DOA5U Hitomi Match-up Rating Discussion

Crext

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Crext
#1
Howdy, thought we might start a discussion regarding Hitomi's matchups and what you believe to be the case.
Remember that this is just speculations at this time, but I'll still want to hear your opinions, so we could get some estimates up and running.

We'll use the same as in the old
http://www.freestepdodge.com/thread...live-5-tier-list-with-discussion-thread.2082/
where 5 means equal, 6 means you win 6 of 4 if you are equally good, and 4 the other way around.

I'll give an example as I view things.

Hitomi vs
Akira
- 5
Alpha152 - 5
Ayane - 5
Bass - 5
Bayman - 4 (in Hitomi's disfavor)
Brad - 5
Christie - 5
Eliot - 6 (in Hitomi's favor)
Gen Fu - 4
Hayate - 5
Helena - 4
Hitomi - 5
Jann - 6
Kasumi - 4
Kokoro - 5
Leifang - 4
Lisa - 5
Mila - 4
Pai - 5
Rig - 5
Ryu - 5
Sarah - 4
Tina - 4
Zack - 5
New crew:
Rachel - 5
Ein - 6
Momiji - 5
Leon - 5
Jacky - 5

I do not feel I am in no situation to judge, and want a discussion going. The "estimate" I bring forth is probably not complete and I want you to correct me!

Edit: based on feedback.

Updated info will from now on be supplied here: http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/the-un-official-tier-list-with-discussion-thread.3817/page-13
 
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Saber

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Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
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PSN ID
SaberKW
#2
Hitomi vs Kokoro is 4-6 in Kokoro's favor? You're...kidding, right?

I'd say they're about on the same level up close, but I'd say Kokoro has the edge. Both have their respective in-string mixup pressure, but Kokoro has better ability to play the stun game, can open up with in-string grabs, a plethora of high crushes and faster initial pokes. Once Kokoro stuns Hitomi, it's going to be hard to read her since punch parry can only be done from neutral. However, keep in mind a huge majority of Kokoro's deep stuns come from a high or mid punch, both is easily negated by Hitomi's punch parry. The only other real alternative would be Kokoro trying to score a CH 3K or 6KP, but Hitomi's advanced mid kick hold works wonders against her. Speaking of which, most of Kokoro's mixups start from P, 3K and Heichu (easily dealt with punch parry, advanced mid K hold and low hold). If Kokoro had a good high kick it would be a problem, but she only has K (slow and offers only a mere +15), H+K (anti-sidestep move and only guarantees stuff in open stance) and 9K (her only low crush - not even a crush since it's a high kick and is unsafe and slow as hell). The only time where Hitomi doesn't have the advantage is when Kokoro is BT, since she has better options from it (especially BT K and BT P+K), but sadly, Kokoro has no reliable method of actually transitioning into BT stance and doesn't have a BT forward dash. It's really a two-point hold for Hitomi since Kokoro can't open up without a NH low stun that she no longer has (6P+K). Each has excellent ranged tools (Hitomi has 46P and 236P whereas Kokoro has 66P+K - +frames on block, transitions to Heichu and a high crush, and 214P - best whiff punisher in the game). Don't bring in Kokoro's 44P sabaki in the equation, because Hitomi does NOT need to rely on mid punches to start her offense (exception to 236P as a whiff punisher). If it matters, Kokoro is a hell of a lot safer than Hitomi, but on the other hand, Hitomi's throws are much better now that Kokoro's 1T is holdable and her 3-part unbreakable throw did not get a damage buff.

It's either 6-4 or 5.5-4.5, but either way, Hitomi has the advantage.
 
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Crext

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Crext
#3
Good to see some discussion. :hitomi:

Regarding Kokoro, I'm just wondering if you have considered the 66p that puts her right in Hitomi's lap, which is safe, and very hard to read because of the range potential, and Hitomi can't crush it as it is mid punch. Hitomi's alternatives are highs (236K and 46P), which can be crushed, or an unsafe mid punch (236P) which you would throw punish every time.

Then you have the lows of 2H+K (sidestep K also), 1P (+T and it is normal game), 1K and 2K and all of her strings that follows which denies Hitomi her punch parry, and that stun on counter hit, where two of them even crush highs and all of them have decent range. Truth be told her footsies outclass Hitomi's by a landslide, and Hitomi's advantage in the range game vanish rapidly because of this. Her 6KP or just 6K is also a decent initiator for a mid kick, which is too fast to respond to and just another alternative in her arsenal.
Sure it is not the standard game for Kokoro against Hitomi, but she has plenty of tools to deny Hitomi her strengths.

This is just in addition to that her generally faster mid/high punches and crushes would beat much of what Hitomi throws out there, so the counterattack game is in Kokoro's favour, and the punch parry is initially, meaning you have to both time it right, and avoid throws, which you will be using a lot in the initial block to counterattack phase or whenever there is breathers. It is a battle of the minds more than the characters at that point.
The fact that Kokoro normally relies on mid and high punches as initiators is not really relevant when she has decent alternatives, and might even count in your favor as you know when you are more likely to throw her.
Sure it may take some practice to adjust, but Kokoro is more than versatile enough to play around Hitomi's strengths and put her off her game (afterwards you can start playing standard mid/high punch initiation).

She also turns into BT stance from 7K, 1K4K and you would be using these a lot anyways.

On that not I would have to somewhat disagree with not bring 44P into the equation as Hitomi is very midpunch heavy. Sure she does not need to use it, but it is a great handicap to have to go around it. Most of her best moves are mid punches, and 6p and 4p especially which is her main "low frame"- and "safe stance"- to stun moves.

Also Kokoro is a lot safer than Hitomi, which is a big deal. The throw punishing would decimate Hitomi because most of her end strings are both short to finish, easy to read and unsafe. Kokoro has much more moves from start to finish of a string, to either stop and start new strings, throw or simply finish without guaranteed counter damage. Hitomi's life bar will take decent amount of throw damage, which is guaranteed damage. That is something which count heavily in Kokoro's favor.

Hoping for another response from you!
I'll edit it down to 5, even though I still believe Kokoro has an advantage. That said this is not set in stone and could go either way based on further discussion.
 

Crext

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#4
Made some serious updates based on patches and so on. Again this is VERY estimation as it is simply one input (mine) and I would want to get some secondary opinions and discussions to go around.
 
Illinois (USA)
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Hitomi
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UncleBiscuits79
#5
So I would like to bring some life to this thread, as I love playing with Hitomi. One thing I want to mention is your helena matchup being 3 (against Hitomi). I think that number is a little too low. I think that maybe more of a 4-6 matchup, still against Hitomi. While Helena is VERY hard to deal with, given all her crazy mixups and BKO stance (I hate her crushing all my mids), I notice that most of Helena's strings are unsafe. I feel like if I can just block one or two of her strings, I can get in there and punish pretty well. Let me know thoughts.
 
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Crext

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#6
Well, that is Helena. She is almost always playing at frame disadvantage, and this would be the case against most of the cast. However she also kinda excels at it, which is what makes her such a good character. The rational for why that particular matchup is rated as low is that Hitomi can't play at her strengths vs Helena, as Helena can effectively crush all mids and has a far superior close up game. Further more Hitomi has particular weak lows, that excels at getting frame advantage more than damage or stuns, which has been her character for quite some time. However, as mentioned frame disadvantage is something Helena deals better with than most character. So in a way Helena both counter Hitomi's strong points, and at the same time doesn't have to fear the retaliation as much as the next guy. To top it off none of Hitomi's defences work well against Helenas superior mixups. She can go low, mid, high with kicks and punches alike, with delays and "anti-guess potential", taking away any advantage from parries and also somewhat lowering the benefits of :1::h:.

What Hitomi got going for her is basically a better long range poke composition. However it is not as good as it used to be and force resets more than anything. I'm not saying you are wrong however, it is just out of all of the cast I don't see anyone having a bigger advantage over Hitomi.
 
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Illinois (USA)
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Hitomi
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UncleBiscuits79
#7
Well, that is Helena. She is almost always playing at frame disadvantage, and this would be the case against most of the cast. However she also kinda excels at it, which is what makes her such a good character. The rational for why that particular matchup is rated as low is that Hitomi can't play at her strengths vs Helena, as Helena can effectively crush all mids and has a far superior close up game. Further more Hitomi has particular weak lows, that excels at getting frame advantage more than damage or stuns, which has been her character for quite some time. However, as mentioned frame disadvantage is something Helena deals better with than most character. So in a way Helena both counter Hitomi's strong points, and at the same time doesn't have to fear the retaliation as much as the next guy. To top it off none of Hitomi's defences work well against Helenas superior mixups. She can go low, mid, high with kicks and punches alike, with delays and "anti-guess potential", taking away any advantage from parries and also somewhat lowering the benefits of :1::h:.

What Hitomi got going for her is basically a better long range poke composition. However it is not as good as it used to be and force resets more than anything. I'm not saying you are wrong however, it is just out of all of the cast I don't see anyone having a bigger advantage over Hitomi.
Good stuff Crext. I can agree with everything you said. Helena is almost brokenly powerful. When I face Helena players online I let out a huge sigh and choose one of two strategies. 1.) keep her the HELL away from me with spacing and just take the reset situations (236P and 46P is my best friend). Or 2.) just keep attacking so she is always on defense. I find that if I let up for one sec I am DOOMED.

With that, any other thoughts on how to deal with helena?
 

Crext

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#8
Well, the main issues with Helena is her Bokuho stance. If she is good at using it she can crush you like crazy and turn it around into pretty much inescapable combos which can even be reset for frame advantage stun. She actually play much like Hitomi, only with a lot more crushes and low attacks. However, her spacing is not good, and since this is where Hitomi got the upper hand I'd try and do this match as slow as possible, try making her whiff and not be afraid to use reset moves.

However, :6::6::K: and :3::P: are decent punishing moves that perhaps work particular great against her as they stun on counter hit. If you get her into stun, she got nothing special to defend with and your offense could be like normal, into launch and juggle. (:6::6::K: even gives you 13 frames on normal hit and can thus be follow up with jabs, and can also be delayed into :6::6::K::K: and free canceled into throw (Pref :6::f:)).

So ye, your 2 approaches I'd say are the right ones, but you should perhaps not do 1 or the other, but use the spacing to get into an advantage position in CQC. Of course, you may want to mix it up with constant resets etc, but using some of the stun approaches may be good, even :8::K: and :1::K::8::K: may work well if she is in a favorable position. Things like :3::h+k: + another :3::h+k: or :2::h+k: (followed by for example :6::6::K:) can work wonders as well.

If she is in Bokuho or use it as an approach move, then :3::h+k: is always a go to move as you will hit her, and it does "ok" damage too, even if you don't manage to force tech her.

Though overall I'd say just be patient. It is an uphill battle.
 

Tenryuga

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Bronx, NY
Main Character
Hayate
3DS Friend Code
2535-4658-1818
PSN ID
Tenryuga
#9
I would say the Helena MU is 6-4. If you guys say this is a 7-3 then it would be 8-2 for Ein and it is not that lopsided for him. As stated before Helenas BKO presents some problems for Hitomi in close range due to how crushable her strings are but some of Hitomi's strings have mid and low follow ups that she can use to hit helena out of BKO. Hitomi is also very competent at spacing and can keep Helena in check with 3H+K, 4PP, 6H+K etc. 46P isn't an ideal choice for whiff punishment in this MU so stick to 236P for that. Really the only things I see presenting problems for hitomi in this MU are helenas crushes and bko and hitomi has answers for those even if they are not many, or not super effective which leads me to say 6-4 at worst.
 

deathofaninja

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ALPHA-152
#11
Alright, so I've been thinking about the 6-4 match-up (Tina's favor). I'm thinking a reason behind that pick is Tina's assortment of moves that track in contrast to Hitomi's. Of course 4 H+K is a move they share, but Hitomi doesn't have a a guaranteed follow-up for that move, and 1P shared equally if I recall correctly.

Their speed kind of varies, but it's not too far separated. I want to know more of why Tina wins this match-up. I'm actually kind of struggling with it. Of course the things I struggle with can vary from player to player. Personally it's some of the delayable strings I have problems with specifically. I don't really understand how one would incorporate the usefulness of delay into a MU.

Since Tina wins this MU, can I get some pro-tips on how to destroy her? Cause I'm seeing it as more of a 5-5.
 

Crext

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#12
Alright, so I've been thinking about the 6-4 match-up (Tina's favor). I'm thinking a reason behind that pick is Tina's assortment of moves that track in contrast to Hitomi's. Of course 4 H+K is a move they share, but Hitomi doesn't have a a guaranteed follow-up for that move, and 1P shared equally if I recall correctly.

Their speed kind of varies, but it's not too far separated. I want to know more of why Tina wins this match-up. I'm actually kind of struggling with it. Of course the things I struggle with can vary from player to player. Personally it's some of the delayable strings I have problems with specifically. I don't really understand how one would incorporate the usefulness of delay into a MU.

Since Tina wins this MU, can I get some pro-tips on how to destroy her? Cause I'm seeing it as more of a 5-5.
Well, these numbers are getting really old and are replaced by the main MU discussion thread.

Anyways, as for Tina, I'd say watch out for her "sit down" pose at the neutral game. This indicates that she probably will come at you with the 12 frame mid punch. Advance hold this for some good damage. Also there is the "backward kick" (was it 11 frames(?)) when she is facing away. This too can often be advanced held. Other than that it is rarely a good idea to hold much, and be careful with the over jump -> delay stuff so they track/hit target.

Other than that they are both fairly slow / got the same speed. Punch parry is dangerous to use, so I'd say the best bet is just to out space her and never make it into CQC. If you manage to do this decently you'd win this fairly easily. With the changes to 236k it has become harder I guess. I'd also say it is a lot about making the right reads. She out damages you in almost everything, but has fewer options, so if you manage to figure out the throw frequency you'd have the upper hand and be able to guess most setups fairly often with holds. Also, if uncertain, just take the damage, unless we speak game ending powerblows.
 
Illinois (USA)
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Hitomi
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UncleBiscuits79
#13
Alright, so I've been thinking about the 6-4 match-up (Tina's favor). I'm thinking a reason behind that pick is Tina's assortment of moves that track in contrast to Hitomi's. Of course 4 H+K is a move they share, but Hitomi doesn't have a a guaranteed follow-up for that move, and 1P shared equally if I recall correctly.

Their speed kind of varies, but it's not too far separated. I want to know more of why Tina wins this match-up. I'm actually kind of struggling with it. Of course the things I struggle with can vary from player to player. Personally it's some of the delayable strings I have problems with specifically. I don't really understand how one would incorporate the usefulness of delay into a MU.

Since Tina wins this MU, can I get some pro-tips on how to destroy her? Cause I'm seeing it as more of a 5-5.
Hi, I mostly agree with Crext, but I will add my two cents in as well.

So while Tina shares the 1P with Hitomi, Tina's 1P has better properties. I think it does a sit down stun on counter hit, while Hitomi's does not (you have to get the hi-counter to get a sitdown with Hitomi). Hitomi's 1P does give a slight frame advantage on Counter hit though, but still not as good as Tina's version.

Tina always screws up my game with that move, until I start either holding it, or else crushing it (I like 8H+K, or 3H+K to stuff Tina's 1P if she is abusing it). My strategy against Tina players is to STAY AWAY FROM HER. I think that one thing Hitomi has as an advantage over Tina is the spacing game. I like to use moves like 6H+K, 236P, 6P+K, and 236K to keep Tina in the mid range, and then 'CONFUSE AND DESTROY" with P+K, PP (HOLD last P for advantage and throw in delayed input to confuse) or any of her strings starting with 3K or 1K, using any mix up version that you like/need. They can hit, do decent damage, and still keep her in the mid range, away from you.

One move I like alot too is 2P+K. It does get you a little too close to Tina, but it at least stuns on normal hit, so you can continue the stun game, or do like I do and just go for the reset.

EDIT: Forgot to mention 46P as a good keepout/spacing move too. It's unsafe on block, but if you are using it at mid range, it's hard for most chars to punish it.

FURTHER EDIT: The move is 2P+K. I incorrectly had the move listed as 3P+K before, but I think both inputs produce the same move.
 
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Illinois (USA)
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Hitomi
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UncleBiscuits79
#14
By the way, does anyone have any thoughts on Hitomi match-ups against the newer characters (MarieRose, Phase4, Girl Tengu)?? I would really like some discussion and strategies against these characters.

I know it's just my experience, but I haven't had too much trouble with Phase4 or Tengu so far, but Marie Rose feels like a tough matchup for me. She has a knack for stuffing alot of my best Hitomi attacks, has better attack speed, and is parrying me into dust with that twirly thing she always does.

Thoughts on matchups and strategies??
 

Crext

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#15
By the way, does anyone have any thoughts on Hitomi match-ups against the newer characters (MarieRose, Phase4, Girl Tengu)?? I would really like some discussion and strategies against these characters.

I know it's just my experience, but I haven't had too much trouble with Phase4 or Tengu so far, but Marie Rose feels like a tough matchup for me. She has a knack for stuffing alot of my best Hitomi attacks, has better attack speed, and is parrying me into dust with that twirly thing she always does.

Thoughts on matchups and strategies??
Marie Rose is punchparry and CQC into stungame that counts. Tbh, she is fairly weak over all so you can play the space game against her as well. Never met any really good MRs so can't really say anything for sure.

Against PH4 you play the space game until she forces you to block something. Then I'd say block until string end and counterthrow with 6T. Almost everything she does gives you a garanteed 7 frame throw at the end. From there you work the CQC frame advantage game. Don't hold her unless you see a pattern, and don't counterattack unless she clearly cancels. She doesn't got the best of throws at low frames. Just remember that if she gets you into stun lock she packs the biggest punch in the game and will end you with a juggle throwstring too, so panic holding might be a better idea here.

For Tengu I'd say everything is opposite as the two above, and you can make more use of the CQC neutral game, and don't be afraid to use close in moves as much. 2p gives you frame advantage on everything (honestly, neutral game gives you advantage on everything, just beware crushes).
 
Illinois (USA)
Main Character
Hitomi
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UncleBiscuits79
#16
Marie Rose is punchparry and CQC into stungame that counts. Tbh, she is fairly weak over all so you can play the space game against her as well. Never met any really good MRs so can't really say anything for sure.

Against PH4 you play the space game until she forces you to block something. Then I'd say block until string end and counterthrow with 6T. Almost everything she does gives you a garanteed 7 frame throw at the end. From there you work the CQC frame advantage game. Don't hold her unless you see a pattern, and don't counterattack unless she clearly cancels. She doesn't got the best of throws at low frames. Just remember that if she gets you into stun lock she packs the biggest punch in the game and will end you with a juggle throwstring too, so panic holding might be a better idea here.

For Tengu I'd say everything is opposite as the two above, and you can make more use of the CQC neutral game, and don't be afraid to use close in moves as much. 2p gives you frame advantage on everything (honestly, neutral game gives you advantage on everything, just beware crushes).
Good stuff as usual Crext. I don't have enough matchup experience yet to make a call, but I'm interested to know how you would rank those matchups against a Hitomi. Do you think they are all 5-5 or slightly lopsided?
 
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Crext

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Crext
#17
Good stuff as usual Crext. I don't have enough matchup experience yet to make a call, but I'm interested to know how you would rank those matchups against a Hitomi. Do you think they are all 5-5 or slightly lopsided?
I'd say she is at 6-4 vs Marie (Again, never met a "good" Marie), 6-4 PH4 (Cause punch parry and the ease of getting 6T after blocks), and 5-5 vs Tengu.

I think perhaps one of the most difficult things with the new characters (and their matchups) is that you (as Hitomi) has known move sets that everyone are fairly familiar with, while one is not familiar with the other character. This has both pros and cons, where cons is that there is none who has perfected and figured out all the tech for the new characters yet. However when you fight a new character, you'd not know the range, crush distances, maybe even frames and generally "counter moves". Marie Rose for example doesn't even have a frame data chart here at FSD, so you kinda have to "feel" your way. PH4 is a bit more familiar as she share many traits with Kasumi, though that may fool you from time to time (12 frame mid, hello! (We beat her at +1)). Some start with figuring out the fastest high, mids and lows, and then leave it at that (as the neutral game usually comes down to this). Maybe 8K (great range) can be used more here? We don't know, maybe we'll see it play out at the highest level during TFC.
 

Tenryuga

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Hayate
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Tenryuga
#19
Make use of your 6H+K, tracking lows and 4P variants to discourage JAK. Try to refrain from using too many strings in neutral that get blown up by JAK such as 3KP. You should only use strings that contain highs in neutral (PP6P, 66P) to bait JAKs out that you can punish later by using different followups like the mids (PP4P, PP6PP, 66PP) or tracking low (PP6P2K, 66P2K).

Use your punch parry. Christie's speed comes from her punches; Getting a parry off on her allows Hitomi some good momentum and also allows Hitomi to strike back and counter poke more often since Christie will have to start using high kicks, mid kicks or her slow lows to avoid getting parried.

Do not engage Christie in close range. If you have space use that to your advantage because you control it better than her. 6H+K and 4P will stop people that use JAK to approach you like animals. 2H+K will as well though I would be careful with this one. Punish bad whiffs with 236P. 46P is the secondary whiff punisher in this MU due to it being high and losing to JAK movement.

When you pick up a hefty amount of + frames I recommend using your tracking moves more often to lock Christe down. Once you have her pinned by doing this then you can start using strings and 6T loops because she will be hesitant to JAK.
 
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angelkait

New Member
Main Character
Hitomi
#20
May I have some help/ tips on the lisa match up? I can never seem to get in or really touch her with her spacing options and OHs but I noticed the match up here is a 5.
 
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