How do you deal with closeup pressure as Lisa?

squarewindow

Active Member
Standard Donor
London
Main Character
Lisa
#1
I'm talking about characters like Kokoro, Christie, Helena... characters which just seem to have an endless ability to keep pushing forward and attacking. Other than 2p and 4h+k I'm really struggling lately against these rushdowners. Admittedly I'm talking about online, so that probably doesn't help. Is it just a case of learning how and when to counter the opponent or are there any good interrupt moves I'm totally missing? I have no fucking idea what Kokoro and Helena are doing so just tend to eat up the pressure. Grateful for any advice from expert Lisa-ers, thanks.
 

Tempest

Well-Known Member
North Carolina
Main Character
Phase 4
#2
I'm talking about characters like Kokoro, Christie, Helena... characters which just seem to have an endless ability to keep pushing forward and attacking. Other than 2p and 4h+k I'm really struggling lately against these rushdowners. Admittedly I'm talking about online, so that probably doesn't help. Is it just a case of learning how and when to counter the opponent or are there any good interrupt moves I'm totally missing? I have no fucking idea what Kokoro and Helena are doing so just tend to eat up the pressure. Grateful for any advice from expert Lisa-ers, thanks.
You're going to need to be patient in all of those matchups, Lisa does not have many good crushes beyond the ones you've mentioned, though don't forget about BT 4P as it can be useful in certain situations, and 1P which is slow but solid. 4H+K is a great move, but you can't rely on it due to it's unsafely and 2p is often a risky bet as at 16 frames it's slower than most mids.

Also don't forget that unlike most characters, Lisa gets unblockable followups if her jab lands on counter hit and is + on block, so don't be afraid to throw it out there when you know it's your turn.



:kokoro:
Depending on the player she can be very difficult to get away from as she has many safe moves such as 66P and her 6ppp string that you cannot throw punish. Look for opportunities to throw punish moves such as 6KP and 3k4K that many Kokoro players are used to getting away with that you can punish due to Lisa's faster throw speed.

Kokoro has a lot of strings, but the general rule is that she doesn't have any tracking outside a few specific moves so if your opponent is finishing strings be sure to sidestep as Lisa's sidestep P is fast enough to be guaranteed in a lot of those situations.

If they aren't finishing strings you're going to have to make a read on free cancels. I'd recommend using mids as Kokoro has several solid high crushes that a competent player won't be afraid to use. Don't be afraid to sit and block, as Kokoro does not have any stunning low options to open you up. You can afford to be patient and wait your turn unless they start going for Heichu throw which will force you to start hitting buttons.

:helena:
Helena is not much faster than Lisa, but she has incredible crushing moves and bokuho grants her a lot of evasiveness. Study Helena's strings and learn when you can throw her, Lisa's low offensive hold is very useful in this matchup.

Be careful going for non guaranteed throws and OHs in the neutral because Bokuho will stuff that along with highs. Be wary of going for mids that she can Bokuho duck (4H+K can't be ducked).

Like Kokoro Helena doesn't have a lot of tracking, but unlike Kokoro she has lots of stunning lows that you need to watch out for. There really isn't much else to say beyond be patient, block and punish and try to get her off of you ASAP. She's also not that safe unless she finishes certain strings, many of which only have one possible followup.

:christie:
This matchup is incredibly abusive, Christie has an 11 frame mid you can't even bank on 4H+k at round start. She's much faster than you, and has many strong tools that can prevent you from getting an offense started.

Christie has incredibly long dynamic strings, many of which can transition into her JAK sidestep stance. Luckily as Lisa you can low OH her out of some of those situations. You're going to need to just study her strings, there really isn't an easy way out of that as she has tracking in weird places, safety where you'd assume there was frame disadvantage (hit 9P on the training dummy and try not to be upset) and other things that won't make sense without looking at it in the lab first.

If there's any saving grace in this matchup it's that Christie's throw and hold damage is pretty low (do be very sure to keep your back against the wall though) so you can afford to be a bit more forceful with your holds and strikes. For all her pressure, Christie does not have many stunning lows (though many of her lows have followups), so be patient and stay focused on catching her free cancels and finished strings.


If you ever encounter these characters again, be sure to save the replay. Even if you don't post it you can ask for help with specific moves that were giving you trouble.
:La Mariposa:
 

squarewindow

Active Member
Standard Donor
London
Main Character
Lisa
#3
Tempest, thank you so much for taking the time to write all that up. It is really, really helpful and exactly the sort of advice I was looking for.

Although I have been playing DOA5 since it came out I am kind of slow and don't fully understand the game systems and consider myself really bad in comparison to the time I have put into the game, but I am OK with that. I also only play Lisa, so only know the strengths and weaknesses of the other characters through fighting against them and seeing what works and what doesn't. So this post is really very helpful indeed. Thanks again.
 
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Tones

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Australia
Main Character
Tengu
Gamertag
bechatron
#6
Character knowledge, using the crush system, using the triangle system (throws>counters>attacks>throws) and GTFO moves (4k+f).

There's also attacks where you're knock down if they hit you such as 9p from the i15, 66k from i20 2k+f from i17 splash is from i20.

7p is really really weird. it has a built in fuzzy so it avoids all highes from i0-i13 then it crushes then at some point anything can hit you for a few frames for and it counts as a normal hit. Then it crushes lows and the weird hitbox makes other attacks miss as well but if you do get hit you get knocked down.

Watch Gruff's performance at TFC. One thing he did well was knowing when to be distant and defensive, forcing the opponent to come in at him where he'd just interrupt. Stopping their close in offense before they started it.
 
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#7
Hey guys, I'm looking for some advice against Momiji, Helena and Christie. I've hit somewhat of a wall against those three characters. To be honest, at times I feel that fighting against Christie is auto-lose at this point. Obviously, I don't want that to be the case, but like I said earlier, I've hit something of a wall against them. Any advice against them? Or would any of you recommend a sub to deal with those characters easier? I'm talking about offline too, if that helps
 

Tempest

Well-Known Member
North Carolina
Main Character
Phase 4
#9
Hey guys, I'm looking for some advice against Momiji, Helena and Christie. I've hit somewhat of a wall against those three characters. To be honest, at times I feel that fighting against Christie is auto-lose at this point. Obviously, I don't want that to be the case, but like I said earlier, I've hit something of a wall against them. Any advice against them? Or would any of you recommend a sub to deal with those characters easier? I'm talking about offline too, if that helps
If you can get your hands on some replays or give me a more accurate picture of what's specifically giving you trouble with those characters it would help. Other than that

:momiji:
Lots of hilariously safe neutral pressure. Luckily with Lisa you can use stuff like 7k or 236k to combat her at the ranges where she's likely to throw out a 66P or a H+K, or whatever the Momiji player likes doing. Don't forget 66T is a great tool to use to beat out pokes.

In close range you need to respect her speed, but Momiji doesn't have any scary ways to open you up or crush your moves so just block and wait your turn.

1P can be a common pressure tool for Momiji players, so learn to react to it's followups and be able to read the free cancel because it's quite negative on block. If you find yourself getting crushed by it frequently cut down on using your jab.

If 6PK is happening to you on block, either learn to fuzzy guard it or at the very least learn what the throw looks like so you can just block/sidestep the strikes.

Go in the lab and figure out your favorite punish for her 7k, I'm partial to 7k myself.

Momiji doesn't have anything especially scary in stun either, most Momiji players are looking for a quick stun launch from 8p, 8k, or 66K. 6PK also launches now so be on the lookout for that. You won't likely be seeing 236P+K from anyone but the most balls to the wall Momiji players in stun so if you need to guess high/mid kick are your best bets.

Momiji is a really honest character so there isn't much to say beyond that without knowing any specifics. Whoever you're playing with offline can give you a more clear picture of what they're doing and what you can do to deal with it. @Force_of_Nature Is a really solid player, so if that's the Christie/Momiji you're losing to I wouldn't fret about it too much.


Lisa is a pretty solid character that can take you as far as you want if you put your time in and learn what you need to do. Learn other characters if you want but you don't need to if you want to win. I will say that if you are new to the game, Lisa is probably one of the worst possible mains to start with and I say that from experience.
:La Mariposa:
 
#11
Yeah, funny you mentioned him. Force of Nature pretty much is the main DOA guy up here, so he actually is the Christie/Momiji that I have the most trouble with. I haven't posted any video's of myself, however Force of Nature does have alot of footage of me on his channel, I'm the blue Mariposa in pretty much all of them. Also, the canada cup footage has a pretty good example of me getting destroyed by Momiji. Also, I haven't thought about using 66T in neutral, I'll try to apply it now, thanks
 
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Tempest

Well-Known Member
North Carolina
Main Character
Phase 4
#13
Yeah, funny you mentioned him. Force of Nature pretty much is the main DOA guy up here, so he actually is the Christie/Momiji that I have the most trouble with. I haven't posted any video's of myself, however Force of Nature does have alot of footage of me on his channel, I'm the blue Mariposa in pretty much all of them. Also, the canada cup footage has a pretty good example of me getting destroyed by Momiji. Also, I haven't thought about using 66T in neutral, I'll try to apply it now, thanks
Alright I watched the Canada Cup
You did fine. Good job on punishing that 6PK free cancel if that was on purpose.

In general, way too much 4H+K, it's not safe even if it looks like it is, and competent players are going to blow you up for it. Jab is a great panic button because it leaves you + even if they block it. You didn't look very comfortable in stun at all, though that could have just been tournament nerves. Force was killing your offense by stagger escaping, when you practice be sure to set stagger escape to fastest to make sure what your doing works.

Lisa has some great deep stuns like 3p, 4k, 7k that you didn't use at all. You can also go for quick launches with 33k. 66T and 236T are good tools to use against stagger escaping opponents.

In the neutral you're going a bit too hard. Lisa can't really compete well in CQC with characters like Momiji or Helena so you should be trying to keep them out instead of trying to get in. 1H+K6 and 7K6 are great ways to get your opponent to respond at a long range

Against Momiji you weren't punishing her unsafe moves like 33P, 8p, or 2H+K. Mostly though Force was just displaying some solid fundamentals, there really wasn't much character specific stuff you were losing to. Also running H+K is +1 on block so trying to mash after it is a pretty bad idea most of the time.

I didn't see a single neutral throw either, which is a shame because Lisa has a lot of good tick throw setups.
 

Force_of_Nature

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Standard Donor
Toronto, Ontario
Main Character
Ayane
Gamertag
HumbleTitan
PSN ID
Force_of_Nature9
#14
Now you probably won't see it happen at all but :momiji: can also launch from repeating her jab.

HajinShinobi mentioned it in his Stream and I thought it was pretty cool.

Momiji isn't really an in your face type of character so the pressure should be manageable. Its the :christie: matchup thats scary
Any character can "launch" with their jab. It's simply inducing a critical finish to get the launch status.

Great advices @Tempest. When fighting Christie, Helena or Kokoro, you want to keep them out of CQC as much as possible. As soon as they get in, Lisa needs to read correctly, or hope they hang themselves somewhere in order to mount a comeback and win. Funny thing about Momiji is that she can compete with Lisa in the range game compared to the other 3, except Lisa's ranged game is superior. However, Momiji's rushdown is considerably inferior to Christie's, Helena's or Kokoro (though her safety is considerably comparable to Kokoro's). Lisa's ranged game is arguably on the best in all of DOA5LR.
 
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#15
Any character can "launch" with their jab. It's simply inducing a critical finish to get the launch status.
Its especially potent with Momiji because her Jab leads right into ger trusty Tenku Stance, I think only Ayane can pull off a similar setup thats equally satisfying.

I wouldn't do it with any character because their Jab Juggles aren't as good as the Aforementioned Kunoichi.
 

Tempest

Well-Known Member
North Carolina
Main Character
Phase 4
#16
Any character can "launch" with their jab. It's simply inducing a critical finish to get the launch status.

Great advices @Tempest. When fighting Christie, Helena or Kokoro, you want to keep them out of CQC as much as possible. As soon as they get in, Lisa needs to read correctly, or hope they hang themselves somewhere in order to mount a comeback and win. Funny thing about Momiji is that she can compete with Lisa in the range game compared to the other 3, except Lisa's ranged game is superior. However, Momiji's rushdown is considerably inferior to Christie's, Helena's or Kokoro (though her safety is considerably comparable to Kokoro's). Lisa's ranged game is arguably on the best in all of DOA5LR.
I'd argue Momiji's is better, simply because she's got more safety and variety. Lisa has some good options but the majority are non tracking mid kicks. Lisa also has issues confirming long ranged hits whereas Momiji has 66K, 66P etc. Lisa's strengths are a weird combination of a strong mid range neutral, gimmicks, throws and setups. I don't think she really does anything the best, but she definitely has an interesting combination of strengths.

Lisa can do some tricky stuff but Momiji, Ayane, Kokoro have better numbers if that makes sense. Lisa lacks a really solid long ranged punishment tool like Kokoro's 66P or Hitomis 46P. You can use BT4P+k but it's not as reliable as those tools are.
 

Force_of_Nature

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Standard Donor
Toronto, Ontario
Main Character
Ayane
Gamertag
HumbleTitan
PSN ID
Force_of_Nature9
#17
Its especially potent with Momiji because her Jab leads right into ger trusty Tenku Stance, I think only Ayane can pull off a similar setup thats equally satisfying.

I wouldn't do it with any character because their Jab Juggles aren't as good as the Aforementioned Kunoichi.
Ayane can't really do it the same way because her P & BTP are different moves. She'd have to do a weird free cancel to get the same effect.

@Tempest. Hmm... fair enough. I was thinking along the lines of keepout and generally ranged fighting. But yeah, Momiji does have one of the best ranged neutral games in DOA5LR, with lots of safety to boot. Though I find Momiji's general damage output fairly mild without the environment.
 
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Yurlungur

Well-Known Member
Toronto
Main Character
Helena Douglas
#19
For anyone with the helena matchup, i was also trying to learn lisa once upon a time. I'll write some stuff so it can be more helpful.

If helena enters bko( @og23 )4k+h is a really strong tool it will catch her ducking and helena's only punish will be 66k which is - on hit but then again don't be too stupid with it since the second p stuns and helena can transition into bt and bko right after 66k. It's not a bad tool but just because I can't iniate the stun game does not mean you're out of danger. Also if you're completely sure I'm going to enter bko, do her low catch throw just like @Tempest said. I don't have to enter bko from certain strings tho. I can simply just do 33pp instead of 33p4p(flappy hands) so be smart about it.

Helena is very negative on a lot of her strings which is why helena's at higher levels will be constantly free canceling to try to initiate the stun game. What makes the matchup a little more aggrivating for helena is most of her "safe" stuff is -5/-4 which lisa can in fact punish with regular a :P::+::h:. At some point try to ask @Force_of_Nature about grappler frames. So you really need to have your throw punishment down. Rule of thumb, helena's always negative except off of 3 moves(well for lisa that is).
 
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