantage on block (66P+K is +0 which is, like, -5 for Bass anyway), except one, so you can attack after blocking anything. That is except 66K which is +3 and leaves Bass BT'ed. If you block 66K be very wary of BT T, an OH that sets up very damaging combos. He also has a low BT OH if you choose to crouch after blocking 66K. In this situation you may have to guess a little but the advantage is only +3 so your 2P (or 5P if you're feeling frisky) may be able to stuff quite a bit of options. Your main focus will be to look out for the BT OH and try to note what follow-ups he may use (6K, 6P & 4P tend to be likely follow-up pokes after a +GB).

To keep out Bass, use strikes like 3H+K, 3KK, 3P, BT3KK (be careful of his 6H+K), BT2P, BT4H+K, P4P, or 6PK (Try to hit the K at tip range) for example.

By and large I actually think the Bass MU is closer than may appear on paper due to how well Bass can punish Ayane, one of the more unsafe characters in the cast. Bass' 6T is always a threat ready to punish any costly mistakes. I'd say the MU is about 5.5-4.5 (5-5 if rounded) Ayane mainly because of her ability to zone out Bass and dominating him speed wise in close, coupled with her crushes. Though Bass' weight will limit your damage somewhat, especially with Ayane's main damage coming from juggles. Ayane being a Lightweight also allows Bass additional damage to some of his juggles. But that doesn't really change the fact that Ayane will be hitting Bass much more often than he's hitting you if you can keep your poking, spacing and movement in check. However, as soon as Bass hits that 6T or gets a Pick-up, the tables can be quickly turned and a lot of hurt will follow. Do not let that happen!

Keep in mind that 5K (same with 3H+K but just don't whiff it badly) can stuff most of Bass' approaches. BT2K will go right under 66K.

The Lisa match up I actually need to write up a bit later.
 

UncleKitchener

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I need to correct some factual errors regarding the Bass vs. Ayane MU writeup and add some important details:

Ayane (i10/i13/i12) vs. Bass (i12/i14/i16)

:6::6::P::+::K: advantage can go from 0 to +3 at mid range. I've been in loads of situations where people forget that there's actual frame advantage to be gained from this GB and end up losing trades. Usually, a Bass player at mid range is at +1~2 after a GB unless he does is from a shorter range like after :6::h::+::P:.

:3::K: causes a sit down stun on a crouching opponent. This is important because he can get guaranteed damage afterwards.

Another important GB is WR :3_::4::P::+::K: which is 0. This also create BT OH mixup, but the advantage of this is that it has a followup and creates a sort of frame trap between the two OHs to beat out any poke attempt slower than 9i if a correct read is made. This is often used especially after GBs or situations where Bass is recovering in crouching state (:6::6::P::+::K:, :h::+::K:, :6::h::+::K:, :2::P:, :1::P:) since it crushes highs.

:6::P::+::K::P: another GB worth adding to the list due to being +1 with a mixups and actually beating some crush attempts like GenFu's :3::P:. BT :P::+::K: also falls into a similar category of GB, though somehow it ends up being +2 in some situations (might be a bug).

8H+K = i20/ +2 => :h::+::K:? just to avoid confusion for those reading the original post by Force of Nature. This can also be turned into a +3 GB from slightly further range with possible WR situation.

Don't forget about BT :4::K:. I consider it to be one of his best moves. Can give a launch if not staggered properly on hit.

Another very important thing to note is what Ayane players can or cannot do after a :6::K::P: juggle vortex. Do not underestimate this as it's a key part of Bass' pressure game outside of :6::h::+::P: and fishing for openings to throw. Teching away is an option but keep in mind that you're still at mid range with disadvantage and pressing buttons can be potentially harmful due to some of the other options he has like TFBB, which has more range in LR and can be potentially used after an opponent techs away. Ayane players :1::P::+::K: to try and fish for whiffs, but keep in mind that someone might just run up and throw.


Also, how much do Ayane players really rely on :2::P:? Don't they ever get caught by low OHs?
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
You can be caught by low offensive holds on read or if it became really obvious. Not sure about other Ayane players, but I've never been low offensive held out of 2P before (or 1P+K).

Also trying to run up throw a 1P+K is super risky because 1P+K K exists and is safe. I've had some players actually try to be ballsy with that and never find success because of 1P+K P/K. You're better off doing that sort of thing with a strike instead of a throw, but that's still really risky.
 

UncleKitchener

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
You can be caught by low offensive holds on read or if it became really obvious. Not sure about other Ayane players, but I've never been low offensive held out of 2P before (or 1P+K).

Also trying to run up throw a 1P+K is super risky because 1P+K K exists and is safe. I've had some players actually try to be ballsy with that and never find success because of 1P+K P/K. You're better off doing that sort of thing with a strike instead of a throw, but that's still really risky.

Okay, so there are obviously ways both players can make reads and beat each others options.
 

Makeshift

New Member
Hey guys,

I have been working on juggles and combos in free training and can do almost all of them in free training when I have the commands premeditated. I can't seem to do the commands I've practiced in actual matches where I'm not sure if pokes are going to connect (esp. online with the delay).

I have uploaded 3 of the more representative matches below. I would really appreciate any constructive criticism/feedback (I know I'm awful at the game) but if anyone has any practical steps for what I should do next to improve that would be awesome.

 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Hey @Makeshift, good to see you've put up some videos for critique. I'd strong encourage you to do this as often as you like so I or others can help you learn and improve (don't let being new to the game discourage from uploading your play).

I'll try to keep the feedback simple so that it's not overwhelming for you when going back to the game to play and practice.

1) I would like for you to practice your juggles so that you get adept at getting your damage after launching opponents in actual matches. This is pretty much the only thing I believe you need to be concerned with right now. So let this be your primary focus for a little while, once you start hit confirming your juggles more often in matches, you'll feel a bit more accomplished because you are correctly depleting the opponent's life bar with good damage.

When you launch the opponent and you're in front turn stance, let PPPK be your juggle midscreen. When you launch the opponent and you're in back turn stance, let BTPP4PP7K because your juggle both midscreen and by the wall. When in front turn stance, let PP6PK be your wall combo. I think once you get more comfortable with these for now, you can try some other juggles a bit later on.

And you can always refer to my combo video as a guide for any juggles you're trying to practice.

2) When you get stunned, for now, your best bet with holds will be trying to recognize the opponent's strike pattern(s). Even if you aren't having much success at trying to recognize them, don't worry about it "too much" because it's hard to do when you don't know other characters strings. This part of the game will come to you the more you play. This is where you'll learn to build a better defense, which is going to take a lot of time.
 
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