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TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#1
What's going on guys? I've been out for awhile but I'm returning to DOA and FSD again. I may have been gone but I've been keeping my eye out. I've seen certain things go on as well.

With the game at its current state, Hayate retains a high mid tier standpoint with very solid tools that don't necessarily overpower anyone but the characters in his tier and below, yet he's consistently getting nerfed over characters like Gen Fu and Zack. (Examples: 8P+KP (and 4P, 1K, 6K, 6P+K~K) damage nerfs, 3H+K delay (5 frames only) taken away, 8P NH launch height nerfed)... yet they're getting consistent buffs.

I'm not sure what the angle is here... but I'm not enjoying this. TN started off on the right track with Hayate with certain aspects being clunky. He may not be the worst character but he's still lacking in the area of being an engaging character to play. So here is my rehashed list. Feel free to discuss these as well as some of your own ideas. I'll rewrite the list to this post to avoid pushing you all through a link to see it when I have time.

http://takedazxdoa.blogspot.com/2013/08/hayate-got-buffed.html

Now there's kinks to work out on the balance area but regardless but the point of this is to cover the main issue that most people have with Hayate (and Ein). Here's the question... what characters are usually winning in this game? Either ones who pressure you out with mids strings 3 hits or more (Christie, Helena, Gen Fu). Ayane's there too but I only see one particular person winning... but this man plays Gen Fu as well.

Hayate needs more of a reason to hit buttons... cause that's really how you win in this game... and you need good buttons at that.

Tell me what you think.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#3
Give him better crushes. Instantly top tier. Crushes are the god of DOA and 3D fighters in general.
His crushes are already good for what they are. They just need to be used correctly. He lacks in the category of pressuring up close and getting his opponent off of him so he can play his own game and then on top of that, his best moves for creating breathing room are unsafe.

If that were to change, he'd be better set to deal with his opponents.
EDIT: That said, give Eliot a mid faster than 14f first. Hayate's already strong.
Take the Eliot talk to the Eliot section. That's not what this topic is for. Bring this with you though:
My opinion on Eliot is that he's not doing too bad, he just needs a few properties adjusted overall since he's kind of a baby Gen Fu.
  • 9P
    • 9P needs its Vanilla properties. (Deep Stun on CH +)
  • BT 4P
    • BT 4P needs to ground bounce on max threshold.
  • 3P+K
    • 3P+K needs a height lift since it is his only decent mid punch launcher at that speed.
  • 3KP and 33P2P
    • 3KP and 33P2P need to end in crouching or half crouching status so that he can follow up with an instant h3p by just holding 3 and mashing P through the recovery of those two moves.
      • That being said, since 33P isn't even a mid punch launcher anymore. It could obtain Sabaki properties allowing 33P2P to become its guaranteed follow up on Sabaki and his double hitting launcher in the stun game for mid punches. The stun doesn't have to be great on regular hit but it'd be a nice stun game tool to have.
  • 8P
    • 8P should be sped up one frame. This will give him a 14i high punch to chain off of his parries with. The damage won't be crazy but basically it gives him the chance to gamble an alternative launcher rather than just 9KK. (8P, 8K or 8P, 3P+K or 8P, 9K)
  • New 6KK, change the current kick into the 4PK mid kick.
  • BT 2K, 4P2K, and 1PP2K tracking.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#5
I dunno, I just don't get why he needs changes. He's already a good character with no fundamental issues. The only thing I'd change is make his Raijin do more damage so there's a real incentive to use it.
Hayate isn't trash but he's not where he should be. Other characters lack too but don't give me, "Hayate's not even that bad off, he doesn't deserve anything but Eliot deserves all the buffs in the world". That's like two patients coming into a hospital and the doctors saying, "You only got stabbed in the lung, he got shot in the lung so were not going to treat you but we will treat him".

TN keeps making him more and more undesirable to play and even the new players see that compared to the other ninja, Hayate is barebones, boring, and becoming less and less effective with the constant nerfs to his damage, moves, and properties. I'm asking for this to stop and to be reversed. I'm asking for a more interesting character. No he doesn't have to be godlike as far as (guaranteed) damage and everything like that but I'd like to see something more flashy and more so effective. This is the reason behind my ideas. The ones crucial to his improvement are starred. The ones that aren't have to do with the part about making him more "interesting".
 
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Madian

Active Member
#6
Honestly I had a hard time reading over your first half of suggested changes. They completely alter the character's base concept. It would make him the perfect character which I don't like and I don't think any developer would take this serious. Granted I see you posted these changes initially last year and that was a different era in the meta-game. Giving him multiple hit strings would basically alter him from being a footsie based character to a rushdown character who can also poke from long range and deals grappler damage off of throws. Why not take the gimmicky moves he already has and tweak them so they actually work?

I feel as most Hayate players do in that he either plays too limited or too gimmicky depending on how your play style combines with his attributes but the changes should be subtle as he isn't too far off from being a balanced character. I rage all the same over things like Tenshin Sen's damage nerf. Having said that I don't feel most Hayate players are utilizing him to his fullest. I still see players that main him doing pointless things like 66KKK on a blocking opponent or teleporting around the screen.

Liked the idea of making 8PK a +0GB

You also got the right idea on making 214's NH more interesting as the move is virtually useless as is. I'd settle for a +14 on fastest stagger sit stun. It still wouldn't be as good as Ryu's 214P which is fine it would at least have some use offline then.

At this point in the game's lifespan its far more likely that we will get subtle balance tweaks and no new moves considering new animations will require more time investment and that means more money spent on what would be a free patch.

It is more viable to ask for changes to moves that already exist but are virtually worthless at high level.

Take for instance the mugetsu backflip (44K, 6P44, 66P44, and PP6P44). This move is virtually useless since the opponent can option select a grab for either outcome on block. And in stun it can be used to bait a bad hold near a wall but otherwise it's virtually useless in stun. If TN removed the recovery from landing (similar to Momiji's 8K) it would be way more useful. As is I think it only has 3 or 4 frames in which Hayate is recovering in a standing state but its enough to make Mugetsu nothing more than a taunt. Less recovery would allow us to punish throw attempts or lows and on block it would be a lot harder to punish.
 
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TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#7
Honestly I had a hard time reading over your first half of suggested changes. They completely alter the character's base concept. It would make him the perfect character which I don't like and I don't think any developer would take this serious. Granted I see you posted these changes initially last year and that was a different era in the meta-game. Giving him multiple hit strings would basically alter him from being a footsie based character to a rushdown character who can also poke from long range and deals grappler damage off of throws. Why not take the gimmicky moves he already has and tweak them so they actually work?

I feel as most Hayate players do in that he either plays too limited or too gimmicky depending on how your play style combines with his attributes but the changes should be subtle as he isn't too far off from being a balanced character. I rage all the same over things like Tenshin Sen's damage nerf. Having said that I don't feel most Hayate players are utilizing him to his fullest. I still see players that main him doing pointless things like 66KKK on a blocking opponent or teleporting around the screen.

Liked the idea of making 8PK a +0GB

You also got the right idea on making 214's NH more interesting as the move is virtually useless as is. I'd settle for a +14 on fastest stagger sit stun. It still wouldn't be as good as Ryu's 214P which is fine it would at least have some use offline then.

At this point in the game's lifespan its far more likely that we will get subtle balance tweaks and no new moves considering new animations will require more time investment and that means more money spent on what would be a free patch.

It is more viable to ask for changes to moves that already exist but are virtually worthless at high level.

Take for instance the mugetsu backflip (44K, 6P44, 66P44, and PP6P44). This move is virtually useless since the opponent can option select a grab for either outcome on block. And in stun it can be used to bait a bad hold near a wall but otherwise it's virtually useless in stun. If TN removed the recovery from landing (similar to Momiji's 8K) it would be way more useful. As is I think it only has 3 or 4 frames in which Hayate is recovering in a standing state but its enough to make Mugetsu nothing more than a taunt. Less recovery would allow us to punish throw attempts or lows and on block it would be a lot harder to punish.
Understandable, though there's is a bit of a disclaimer point out the moves that are actually important over ones that could show up later along in the games.

These moves that are considered important are double starred. 4H+K, 2KK, and 1PP wouldn't really apply to him becoming a rushdown character, nor would PP4P~ and the damage increases to PPKK and 8P+K. 66KK is somewhat underlooked in my eyes. For a spin kick like that, it's ludicrous for it not to track and the same applies to BT 2K. A sweep that doesn't track? And it's not like 4P2K doesn't (which is the same sweep). This is pure laziness or negligence because Ein has the same issue with his 1K6P2K.

For the frame changes I could sit here and argue all day about them. Simply put though, in the end this would just solidify his stun game. The only thing that could be argued is 236K, but that one really isn't as important. It was mentionable.

As for Mugetsu, I don't think it really has any place in Hayate's arsenal. But regardless lets tackle this. Even if there were 3 frames of recovery removed from the flip, it'd still be mostly useless for anything other than a fake out. The flip kick itself is a weak move. It only really has applications in PL juggles and one in his advanced mid kick hold (6P44KK, 7K).

Also, 6P only sparks 3 reactions. Block, Hold, or Throw. Never Low throw or low strike. The tech jump is meaningless and the lack of safety on block means that 44KK is very likely to be punished on reaction so that's not a worry. This move needs something else to be considered useful but regardless I really don't think it belongs.

Fuck her right in the pussy.

Honestly though, you kind of only targeted 9PPP/9PK/6PPP in this topic (aside from briefly touching on 8PK and 44K which I believe I took out of my list as a mentionable). Now I can understand that as they are the first things that you see but other things... I don't really see them as a set of suggestions that push to make Hayate the "perfect" character.

Expand more on that.
 
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Madian

Active Member
#8
Understandable, though there's is a bit of a disclaimer point out the moves that are actually important over ones that could show up later along in the games.
I got that you had priority levels on the moves but I wanted to kind of pick apart why you wanted certain ones.

These moves that are considered important are double starred. 4H+K, 2KK, and 1PP wouldn't really apply to him becoming a rushdown character, nor would PP4P~ and the damage increases to PPKK and 8P+K. 66KK is somewhat underlooked in my eyes. For a spin kick like that, it's ludicrous for it not to track and the same applies to BT 2K. A sweep that doesn't track? And it's not like 4P2K doesn't (which is the same sweep). This is pure laziness or negligence because Ein has the same issue with his 1K6P2K.
PP4P, if it were the no tracking no critical stun on NH that it was before Hayate got his big set of buffs it would be fine but as it is I really think getting Hayate's missing jab strings back from the DoA4 days is pushing it. He already h as some solid options off of his jab strings. He's got a Gake transition, frame traps, safe options, tracking. I'm just looking at things from the perspective of what we can viably push for from TN.

For the frame changes I could sit here and argue all day about them. Simply put though, in the end this would just solidify his stun game. The only thing that could be argued is 236K, but that one really isn't as important. It was mentionable.
I kind of like the idea of 6P being +18 on fastest. I don't think it's asking for too much either. I just don't expect that change considering the pattern of TN's balance changes.

As for Mugetsu, I don't think it really has any place in Hayate's arsenal. But regardless lets tackle this. Even if there were 3 frames of recovery removed from the flip, it'd still be mostly useless for anything other than a fake out. The flip kick itself is a weak move. It only really has applications in PL juggles and one in his advanced mid kick hold (6P44KK, 7K).

Also, 6P only sparks 3 reactions. Block, Hold, or Throw. Never Low throw or low strike. The tech jump is meaningless and the lack of safety on block means that 44KK is very likely to be punished on reaction so that's not a worry. This move needs something else to be considered useful but regardless I really don't think it belongs.
Honestly 6P is likely Hayate's best poke if you play offline. It's one of his best moves both in close quarters and at longer ranges since it will stuff ranged attacks and can be canceled into the tracking mid kick which is -5 or -6 at that distance.

The thing is that our options are we either do a telegraphic and unsafe palm strike or a mid kick that knocks the opponent away and is more-or-less safe but can be punished by the 4 fast grappler characters. If Mugetsu was tweaked so that you could defend yourself after landing the opponent would be stuck with a mix up or potentially getting hit by the flip kick option. If they want to anti-air you they would have to do so as soon as you did 6P which makes them vulnerable to the palm strike. It's not a perfect option but it is an option which is a significant perk considering how crucial 6P is.

Fuck her right in the pussy.
Is she good looking? Sign me up!

Honestly though, you kind of only targeted 9PPP/9PK/6PPP in this topic (aside from briefly touching on 8PK and 44K which I believe I took out of my list as a mentionable). Now I can understand that as they are the first things that you see but other things... I don't really see them as a set of suggestions that push to make Hayate the "perfect" character.

Expand more on that.
I looked over your changes you posted, the first few stuck out so I commented on them immediately. Maybe if only some of these changes were implemented but if all of them were Hayate would be top tier easily. Maybe not Gen Fu or Lei Fang good but not far from.

Do you play online or offline? Online Hayate feels awful because it's impossible to hit confirm his handful of delayable strikes.

Again I think the frustration we all feel playing Hayate is the same and real. We have different answers to this in the end. As it is, the last balance patch was very minimalistic so I think we should really put some thought into this and come up with something that would be easy for them to implement on a coffee break and be subtle enough to make them consider it.

In DoA5 Vanilla Hayate was fine because although he didn't have a safe and efficient way to fish for damage set ups like other characters did but he got so much damage off his punishes that it didn't matter. 72 off of 236T. 72 off of SS P. Now that he no longer has that and his juggle damage was reduced overall, he now needs something to fill the glaring void.

I'll throw my own list of suggestions out.
 
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TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#10
I got that you had priority levels on the moves but I wanted to kind of pick apart why you wanted certain ones.
Fair enough, but there didn't seem to be too many beyond 9PPP and etc. That's understandable for those but for the others, I don't see them as much of a problem. It's more so building on what he has. He seems a little incomplete in my eyes, but that's just me.



PP4P, if it were the no tracking no critical stun on NH that it was before Hayate got his big set of buffs it would be fine but as it is I really think getting Hayate's missing jab strings back from the DoA4 days is pushing it. He already h as some solid options off of his jab strings. He's got a Gake transition, frame traps, safe options, tracking. I'm just looking at things from the perspective of what we can viably push for from TN.
It was already discussed (but not stated on the blog) that PP4P would lose some utility. The main thing being lost would be the 4P6P+K transition. This leaves only PP4PP, PP4P6P, and PP4P2K as options to work with... but the tracking being lost defeats the whole point of bringing the move back.

As for the stun, that's arguable but it's agreed it'd be a bit too powerful to have that in his punch strings.

I kind of like the idea of 6P being +18 on fastest. I don't think it's asking for too much either. I just don't expect that change considering the pattern of TN's balance changes.
In reality, compared to some of these characters, we should be asking for +20 on 6P to give us a CB option but it's a pain in the ass. Hayate doesn't need a CB to do damage anyway, but having the option to 6P into CB without worrying about SE is always a nice thing.

Honestly 6P is likely Hayate's best poke if you play offline. It's one of his best moves both in close quarters and at longer ranges since it will stuff ranged attacks and can be canceled into the tracking mid kick which is -5 or -6 at that distance.

The thing is that our options are we either do a telegraphic and unsafe palm strike or a mid kick that knocks the opponent away and is more-or-less safe but can be punished by the 4 fast grappler characters. If Mugetsu was tweaked so that you could defend yourself after landing the opponent would be stuck with a mix up or potentially getting hit by the flip kick option. If they want to anti-air you they would have to do so as soon as you did 6P which makes them vulnerable to the palm strike. It's not a perfect option but it is an option which is a significant perk considering how crucial 6P is.
The reality is 6P is really one of his best moves and that can be agreed for sure. In all honesty though, I simply find more utility in fleshing out 6PK and 6PP over 6P44. The pay off for landing 6PK and the penalty for getting it blocked is just overall better. I'd take a regular standing neutral throw over a guaranteed 2T from 6P44K.

If anything though, I'd more so like to see an increase in the ability to delay 6PK and 6PP than the fixing of 44K.
[/quote]

I looked over your changes you posted, the first few stuck out so I commented on them immediately. Maybe if only some of these changes were implemented but if all of them were Hayate would be top tier easily. Maybe not Gen Fu or Lei Fang good but not far from.
And I don't see what's wrong with that if he won't overtake Lei, Fu, or Ayane.

Do you play online or offline? Online Hayate feels awful because it's impossible to hit confirm his handful of delayable strikes.

Again I think the frustration we all feel playing Hayate is the same and real. We have different answers to this in the end. As it is, the last balance patch was very minimalistic so I think we should really put some thought into this and come up with something that would be easy for them to implement on a coffee break and be subtle enough to make them consider it.
I play both online and offline. My scene is minuscule here in FL, but when I was back in MA, I was trying to get arond to playing with BBoy, Gill Hustle, Riceman, and MCPeanuts. They're great players and I'm sad I had to leave that area. :/i

Regardless, don't get me wrong, I understand the limits that online puts on the characters in this game and the upgrades it secretly gives to certain characters. It doesn't change the factor of frames though. At the fastest possible buffer the result will always be the same.

In DoA5 Vanilla Hayate was fine because although he didn't have a safe and efficient way to fish for damage set ups like other characters did but he got so much damage off his punishes that it didn't matter. 72 off of 236T. 72 off of SS P. Now that he no longer has that and his juggle damage was reduced overall, he now needs something to fill the glaring void.
I think he was really... fine. I think he was still lacking but he made up for it in damage for the most part, and that's ok. I'll expand on why I thought he was also incomplete. His wind dash in DOA4 seemed to be more of a means to a beginning. 236H~P was a NH stunning 6P from range. 236H~K would knockdown but leave you basically in their face and was really good for working the wall game initiation mix-up. 236H~2K would open up opponents who were ready for the latter choices if it caught them on half hit and for close hit, it'd put them on the ground allowing you to play a somewhat sickly ground game. These aren't moves you would consider cancelling into to get a good pay off mid stun game.

When DOA5 dropped and Hayate's dash was changed to the P+K uppercut with the wind dash K 2 in 1 launcher, it opened up a new door. This changed the idea from being means to a beginning to means to an end. This gave him two launchers to mix-up with mid stun and a high punch to put out there for a wall splat juggle or to reset the advantage if the player believed he would be SE'd out. (That's why I want to see Wind Dash K go back to Vanilla status with -7 on block and for 4H+K to go back to DOA4 status but at -4 to make it completely safe again.)

Giving him cancels like 3K6P+K, 4P6P+K, H+K6P+K, PP2K6P+K and 214P6P+K (not all need, just examples) would allow him to play that means to an end game. So like, 66P, 4P6P+K~K which would give him PPP, 33KK as a juggle in Vanilla or 66P, 3K6P+K, P+K which gives 8P, 7K or PP6PK at the wall.

In the end, I just want to build that up and finish the direction they seemed to want to take. Make sense?


I'll throw my own list of suggestions out.
Cool.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
Bronx, NY
Main Character
Hayate
3DS Friend Code
2535-4658-1818
PSN ID
Tenryuga
#11
There was really no reason for Hayate to lose 4H+K; That was a really great tool that I think should come back.

I'm a minimalist when it comes to the changes for Hayate.

I'll take everything Shade mentioned with some extra frames of delay on his mid hitting strings. I'm content with just that. Everything else is icing on the cake to me.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#12
Well I altered it again. Most stuff was cut off. I'd like to improve him as a character but most people seem to share this "minimalist" view which I find a bit annoying. Nothing I ever suggested put him to a point of being "unbeatable" but while he still wouldn't be "Gen Fu good", no one wants to get behind it.

I understand the "don't be greedy" aspect behind that, but if ya'll want to continue to play with lackluster/lame characters, that's fine. Also, that "well Eliot and Ein are bad so Hayate shouldn't get anything because they need buffs" mindset is irrelevant as well.

I always say it, but just because someone got shot doesn't mean that the person who got stabbed is no longer a factor. That's how people treat it though.

Patch Notes

Star system removed
Removed 9PP~/6PPP series
Removed relauncher ideas (PPP increased relaunch, etc.)
Aerial Retracking crossed out in hopes of discussion.
Removed 8P+KP damage buff
Some move property ideas removed (3P +0 on NH, etc.)
Added Running 2H+K for discussion

Also note that most of the space is taken up by the examples given for the launch height reworks. If I could add spoiler tags... I would but frankly I can't so realize it's not that big of a list, given the opportunity though I'll make a change.

http://takedazxdoa.blogspot.com/2013/08/hayate-got-buffed.html

Hayate needs 2 things

1. 236T > 7K 72Pts OR 236T on HCH to be +15
2. 4H+K to be brought back and have DOA 4.0 status. I.E launch on normal hit. remain safe block, still crush etc.
236T I definitely agree on. I'd rather see that Hayabusa styled HCT deal come into play. Only thing is I don't want him to outshine Hayabusa on guaranteed damage on it. So depending on the results of 3K, 3PP (which will be a factor whether we like it or not) is whether I would get behind this or not.

I had an idea. My idea revolved around 8P8K and BT 7K getting transitions into the wind dash. Only issue is, they're highly damaging but the nice part is that neither of those relaunch outside of tag. So basically after the kick, it finishes up like Kasumi wall splatting with 7K in a juggle. If she teleports in, she's in your face faster, and you can pressure them out of an immediate wake up kick with 2P.

Now I only bring that up to show that even though Hayate's is more damaging, it'd be balanced because he won't be able to do yolo juggles with that transition outside of tag and even then Wind Dash K will knock too far away after awhile.

As far as 236T goes, if his transition was changed to an animation that puts him in BT, he could BT 7K6P+K~K, PPKK/PP6PK for mad damage.. and at the wall, assuming he recovers fast enough, he could possible BT 7K6P+K, 8P, PP6PK assuming it won't wall splat... which I don't think it would but if it does, that's still fine. Of course there's other factors to work out but it's an idea.

As for 4H+K, I only believe it should go back to 4.1 status and the Wind Dash K should go back to 4.0 status on hit. The reason mostly revolves around the fact that 4H+K seemed to best perform as a poking tool in my eyes. At -5 it was nice in DOA4 but I'd even see -4 for it with the damage and knockdown properties it has as wind dash K now.

For that matter, Wind Dash K should revert to 4.0 and 5.0 status in my opinion. The reason is that I see his wind dash in this game as means to an end. How do you end combos? You launch the opponent and juggle them to death or you mix-up a must hold situation with a throw that will either chunk your opponent or reset them with you at frame advantage into some guaranteed stun game.

Hayate has the former and the launcher game possibility between wind dash P+K and K as a 50/50 and the throw to mix that up and in slow escapable situations or even wall situations, the P comes into play as well. Regardless you're not going to enter with any of these moves. That being said, I believe the K should serve as a constant 50/50 in the stun game mix-up which is why I suggested some new transitions as well like 3K6P+K and H+K/PPK6P+K as well as 214P6P+K at one point.

That's my opinion. What do you think?
 
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Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
#14
What I think, I think the Hayate is fine. I have discussed this list with you before and it is more like the character being rebuild than buffing him. Even still he does not need any buffs or rebuilding. In the beginning I was at fault because I swore the character was ass, and he was to a certain extent, but he has gotten a lot better over time.

I'll say this, figure out how the character is supposed to be applied in DEAD OR ALIVE 5 ULTIMATE. This is not DOA5, DOA4, or DOA3. That is the main problem, players forcing a play-style that Hayate no longer fits in 100%. They struggle beyond reason, do not see the error in their ways, and blame the character for their struggles/short comings. I also find it funny that when the character had all those tools that were lost/nerfed, most people still got their shit pushed in with him.

Like, 236T should not guarantee 72 pts of damage AGAIN. That was cool when he had it, but no. Way too much damage for a punish throw on NH. It should not give him +15 he will surpass 72 pts of damage guaranteed from what he can do BT. That shit is absurd. It is fine the way it is, it guarantees 56 pts of damage that is a grapple character's damage for a punish throw, he is a frame slower but he is getting their damage from a punish throw. You can also opt to stun your opponent, not a deep stun but you can initiate pressure situations as you see fit.

One more thing, miss me with the, "My character needs buffing because I play with them right and I still struggle and have a hard time winning." This post was directed toward Hayate and not your character that is probably fine too. This is how fighting games work, some characters will not be that great and have a bad time on the buttons. You either work with what you have or pick another character that may suit you.

I like players like Rikuto, Ryujin, Mr. Wah, and DontForkWitMe :cool:
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
Bronx, NY
Main Character
Hayate
3DS Friend Code
2535-4658-1818
PSN ID
Tenryuga
#15
Yes +15 on 236T would guarantee 3K and give him massive damage on BT opponent for a throw of that speed. I like the way his throws are constructed currently because it gives most of them a purpose.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#16
@Allan Paris

I wasted time writing up a whole argument but only 4 things need to really be said.

1. You didn't really read the list (again today) did you? If you did then you probably wouldn't have considered it a "reconstruction" of a character overall considering hardly anything is really changing his game completely but I'd love to be corrected. I'll give you the wind dash transitions but I have one reason why those are even viable to mention. 6P+K was built in a specific way and these transitions cater to it, considering the alterations of Wind Dash K as well.

2. If the character didn't need to be reconstructed then WHY does it make it ok to be hit with these nerfs out of reason? Of course he's not the only one hit and if you think that's my angle... then you're mistaken, but it makes the character less desirable, just like when the vortex with Kasumi was lost. She was still playable but a lot of the player base shifted away from her. So I'd like an answer to that as well.

3. 236T. I admit it. It does not need 72 on NT or even CT. This is why I suggested the change up on HCT to BT allowing BT 7K for a close hit and more damage.

4. Hayate is dubbed the jack of all trades. He's not supposed to cater to any style but allow you to play flexibly in any of those situations. None of the fore-mentioned changes (that remain on the list) change that except for the wind dash changes (transitions and all) but there's actual good reason behind it which I've said multiple times.

Hayate's new wind dash (back in Vanilla before 1.03) paved way to a newer style that was unexplored. The 50/50 on launchers gave the opportunity for a dirty game in the stun game with a high punch for frame advantage on block and grab for a HCT and guarding mix-up.

There only needed to be one factor to open the doors and that factor was the addition of 4P6P+K and PP2K6P+K. 3K6P+K and H+K6P+K would only complete what was started assuming wind dash K reverted to Vanilla status with it being -7 on block (still guaranteed punish but no free back combo).

What argument can you make against that? This isn't buff Hayate because he's weak. This is fix his things because there's no reason behind these changes... unless you'd like to walk me through these patch notes one by one and give me your honest and true opinion on each one. I've got time and to save your fingers some damage I'd give you my number or skype but hell, I don't see it.

If it's not broken it doesn't need to fixed, but that statement doesn't only apply to buffs so you guys should stop acting like it does.
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
#17
1. You didn't really read the list (again today) did you? If you did then you probably wouldn't have considered it a "reconstruction" of a character overall considering hardly anything is really changing his game completely but I'd love to be corrected. I'll give you the wind dash transitions but I have one reason why those are even viable to mention. 6P+K was built in a specific way and these transitions cater to it, considering the alterations of Wind Dash K as well.
Yes, I read the list. These changes allow him to be an aggressive character with damage buffs to attacks. From the looks of it, if he stuns his opponent all hell would break loose. So yeah, seeing as he does not play this way now, you are rebuilding Hayate to fit your specific needs and whoever else sat down with you with you to come up with these "buffs".

2. If the character didn't need to be reconstructed then WHY does it make it ok to be hit with these nerfs out of reason? Of course he's not the only one hit and if you think that's my angle... then you're mistaken, but it makes the character less desirable, just like when the vortex with Kasumi was lost. She was still playable but a lot of the player base shifted away from her. So I'd like an answer to that as well.
He is being nerfed because some things are doing too much. When they toned down his Command SSP, I didn't know it was producing that much damage. It still is hitting hard and blows up attacks but it was obliterating attacks before. That one particular nerf I can remember off the top of my head. Most of them that I saw was to his damage and if you have gone through his attacks you would know why they are doing it.

Kasumi is still "desirable" for me to play but I can't speak for everyone else. How do you know that about her player base? I still see the same players using her with some players trying different characters which is natural with a vast and growing cast of characters.

3. 236T. I admit it. It does not need 72 on NT or even CT. This is why I suggested the change up on HCT to BT allowing BT 7K for a close hit and more damage.
Why do this to this throw, why not just leave it alone? You do know on HCT 6T produces more damage (79 pts of damage) than 236T if it gave 72 pts of damage again. That is a pointless tweak to that throw. Please do not tell me that you wanted 7K to give more damage than 72 pts on a BT opponent with its Close Hit? You would add on 8+ points of damage from the previous 72 pts it gave on Close Hit for it to be a smarter choice over 6T.

With all that said, he has a few high damaging throws that you should be doing for HC situations, so why tweak the hell out of 236T. Its solid as it is.

4. Hayate is dubbed the jack of all trades. He's not supposed to cater to any style but allow you to play flexibly in any of those situations. None of the fore-mentioned changes (that remain on the list) change that except for the wind dash changes (transitions and all) but there's actual good reason behind it which I've said multiple times.
No, with those changes you made him a monster in the stun game. That mix up potential is just as good as Kasumi's. How do you not see that?! The changes we talked about a few months ago on FB were the same way, you made him nasty once he got a stun. You definitely made him a master of 1 trade while still remaining solid in other categories.

Hayate's new wind dash (back in Vanilla before 1.03) paved way to a newer style that was unexplored. The 50/50 on launchers gave the opportunity for a dirty game in the stun game with a high punch for frame advantage on block and grab for a HCT and guarding mix-up.

There only needed to be one factor to open the doors and that factor was the addition of 4P6P+K and PP2K6P+K. 3K6P+K and H+K6P+K would only complete what was started assuming wind dash K reverted to Vanilla status with it being -7 on block (still guaranteed punish but no free back combo).

What argument can you make against that? This isn't buff Hayate because he's weak. This is fix his things because there's no reason behind these changes... unless you'd like to walk me through these patch notes one by one and give me your honest and true opinion on each one. I've got time and to save your fingers some damage I'd give you my number or skype but hell, I don't see it.
I take it you are part of Team Ninja or are in a close relationship with them. For you to say what is incomplete with him tells me that. Correct me if I am wrong. It seems you have found a great use of his wind dash so what it so hard with using them as they are? You need an extra 4 more for what?

With these changes Hayate would be Kasumi on steroids minus the speed. However, the speed does not matter because his attacks do enough damage to out prioritize his opponents attacks so he'd beat them out anyway.

If it's not broken it doesn't need to fixed, but that statement doesn't only apply to buffs so you guys should stop acting like it does.
Yeah, but you are not fixing anything, you are rebuilding a character to fit your needs. There is a difference and you seem to be missing what I explained to you before on FB, and I am probably going to have to do it again if you are do not get this post. Don't worry, though, I am here for you.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#18
@Allan Paris

I'll agree on a few things.

1. Hayate doesn't really need "buffs" and my list consist of wants and not needs. If that is your point... let me give you some examples of why that fails.

Gen Fu didn't need CH 3PP, 33P, 33P, Dash in 16P as his stun to launch combo for cleaning house. He also didn't need the air throw as an option to vortex the opponent with 2T as the alternative with moderate damage and a similar reset. But they still gave it to him.

Hayabusa didn't need a low throw izuna other than to "complete" his throw game when baiting out HCTs. But they gave it to him.

Helena was doing just fine without a BT Critical Burst, but to complete her pressure game/stun game, they gave it to her.

Ayane didn't [need] and advanced mid punch hold. She could've simply gotten a new mid punch hold that does normal damage. But they still gave it to her.

Jann Lee didn't need a mid kick parry (because this is almost negligible when throwing out his dragon stance because the usual reactions against everyone except Rig and Sarah would be to mid punch, jab, or throw)... nor did need the Dragon Stance 6P+K. They simply could've made the DS P or DS 6P have a option to P4 or 6P4 to get back in. Simple as that... yet they gave him these options.

To say that these "wants" are out of the question goes against half of the changes given in this game. I can deal with necessities being priority over "wants" but to cut someone down simply because both are mixed in is ludicrous. Bogus. Ridiculous.

You're guilty of a few wants as well, so I've heard. You're just a little less passionate about it.

2. 1K, 8P+KP, 4P, 236T 7K, and 6K were doing too much damage. They all had good reason. Other things were in reason as well, like Hayate's guaranteed burst off of 3K on a BT opponent. I've admitted to certain nerfs being plausible as well.

3. Hayate is high (maybe A to B+) tier. We've discussed this, but he isn't top 5. Maybe in your eyes but he hasn't cracked top 5 too many times from the players I've heard from (hlp's like you 4 in the previous FSD stream, SR, Eric Boateng, BBoy, PL, and a few others in the FB group) and a lot of the time Hayate doesn't even make their top 10.
But don't get it confused. Hayate is still my point man... I'll still play this character until I drop this game for good but I won't continue to sit here and have my tools stripped away out of reason. Don't take that as all of his nerfs were uncalled for but take it as there a line to be drawn...

The reality is, just because they're wants doesn't mean you need to completely write them off. You could at least acknowledge all of the suggestions.

The returned strikes (PP4P~, 2KK, 4H+K) don't make him more aggressive since PP4P falls into the PP6P area, 2KK is only two buttons on a 50/50, and 4H+K works more so as keep out than getting in.

If you sit down and do the numbers, PPKK being buffed to the numbers mentioned wouldn't break it but make it more recognizable as an option in juggles. Wind Dash K being 25+20 may still be a bit much as a 2 in 1 launcher so 20+20 could work but regardless it's still within reason.

The juggle heights just give him a slightly better pay off for 4K6K and 9K and more so towards the top end of the stun game than the bottom end. 33K was a suggested NERF in reality yet no one really paid attention to that, huh?

The tracking glitches seem to be overlooked by TN. Why would a BT sweep like BT 2K (which he shares an animation with Ayane for) not track? Same applies to 66KK.

The frame changes don't make him aggressive outside of 236K (at +2) and 3PP at +3, and even then... that +3 relies on a hit confirm to make the best use of it... or he's getting checked for it I promise.

So that only leaves the wind dash cancels. Like I mentioned before, Hayate's wind dash pulls more so towards ending his offense and getting the opponent off him while taking a chunk of life. Kasumi has means to a beginning, middle and end with her moves.

She can initiate, push forward and end with her stance... be it clunky in some areas, most of that is covered with safety (9PK, 3P+KP, quick recovery on transitions into 3P+K). She could stand to have 3P+KK share the launch properties of 4PK... but that's just my opinion.
 
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Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
#19
Again, I guess you are with Team Ninja or are in close relationship with them to know what their plans and goals are for the characters? I don't know who you are quoting with that excerpt but I see no need to discuss it. TN is designing their characters the way they see fit and unless you are on the squad you DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS INCOMPLETE OR WHAT IS COMPLETE.

So they nerf him and your answer to that is rebuild him to fit your needs? How about finding a middle ground to what was nerfed that may not have needed it.

I am writing them off because you are rebuilding a character to play a certain way to that you feel will help you play better.

Those returned strikes do make him more aggressive. I feel like I am playing different game than you now. When PP4P stuns I can only presume he will have access to his wind dash options a well as the string follow ups for 4P. That alone opens up a whole new ball game after he stuns you, from the middle of the floor to wall, things will get ugly. Yeah, it is the same as PP6P but after all this time players low and high still get hit by it enough for PP4P to pose a problem if it is added. I also failed to mention that 4P tracks and causes a deep lift stun even after a fastest SE. It also crushes like crazy with good range.

4H+K is not just a keep out tool. I suggest you go watch PL play him and see how it use to be a potent poking tool for getting in with him. Hayate has way more options now to get in and keep out. To have that as a stand alone move with its safety is excessive. I mean, the kick is still there and crushes, it is also part of a mix up game now which is a lot more annoying than having it as a stand alone move.

2KK gives him a 50/50 in stun, you said that, and you don't see how you are giving him access to the stun game making him more aggressive? He can still apply pressure from 2K in stun the way it is now.

Alright, yeah, the BT sweep does not track. For visual reasons I can see that looking silly when a player SS it. If you can give me video evidence where this is a huge issue in his game play, I will crusade with you to get it changed. I am honesty trying to figure out when you would ever be in BT long enough to use the kick. You can't BT rush-down with him to use it as a get in tool. On block players have to worry about the various other attacks to even SS him if he does go BT. Don't get me wrong, a sweep should track, but how does this hurt him? I am literally baffled as to when you would have him BT long enough to where that could be used as a poke or an attack to use.

What he gains access to when he gets a stun is what makes him aggressive. Your "buff" list grants him a crazy mix up when he initiates a stun.

When you post I have to go and look at your changes to make sure I ma not crazy. I have to make sure I am understanding what I am telling you because you don't see it. You want 214P to cause a SD stun on all hits and +18 from the stun. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Like, 214P is a lunging crush move that covers a great deal of range. It blows up both wake up kicks, and he can evade some mids if a string is delayed a bit. This is an attack that you want to cause a SD stun giving him +18, where he can then follow up with a guaranteed 3K that gives him +20, and from your notes gives him access to his wind dash for all types of silly shit. That is if you don't choose to flat out launch them. You don't see this, man? Your changes gives him a mix up game that can rival Kasumi's. Plus he's hitting harder with more range.

That was just 1 of MANY dumb things you would be able to do going by your "buffs".

Oh, I know Kasumi's numbers, man. I know Hayate's as well. For her transitions low holding beats the majority of her options. The Launching mid kick gives a low launch on CH. It takes conditioning to get players caught in her options from her transitions. Hayate on the other hand has 1 launching option and 1 that could potentially launch, both options crush just to remind you. He also has a throw to scare players off from holding them. You can't low hold from his transitions to avoid him and there is no conditioning needed with his.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#20
"So they nerf him and your answer to that is rebuild him to fit your needs? How about finding a middle ground to what was nerfed that may not have needed it."

That was the original plan. I admit somethings were out of line, others not so much.

I can't think of any reason that 4H+K [needed] changes from 4 to 5 yet you keep fighting me on it. I understand, it makes him more aggressive... but the reality is, Wind Dash K is not a defensive tool right now. Explain it to me otherwise, because just because it crushes... it doesn't really change that because you're going IN with it.

The only thing that puts 2KK out of line is that 2 in 1 possibility, in other words it's just a low to mid 6PK. It only stuns on NH and Hayate doesn't need that so they could make it JUST knockdown.

Wind Dash K launching... without the 3K bullshit, it'd function similar to Ryu's 214P minus the CB opportunity. With it being easily slow escapable, it'll give him a pressure mix-up to bait late holds but that won't guarantee anything. Best was the first person to really utilize it correctly it seems though. @3:19 (though it was used earlier in the match and blocked then punished accordingly).


Fair enough on 214P and 3K as well as PPK/H+K. No excuses. It's stupid, and it's not that I didn't see it... I just kind of downplayed it in my head which I shouldn't have. I apologize.

I could argue PPK/H+K but I won't. My idea in Vanilla revolved around the wind dash transition but the stun was the 360 turn around rather than the 180, so that the opponent can hold out but has to deal with a 50/50 between Wind Dash P+K and Wind Dash K. So I'll cut this as well but it'll remain only slashed.

PPKK damage seemed to need to be nerfed but as it is now it's only 1 point more of damage than PP6PK so it's essentially pointless to ever use it. That's why I wanted it pushed up further but not back to DOA4 status. In DOA4 the damage was stupid, but the numbers I mentioned in the list are below the halfway point from now to then (I believe that's the case but it's been awhile since I wrote this up).

On the other hand, the frame numbers I believe would be fine to stay intact aside from 3PP on NH. I voted +3 (at the most) but I can go lower like +1. Just doesn't seem right for that move to be - on NH. Gen Fu is an example of someone who gets something like that but Hayate doesn't need +5 status damage... it's just advantage to make a point.
 
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