DOA5LR Honoka's force tech and unholdable setups thread.

Nikotsumi

Well-Known Member
Italy
Main Character
Honoka
#1
I wanted to look for more unholdable and force tech setups for Honoka, but there's was not a thread dedicated to this and I think nobody would like to look at every single page of every single thread to find them, so I though I should make one.
Now, I'm gonna put all the setups I know of, of course if you know other setups, feel free to post them here and I'll update this post! (giving you the credit for the setup).

Lets begin! :honoka:

The following moves are used as a combo ender in the open space:

-:6::K::K: > :2::P: ( Provided by @CookingMama )
This works if the opponent techs to the right or left side, it he/she back techs Honoka will be left at -17f, and then the opponent could low throw her.

-:1::P: > :6::6::p+k: or :3::3::K: or :8::P:
Opponent has to tech to the sides. If the opponent doesn't tech you can still block/hold wake up kicks.

The following moves are used as (full) wall combo enders :

- :P::K: > :2::H+P: > :214::p+k:

-:2::p+k::4:(:6::P:) > :3::P::P::P:
Opponent has to tech to the sides.

- :2::p+k::4:(:6::P:) > :H+P: > :214::p+k:

- :2::p+k::4::6::P: > :H+P: > :214::p+k: (lightweights)

-:p+k::P::P: > :2::H+P: > :P:

-:3::P::P::P: > :P: > :3::K::P:

-:3::P::P::P: > :P: > :236::h+k:
Opponent has to tech to the sides.

-:3::P::P::P: > :K: > :4::6::P: or :3::h+k: or :4::h+k:

-:P::P::P::6::P: > :6::H+P: > :3::K: or :6::6::P: (this works only on lightweights)

- :6::6::p+k: > Heichu :P: (whiff) > :214::p+k:

-Heichu :p+k: > Hissatsu no Kamae :H+P:/:2::H+P: > :1::K:

Throws :

-:6::H+P: (to a back turned opponent) > :6::K:
In order for this to work, Honoka's back has to be against a wall, otherwise the opponent will be too far.

-Hissatsu no Kamae :2::H+P: > :4::6::P: or :3::h+k: or :4::h+k:
It's better to use :3::h+k: here because it could tech the opponent if he decided to not tech, however he could still use wake up kicks.

Unholdable Power Blow :

:3::3::K: (against a wall, critical level 3 or after a CB) > :3::3::P: > :6::p+k:/:h+k: > :1::p+k: (full charged)
This works only on lightweights.

The following move is used as a combo ender in the open space (opponent cannot use wake up kicks) :

-:6::K::K: > :2::P: > :3::h+k:/:1::P: (+18f) ( Provided by @CookingMama )
This works if the opponent techs to the right or left side, it he/she back techs Honoka will be left at -17f, and then the opponent could low throw her.
Note that the opponent can tech even after :2::P:, leaving you at +29f.

-:1::P: > :3::h+k: (18f)
:1::P: causes a hard knowckdown, this means you have to delay the :3::h+k: in order for it to hit the opponent



The following moves are used as (full) wall combo enders (opponent cannot use wake up kicks) :


-:6::K::K: > :1::K: (+15f) ( Provided by @CookingMama )
If the opponent techs, you'll be left at -8~14, but there are still follow ups.

-:2::p+k::4::6::P: > :1::K: (+15f) ( Provided by @CookingMama )

-:2::p+k::4:(:6::P:) > :1::K: (+15f) ( Provided by @CookingMama )

-:p+k::P::P: > :1::P: > :2::P: (+24f) or :3::h+k:/:1::P: (+18f)
If the opponent techs you'll be left at -9.
Note that the opponent can tech even after :1::P:, leaving you at +27f.

-:3::P::P::P: > :2::K::K: > :3::h+k:/:1::P: (+18f)
If the opponent techs, you'll be left at -7, but there's a follow up.
Note that the opponent can tech even after :2::K::K:, leaving you at +18f.

-:3::P::P::P: > :2::K::K::K: (+7).

-:4::P::P::P: > :214::p+k: > Bokuho :P: (+24f)
If the opponent techs, you'll be left at +5 in Bokuho stance.
Note that the opponent can tech even after :214::p+k:, leaving you at +5f.

-:P::P::P::6::P: > :2::h+k: (-3f) (this works only on lightweights)
If the opponent techs, you'll be left at -29. NEVER USE THIS XD.

-Heichu :p+k: > Hissatsu no Kamae :H+P:/:2::H+P: > :2::P: > :3::h+k:/:1::P: (+18f)
If the opponent techs, you'll be left at -2.

-Bokuho :P::P::P: > :P: > :2::K: or :2::K::K: > :3::h+k:/:1::P: (+18f)
If the opponent techs you'll be left at -9~10.

-Bokuho :P::P::P: > :P: > :2::K::K::K: (+7f)

Half walls :

-:p+k::P::P: > :2::P: > :3::h+k:/:1::P: (+18f)

-:3::P::P::P: > :6::K::2::K: (+15f)
If the opponent techs, you'll be left a -18.

-:P::P::P::6::P: > :1::K: (+15f) ( Provided by @CookingMama )
If the opponent techs, you'll be left at -25~30.
 
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CookingMama

Active Member
Main Character
Honoka
Steam
CookingMama
#2
You should mention if these work for half walls, full walls, or both. The 6KK and 2P+K46P ones only work on full walls.

On half-walls PPP6P > 1K works, but not on full walls.

Edit:

I went looking more closely at the ones I listed above. While the 6KK and 2P+K say we are negative I couldn't interrupt the 1K1K at all using Honoka's 11 frame 6P while the computer did the set up on me. But if I did 1KK I was able to catch it, but the upside is you just fall to the ground. With this one on full walls there is a bit of a camera switch depending on how they tech. If they tech to the sides they are almost behind Honoka, which the both strings still catch. I was able to interrupt the PPP6P one ezpz so we can throw that into the garbage. Halfs walls are unkind to Honoka, most of her good enders don't give her anything worth while.

For Half-walls
3PPP > 1K
This one is weird, if the opponent techs and you continue 1K1K it seems only 11 frame moves will hit (Honoka's 6P can counter hit, Hayate's (12 frames) can not), but it seems the window to counter hit is small, it only worked a handful of times.

6PP > 214P+K > P
Works as the other ones do. Still not a fan of this set up, too easy to block and to break if the opponent techs.

I think a few things worked with 3H+K but that is a weird move, if they tech they are at +4 (okay) with nothing to fear.

Overall I think our ground game options kinda suck :/ 1K is risky but it can work, especially if the opponent doesn't know the downsides. 214P+K seems safer, but it has less damage from the wall hit and you really don't get a really mix up if they tech (you are stuck in bokuho with only mids). The rest are seem to actually only be good if they don't tech. I'm testing them myself and getting way different numbers (all negative).
 
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Likes: Nikotsumi

CookingMama

Active Member
Main Character
Honoka
Steam
CookingMama
#3
Gonna revive this with a little cute thing. When you achieve a force tech with 1K you can actually delay the second 1K of the string enough to hit the person when they get back up, lol. Not super or anything but cute enough.

I've personally have been trying to shift my entire style of play towards using the 1P hard knockdown for almost every juggle I do. Just keep the resets and the pressure coming on a never ending Honoka train. I rarely miss the damage from 2P+K46P. Though one problem I have come into is with heavies, the hitbox with 1P is so crappy I rarely find myself able to use it. I often shift towards 6KK or 6K2K to keep them close. My plan now is to search for unholdables or something from there. Or even something like how you can get a 2P for free (you either hit them or whiff safely) after the HnK T - 8T throw.
 

Nikotsumi

Well-Known Member
Italy
Main Character
Honoka
#4
1P as a hard knockdown is awesome, in both cases (if the opponent techs or not) Honoka keeps the advantage.
On heavies I've never used 1P, in most juggles (critical level 1/2) you just have to do PPP6P and replacing it with 1P means sacrificing a lot of damage.

I remember I did find something with 6K2K, though I forgot it as I never use it in juggles and evidently it wasn't interesting enough to make me use it. Next time I play, I'm gonna try to remember what was it and maybe even find something else xD
 

CookingMama

Active Member
Main Character
Honoka
Steam
CookingMama
#5
It just sucks that with heavies it is pretty much Launch > 1P. Really wish we could do something with them but oh well.

Also fun fact! 66K is a hard knockdown as well! Pretty useless since you have to give up all damage for it but it is really cool looking! And you can go straight into running for the Running H+K force tech.
 

Nikotsumi

Well-Known Member
Italy
Main Character
Honoka
#6
Updated the first post with an interesting thing about 6KK when used as a combo ender in the open space.
Doing a 2P right after is both a force tech and unholdable setup! (Zack can do the same lol) which is awesome imo. 6KK is not useless after all.....
Thanks to @CookingMama for finding this out! (hopefully we're not the only ones here xD)
 

CookingMama

Active Member
Main Character
Honoka
Steam
CookingMama
#8
So I have a bunch of unholdables lined up to share!


This one does not work on lightweights! This one okay nice since it opens up the mid-low mixup game.


This is the force tech we've been waiting for. 236P+K that actually leaves us plus! And backturned! This is great since the mixup turns to a safe mid vs a unsafe low that trips on normal hit. If they try to hit a button booty bump gets the guaranteed juggle while the BT1K leads to a force. You sacrifice a good chunk of damage but still fun!


And this is the unholdable we've been looking for! Unholdable shoulders! This should work on all-weights but you are most likely going to use this juggle ender against lights because of the hitbox. From this set-up we actually get two unholdables, 1P and 4P+K. This is significant because you can condition the opponent to block low to punish the 1P then spook them with the 4P+K. While this hits on normal hit so no juggle but if you consider it an extension of the previous juggle you are adding 44 points of unscaled damage to the combo. The combo in the video was 110 on normal hit. Add the 44 points and we're at over half-life.

I have two more set-ups I need to re-record footage for since I messed up before hand. One is an open-space unholdable (my favorite of the batch I did): 3K (and more)! The set up is 6K > 6K in stun whiff P then 3K/P+K/66P. The next set up is a copy of the 3PPP > H+K > 8P+K Christie tech. While it is slightly worse for Honoka the buffer system gives us P+K if they tech, and belly flop if they do tech. For Honoka the set up is 3PPP > 6T > 8P+K.
 
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CookingMama

Active Member
Main Character
Honoka
Steam
CookingMama
#11
The only ones I'm aware of are both lows :
6T >
- P > 1K
- 2T > 2K
I can't seem to get the first one to work and the second one only works from a back tech which no one is going to do. Unholdables usually can't work unless the opponent has the option to wake-up kick or tech roll. I guess this is a weird bit but certainly not at all useful.

Are there any unholdables after Honokas 6T to a wall?
I mostly stick to do her mid guardbreaks or tracking moves. People are going to want to panic and try and sidestep or will block but try and hit a button after a guardbreak, which is a nice way to net some counter hits and begin bullying. 214P+K looks awesome on paper but it is less good in practice because it sometimes won't reach (this seems to happen a lot in home or places were the corners are crowded and might push someone sideteching farther away). My favorite options are 1P, 4H+K, 2H+K, or H+K.
 

Nikotsumi

Well-Known Member
Italy
Main Character
Honoka
#12
I can't seem to get the first one to work and the second one only works from a back tech which no one is going to do. Unholdables usually can't work unless the opponent has the option to wake-up kick or tech roll. I guess this is a weird bit but certainly not at all useful.
Really? Last time I checked it worked.
Anyway, these are indeed not reliable at all, I don't think I've ever tried using them in a match.
Usually, the best thing to do is a mid-tracking moves, or moves that leave her at + on block like you stated. The only highs worth to go for are 236H+K and 8H+K.
What I generally do is using PP to get the right timing. For example PP > 4K(2)/46P/4H+K/H+K/8H+K/33T etc.... PP2K can work fine too as the only low mix-up.
P > 214P+K when I expect them to get up "normally" (which is highly unlikely).
 
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