Media DOA5U Helena video thread.

DR2K

Well-Known Member



I know there is a video thread, but we really should seperate the media thread to make things easier.

5U single/tag ft Helena videos only. Comments, suggestions, critique, etc is preferred.
 
0:38 at the wall bounce, you could've :426::P::K::P: for additional damage.
0:59 at the juggle, could've ended combo with :3::3::P::4::P: for extra damage.
1:09 at the launch, could've BKO :4::P::K: :3::3::P::4::P: judging by the height, instead of BKO K.
1:27 :3_::P::P:, the second punch could be delayed to open him.
1:58 at the BKO throw, can use followups like :8::P: :3::3::P::4::P:, for heavyweights, etc.
2:24 at BKO stance, could've BKO :4::P::K::K: or BKO :6: :P::4::P::P:
2:31 at the wall bounce, you could've :426::P::K::P: for additional damage.

A rank match I had with a Bayman. Any thoughts and critiques are most welcome!
 

ninjaguy446

Well-Known Member

A rank match I had with a Bayman. Any thoughts and critiques are most welcome!
0:00 Unless you're Kasumi, you shouldn't taunt at all during a match. Be careful doing that.

0:07 If you're going to bait for holds, only use 214T and BT T for more mixups, 6T and 4T only for against the walls or off of ledges, 66T for damage, and BKO T for the blender.

0:12 Please try not to whiff. If you whiff, you die.

0:18 Good. It should've wall hit but the angle was off I guess.

0:20 Careful whiffing, especially 1PP, because some people can hold the second hit on reaction.

0:35 At the start of the match, you should be moving around. Either circle your opponent or chase them, or something. Make sure you get your moves out the asap.

0:38 You weren't at CB levels yet, so you shouldn't really be doing a CB move. In that situation, Helena thrives off of wall pressure. She literally is insanely scary at the wall. You did 4P2P. Now Bayman's back is to the wall. Are you going to extend the stun? Are you going to do a 6T wall throw and put him right back into stun? Are you going to blender him? You have so many options with their back to the wall (after 4P2P). BKO P, BKO 6P, BKO 4P, BKO 6K, BKO 2K (wait for the stun to die down first or else they'll fall down), 6T, 2H+K, 1K, 1K2, etc. You can literally do anything. The world is in your hands at the wall. When Bayman hit the wall, you got flustered. You can do 33P4P or BKO 4PKK against the wall for heavyweights.

0:48 That was a beautiful throw, but you messed up the followup. The beauty of 6T and 4T when they're wall throws is that THEY CANNOT WAKEUP KICK! This is great because you can literally do w.h.a.t.e.v.e.r you want. BKO 2K2 and 2H+K are your best low options, any mid that doesn't wall splat, and 6T to reset them again.

0:50 You use 33P4P a lot. That's okay online because online, but if you're playing offline, I swear to you, that move will get held every single time and you will die.

0:52 Be careful using mid punches all the time; people love mid p holding Helena. The only way you can do that successfully is if you're actively using lows. A lot. People say Helena is a monster because she has so many different ways to mix you up. In stun, you should be going for lows, a lot. Your lows are 2H+K and 1K/1K2. If you want BKO, 2H+K and 1K2, if you want BT, 1K. BKO 2K2 is a great way to start stuns because of two things. It creates a mix up whether or not they stagger escape. Here's a scenario you do BKO 2K2. It's a mixup between BKO 6P and BKO 6K. When they start trying to hold and guess, you BKO T them. Also, when they stagger escape, you can mess with them by doing BKO 2K2 BKO 2K2. It's really fun.

0:56 44P is a good move to use during stun because it'll cause a reset and leaves you in BT. Try this is training: 33P 44P. See how they shot backwards? Now from here the stun is over, but you still have advantage. You can do BT 66K for a low into stun (people also are good at holding this, so you would do a mid instead), you can do BT 4PP for when they start ducking (especially doing 66 4PP to make it look like the low is coming), or BT T for more mixups.

1:00 Be careful when you abare.

1:02 Good moves to start the round are: P series, KK, 3P, 33P, BKO 6P, or just guard. Those are just a few, experiment with others to see which ones suit you best, but make sure they're at least a little fast or crush.

1:09 I see the setup now. But you already tried to do that, so you have to mix it up. After 8K you can do BKO 4PK 33P4P or BKO 4PKK.

1:11 Pleaaaaase stop whiffing. :(

1:28 See, now Bayman whiff. That was your chance to whiff punish him with something like 6T.

1:34 Whiff.

1:36 There you go lol.

1:41 6PP is 6T punishable and doesn't combo into BKO 2K. Actually, nothing combos into BKO 2K. You should ALWAYS do BKO 2K2 and stay in BKO.

1:50 A great setup is 8PP4 BT T. Or, 8PP2P 214T.

1:58 214P4PP is a good move (although I much more prefer 214P4P), but you made two mistakes. The first was going for the throw. There's no point baiting for a throw if you can CB (well, I guess if you want to reset them with 214T then it's alright). You're already taking the risk of them just falling, so you might as well just go with the CB after their delayed hold. The second mistake was that you executed the timing poorly. If you're gonna bait for a throw instead of the CB then you have to at least get it to be HiC, but it came out too late so you only got NH.

1:59 The staple BKO T combo on all weight classes is 4PPK 33P4P. The combo I do, which works on all weight classes, is BKO T 33P BKO 4PK 33P4P. It does more damage and it does not wallsplat early. If you have trouble with that one and wallsplats, then you can do P 66KPP.

2:06 Sometimes holding isn't your best option. Try to stagger escape out of things. It's a lot safer than making guesses.

2:24 8PP4 BT 4PK BKO 4PK 33P4P.

2:27 I don't really like that you're whiffing hits at first, even though you are still hitting the opponent. It will just create bad habits later on. Make sure all of your hits connect and you aren't whiffing. And after 236PKP either do 66KPP[P] or 66H+K BKO 4PKK depending on weightclass.

2:30 Be careful throwing out 66KPP because a lot of people can hold the first or second hit.

2:32 Again, don't use K at the wall. Either do BKO 4PK 33P4P or 33P 33P4P.

2:37 After BT 4PK wallsplat, do BKO 4PK 33P4P.

2:40 That would've been a nice kill but watch your spacing. You weren't quite out of Bayman's wakeup kick range.

2:43 4PPP is 6T punishable on block.

2:48 See above^
Well, that's it. Hope this helps you improve! Sorry about the wall of text lol I kind of got carried away.
 

Zack117

Member
Standard Donor
I hope this is the right place for this matter.

Ok guys, I think I need your help on this. I was fighting a player who is obviously on a whole different level than I am. He wrecked me so bad the whole time. It's the first time frustration got the upper hand on me in DOA. I've never felt more powerless against an opponent in this game.

I feel like I've spent more time being juggled in the air than on the ground and that is because I let him, of course.
But I didn't feel like I was able to do much.
  • When I tried to stagger escape out of his stuns, he launched or did a reset on me. Or just grabbed me.
  • My holds where obviously non-existing. Just fishing. I gotta work on that but Phase 4 is such a hard read for me when she starts doing those teleports.
  • Many of my wake-up kicks got me in big trouble. I shouldn't have done that.

Nuff bitchin'!
The only thing that I could have done to stop him and break his everlasting momentum is probably to hold him. But that's just what I see. Perhaps you see more.
Critiques are therefore more than welcome!

Those videos do pretty much summarize what happened in the ~10 matches I played him. Even though I managed to go out with at least an 1/3 sometimes but the most time it was a 0/3.
 
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tokiopewpew

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Murasaki-dono is one of those Phase 4 players who love to press buttons and this works very well due to reduced disadvantage in the online play. So what you are supposed to do is not pressing buttons and rather wait for using a crush (which Helena has really good ones) or your fastest mid after blocking one his moves.

Although sidestepping is actually a key thing you should use in this match-up because Phase has only like 6 useful moves that track, it wouldn't have worked well against this him because he used them quite often. The thing is, that these tracking moves (like P+K, 4P or 1PP) are slow compared to her other arsenal. And since you often blocked them too, any of your strings or low openers would have beat him out due to being in heavy disadvantage (even online).

From what I can see here and what I know from playing you, I'd say you rely too much on throws in general, these aren't Helena's strength (got even nerved with LR). Helena has a great mixup and force tech game compared with high evasivness due to Bokuho and this is what you are supposed to use. 80% of his offensive would have hit pure air when you use the latter more, which you can see pretty good in the first 20 seconds of your second video. That worked very well, unless you literally stopped your own offensive with a low that resets the stun. Therefore, what you're gonna do next time should be using sidestepping (moves like 66PP or 66K he used to get in are all linear) or staying in Bokuho (duck, which will avoid all of these too) while being at range and not being afraid to start a string or use a good crush after blocking him at close range.

In addition, Phase does not have many tools to create a real force tech situation for her advantage, so you can stay on the ground and try to figure out what she's going for after a knockdown. And if you notice that a Phase or Kasumi player loves to jump over your wakeup kicks, stop doing them and just get up blocking instead. In case of this guy, I'd say a delayed wakeup kick would have also worked wonders. However, a force tech situation where you can't do that would be at 1:21 in the second video, then you're imo better of either blocking or using a high crush immediately.

Just my 2 cents as Phase player, giving tips about which tools exactly to use best in this match up I can only leave to the Helena experts here.
 

ninjaguy446

Well-Known Member
I hope this is the right place for this matter.

Ok guys, I think I need your help on this. I was fighting a player who is obviously on a whole different level than I am. He wrecked me so bad the whole time. It's the first time frustration got the upper hand on me in DOA. I've never felt more powerless against an opponent in this game.

I feel like I've spent more time being juggled in the air than on the ground and that is because I let him, of course.
But I didn't feel like I was able to do much.
  • When I tried to stagger escape out of his stuns, he launched or did a reset on me. Or just grabbed me.
  • My holds where obviously non-existing. Just fishing. I gotta work on that but Phase 4 is such a hard read for me when she starts doing those teleports.
  • Many of my wake-up kicks got me in big trouble. I shouldn't have done that.

Nuff bitchin'!
The only thing that I could have done to stop him and break his everlasting momentum is probably to hold him. But that's just what I see. Perhaps you see more.
Critiques are therefore more than welcome!

Those videos do pretty much summarize what happened in the ~10 matches I played him. Even though I managed to go out with at least an 1/3 sometimes but the most time it was a 0/3.
My ears thank you for using Japanese voices.
A little preamble, as a general guideline, you should never wake up kick against the ninjas because you'll probably die. Also, it says that you guys had a 1 bar connection, so don't beat yourself up too much. I'm a Phase 4 main, so hopefully I can help you :) Make sure you read everything because there's some Helena tech below lol. I would advise caution when stagger escaping against Phase 4. All of her stuns are so deep that you won't get anywhere.
First Video
:07 You landed 214P, nice. I'm pretty sure 214P4P is guaranteed, so that would've led you into a deep stun where you could've done anything you want (this was the preferable option). You grabbed which whiffed, and then you grabbed again. That definitely tipped him off as to what you wanted to do, so he decided to abare and hit you. Be careful grabbing right away after you stun them, this would've been a great opportunity to start your offense.
:15 Be careful whiffing, that goes for everyone. Especially a negative move like 214P+K.
:29 BKO ducking at the beginning of the match is an excellent option. I wasn't aware that Phase 4's P+K was a true mid... Anyways, in that stun every move he did was a mid. First PP+K (The first P whiffed) P+K 3P. When P4 teleports, don't get flustered. If she does 3P Chifu, she still has the same options as if she was standing. Same with any other move leading into Chifu.
:38 That was a good bait. But, you picked the wrong grab. If you would've done 6T instead of 4T, you would been in a better situation since it would've wall hit and she wouldn't have been able to wakeup kick.
:46 Watch your advantage, in DOA anything NH is probably negative, and that includes Helena's 2K
:57 Watch your spacing and try not to whiff ever
:59 Assuming this was a good coincidence because of what you said. After 66K, Phase 4 only has three options from Tenfu. P, K, and T. You held K, P is also holdable, but there's always the threat of Tenfu T or Phase doing an empty 66K Tenfu into 236T or 33T, and that won't end well for you if it's HCH.
1:02 Bad choice to do 33PP over 33P4P. It would've led into Helena's PFT which leads into mixups.
1:04 Watch your spacing, you got hit here for it, even if it was only a tap.
1:06 After Phase 4's 1P, she can delay into 1PP so careful strike punishing that.
1:10 Watch your spacing

Second Video
:12 Good. Now you did handslaps and she's lying on the ground. Unless I know for sure that my opponent will tech, it is always good to do BKO 6P, even if they tech up because you'll still be at + frames. If you decide not to do BKO 6P or BKO 2K2, then you'll risk being thrown back into the wakeup game.
:15 That said, it's always satisfying to low hold wakeup kicks with Helena. :)
:17 Nice FT
:20 Careful with your wakeup option though. I would've gone with BKO 2K2 since it would've stunned him and kept him there. Doing 33PP was risky because he could've punished you, but got hit the second punch.
:21 You did 2P. Not ideal but I guess you can still make it work... but then you did 2P again. This could've been a mistake but if it wasn't you shouldn't do that ever again. Also, if you want to reset a situation with Helena, she has better options than 2P for strikes. You can do 6P4, 3PP4, and 2P. Granted, 2P would work well if you used it with their back to the wall because you could do 6T.
:22 Phase 4 is faster than Helena, so carefl
:27 Nice hold. Phase 4 mains (myself included) like to go for Chifu P when the opponent's back is to the wall since we get a nice wall combo.
:28 Chifu P can't be held, so you could've gotten a back throw or done a strike if you reacted faster, but you probably didn't realize that. It's okay since now you can be ready for next time.
:31 Like I said, wakeup kicks against ninjas is a big no-no. You could delay, however, and do it.
:37 ^
:36 and :38 See Tenfu options above
:45 P6P is - on block, but she also has P6PP, which is even more - on block. Sidestepping probably would've worked afterwards to avoid the threat of the second P or anything else
:46 Phase 4's 4P is literally d.e.a.t.h on block. You can punish a lot harder than that. 66T or 214T. Careful doing 5T since it's throw breakable. But good job punishing it at all. Not punishing Phase 4 will make her a nightmare.
:47 Probably wasn't a good idea to grab. You haven't trained this Phase 4 to block at all. You have to beat them up when they stand until they're too afraid to do anything when they get up.
:53 Be careful doing 1K outside of stun. It's - on NH.
:54 That was P6PP, so if you had blocked it you could've throw punished.
1:11 At R1F, you have to make sure you BKO duck immediately, and not enter BKO first, and then duck. You could've BKO 6P4P or BKO T'd him.
1:20 Phase 4 has a PFT after her 236 T. She can do 4P 66K Tenfu K or 6K 66K Tenfu K and the Tenfu K will tech you up. Don't let her force tech you by teching on your own and low(?) throw punishing Tenfu K.
1:27 Nice duck, but remember what I said about using 5T to punish.
1:34 Try not to ever do 33PP on block since it will get you throw punished.
1:35 Nice throw. I'm assuming that the second P of BKO 6PP didn't come out, but if you did that purposefully, then you should always go for the BKO 6PP.
1:37 You redeem yourself! Yay
1:42 I'm assuming you meant 33P4P
Hope this helps! Feel free to ask any more questions.
 

tokiopewpew

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I think @ninjaguy446 has given you a good summary of the most important points. Just some things I saw and like to clarify:

:29 BKO ducking at the beginning of the match is an excellent option. I wasn't aware that Phase 4's P+K was a true mid...

Phase's P+K is a true mid, but Helena's BKO duck will avoid it anyways. Zack got hit by it because he was not ducking in BKO, he was just staying in it normally. However, BKO is a very good option indeed, because you can either do:

  • The duck to avoid all highs and mids, where only lows will hit you, or
  • Helenas 6P from it, which will beat out Phase's high options, her true mid P+K (Helenas 6P is faster) and her low options (same speed on her 2P, but Helena does more damage)

That means on round start, Helena has actually a very high chance to get the advantage. And if you notice the opponent knows how to avoid one of these options by using the correct anti tools, you switch to the other one.

1:06 After Phase 4's 1P, she can delay into 1PP so careful strike punishing that.

Just to add that: If you going to strike punish, go for a low because the second punch of 1PP is a high. Helena's 3P says hello to that (i13 high crush, omg).

:27 Nice hold. Phase 4 mains (myself included) like to go for Chifu P when the opponent's back is to the wall since we get a nice wall combo.
:28 Chifu P can't be held, so you could've gotten a back throw or done a strike if you reacted faster, but you probably didn't realize that.

Zack did not use any hold in that moment, there was just a wall glitch which made them switching sides. Phase's chifu P is holdable, it's a high. And no, you won't get any throw after blocking it because it's safe on -4 and that means even backturned, any attack done after it will beat our throw. And as you can see in the replay, Murasaki pressed P immediately after it, which he has no reason for not doing so.

:46 Phase 4's 4P is literally d.e.a.t.h on block. You can punish a lot harder than that. 66T or 214T. Careful doing 5T since it's throw breakable. But good job punishing it at all. Not punishing Phase 4 will make her a nightmare.

Phase's 4P isn't 'death' in any way. That move is around -12 on block, sometimes less, so Helena's 66T or 214T which are i12 won't work because you have to add one or two startup frames.
 

Zack117

Member
Standard Donor
@ToKyo PewPew and @ninjaguy446 Thanks a lot for your effort guys. FSD never ceases to amaze me. I wasn't expecting so much help, not to mention it to be that detailed and extensive. Not has it helped only my Phase 4 MU but also my general game with Helena. I've already managed to implement some things you've mentioned into my playstyle.
 

ninjaguy446

Well-Known Member
@ToKyo PewPew and @ninjaguy446 Thanks a lot for your effort guys. FSD never ceases to amaze me. I wasn't expecting so much help, not to mention it to be that detailed and extensive. Not has it helped only my Phase 4 MU but also my general game with Helena. I've already managed to implement some things you've mentioned into my playstyle.
Happy to help. Also, for future reference.
Phase 4
3P - 6T
6PP - 6T
6PK - 4T
1K - 214T_66T (distance dependent)
4P - 4T
66K - 214T_66T
1PP - 214T_66T
Tenfu P - 6T
Tenfu K - 214T_66T_2T_1T
Chifu K - 214T_66T
 
I hope this is the right place for this matter.

Ok guys, I think I need your help on this. I was fighting a player who is obviously on a whole different level than I am. He wrecked me so bad the whole time. It's the first time frustration got the upper hand on me in DOA. I've never felt more powerless against an opponent in this game.

I feel like I've spent more time being juggled in the air than on the ground and that is because I let him, of course.
But I didn't feel like I was able to do much.
  • When I tried to stagger escape out of his stuns, he launched or did a reset on me. Or just grabbed me.
  • My holds where obviously non-existing. Just fishing. I gotta work on that but Phase 4 is such a hard read for me when she starts doing those teleports.
  • Many of my wake-up kicks got me in big trouble. I shouldn't have done that.

Nuff bitchin'!
The only thing that I could have done to stop him and break his everlasting momentum is probably to hold him. But that's just what I see. Perhaps you see more.
Critiques are therefore more than welcome!

Those videos do pretty much summarize what happened in the ~10 matches I played him. Even though I managed to go out with at least an 1/3 sometimes but the most time it was a 0/3.
In the first video, I wouldn't start off with a :214::P+K: because it's really slow and Phase 4 has a really fast poke that can pretty much beat your first attack everytime.

Your attack still hit regardless by luck, but you should've went for a BKO :6::P:(guaranteed hit) right after :214::P+K: since :214::P+K: puts you in BKO stance, instead of repeated trying to throw him while he was in a sit down stun. And you can't throw someone while they are stunned anyways.


At 0:17 you did :214::P+K: again. I don't recommend using that as a spacing tool because Helena has better options like :1::K::K:, :2::2::K: and :6::P+K::P:(delay the last hit).


At 0:40 I recommend going for a :214:THROW :6::P::P::K: (the throw followup is guaranteed if near the wall) for the Hi counter throw, instead of a back throw since it placed you in the corner and you got butchered from there.


In the last round, you were on the right track being a bit more defensive. At 1:03 right after the :6::h: hold you could've finished the string like :6::h: BKO :4::P::K: :3::3::P::4::P: for a force tech setup.


At 1:05 right when your opponent was doing that wakeup kick, you could've when for :6::6::K::P: stun game or BT throw loop. I don't recommend :P+K: thre because it's mainly used as a high crusher and you have better options.

At 1:15 that move he did was unsafe, throw him.
Overall, you have to play more defensive against Phase 4 because a lot of her stuff is punishable.
 

CrudeRaven

Member
Little new to Helena and i don't have much when it comes to good combos, but its a work in progress.
Hows everything right now?
Probably won because of spam kms
 

ninjaguy446

Well-Known Member
Little new to Helena and i don't have much when it comes to good combos, but its a work in progress.
Hows everything right now?
Probably won because of spam kms
A win is a win, give yourself a little more credit ;)
Hi :) Just for future reference, it's usually better to post videos where you've lost because when you've won, well, you made the right decisions and moves. The way you improve at fighting games is looking back at your mistakes and where you went wrong, what you could have done better. So, baring any combo issues this is what you could improve on.

First video
---
:06 If you're going to bait for holds after a stun, you should almost always use 214T. This throw will allow you to keep them in the blender. the combo is 214T 6PP, and then from there you can do mixups by keeping them in stun or going for another 214T.

:55 generally when you've knocked someone down with Helena, you want to force tech them up. You do that with BKO 6P or BKO 2K.

1:11 perfect example of what I just noted. After a 33P4P ender, unless you think they're going to tech, you always want to do BKO 6P or BKO 2K. BKO 2K will always force tech them, but if they decided to tech you're left at a disadvantage. BKO 6P needs to be done twice in order to tech them, but people usually will tech themselves after they get hit with the first one. After they tech, you continue you're mixups (33P, BKO 2K, throw, etc.)

2:16 after BT 66K you usually want to hold 2 so that you can stay in BKO to either tech them up or mix them up if they tech.

2:21 after BT T you want to do 3PP. You can keep comboing them after this, you could do another BT T if you do 3PP4, or mixups in general.
---

Second Video
---
:22 Force tech them after a knockdown.

:28 Careful not to go over the threshold. Good string progression but you needed to either launch or reset them with a low or throw.

:30 Helena was negative after that string, it was your turn to attack. I would have either done 214T or BKO 2K2.

:39 That was good.

:40 Make sure you do the guaranteed stuff after her reset throws until you get more comfortable with her.

1:22 Another situation where you should have force teched them.

1:49 As you start to fight better players, you will get blown up for finishing the 1PPK string lol it's a bad habit to use it all the way so be careful when you do

2:07 After that low WU kick you could have continued pressure.

2:15 Good try baiting the hold/crouch with 1PP

2:27 Use 214T in that situation instead.

2:34 ^^

2:42 Careful

2:47 That was a really strong finish.
---

General Notes
I would recommend always staying in BKO after BKO 2K by holding 2 afterwards. It's basically a mixup of, are they going to do another BKO 2K, BKO 6P or BKO T.
After 214T BKO 6PP is guaranteed.
After BT T 3PP is guaranteed.
66T is her strongest throw, so if you think it will kill then use that instead of 214T.
You generally did BT 4PK a lot, if you fight anyone good then they're going to hold the kick a lot because it's easy to see.
You kind of just did the same thing always when you were BT, you would do BT 4PK, and that can get predictable. You mixed up sometimes with BT 4K and that was good. As you get more comfortable with Helena's moveset I'm sure you'll get better at mixing her moves up.
Whenever you launch with Helena the usual go to combo will be launch BKO 4PK 33P4P. Sometimes you can do 33P 33P4P if they're light enough but doing the first combo will usually always work on everyone.
Make sure you watch and see what Helena players like XCaliburBladeZ do for tech references. Might as well learn from the best haha.
Using Japanese voice will also probably increase your win rate by like 100% js :rolleyes:

By the way, I didn't see any spamming. And even if you did, you're playing to win, and that includes doing whatever it takes. If you're opponent is too dense to be able to counter spam then that's their own fault and weakness. You capitalize on that.
Hope this helped! If you have any questions feel free to ask.
 
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