DOA5LR How to fight typical online Ayane players

[iHajinShinobi]

This is just an excerpt from a thread I posted in some months ago, explaining what to watch out for and how to deal with the same old bland and predictable strategies Ayane players use and abuse online. Folks need to realize they are being hit with fraudulence often, now is the time to stop it. Hope this helps people out, personally I'm tired of seeing sensible players lose to the online fraudulence.

All of it is in the following quote below;

Ayane is a character that greatly excels at mid-range combat as well as CQC (Close Quarters Combat). You need to be aware that Ayane at a distance is more dangerous than an Ayane in your face. Because she has great range pokes and keep away tools in her arsenal, she also boasts in having a nice array of tracking moves (Highs, mids and lows).

I'll give you the general breakdown about how majority of Ayane players play this character.

Up close, the go to moves players will be using are the following;

- PP - Has string followups, HOWEVER, I ALWAYS see players do PP6K2K and SOMETIMES PP6P. 6K2K and PP6K2K right off the bat are very online heavy due to the fact that the game requires 4 frames to crouch, which takes more time to register online due to latency. You are better off side stepping these. Same would apply to 3PK.

- 4P - Amazing hi crush but people toss it out on a whim, just because. In addition, IF YOU BLOCK THIS, you have no reason to respect it. You can low jab her out of it, or, if your character has a very reliable mid that crushes highs (like genfu's 3P or Helena's [3]P), use that and get your stun. Disrespect the hell out of it on block, DO NOT STAND THERE and continue blocking.

- 4K - Very good whiff punisher and as a ground bounce launcher, but that's all it's for. Most players use this as poke up close (which is stupid because it's 16 frames lol) but it's unsafe on block. Throw punish this on block.

- 6P stuff - Most players really don't understand how great her 6P really is, and will almost always opt for 6P free cancel into a BT H+P throw, a 6PP or 6PK and mash out of disadvantage. Throw punish 6PP with a 7 frame throw and throw punish 6PK with a 5 frame throw. There is no guessing involved there on block for either of those two string enders.

- 6K2K - Generally the go to string online, I'd never advise this to be used so much as it's so easy to punish and it has no mix up ON BLOCK. Also, be aware that a lot of online players like to do 6K (and 3P) and free cancel, then follow up with a low throw because they are trying to condition you to block the low. This is very online heavy due to the fact it takes 4 frames to crouch, online it may take longer to register due to latency. So you get low thrown for being honest, which is bad. People REALLY do not know how incredible 6K2K actually is, and don't understand how you can pressure people with it. Take advantage.

- 2H+K - High crush, but she has other high crushes that are so much better than this. It's a low sweep and is slow, and unsafe on block. Low throw punish this if you block it. In addition, in the 1.05 patch the hit advantage on stun is only +17. At fastest stagger it's +11 I believe, no follow ups are guaranteed, especially not launchers. If you do not stagger the best she gets are a high or mid follow up for stun threshold. If you stagger, however, she is still at frame advantage so do not mash. UNLESS Ayane is always trying to throw you. Stagger escape and block and you're golden (well not really since it's online lol). This applies to PP6K2K, 6K2K, 3PK, 33P2K and 2H+K.

- 3PK - Terrible idea up close because 3P is 15 frames, that is not the ideal speed for a mid up close at all. And often times 3PK is being mashed out, low throw punish 3PK if you block it. But be aware that 3P has a mix up with 3PP, 3PK and the free cancel/delay.

3KK6 - 3K is a great poke option and for stun along with it's delayable followup to 3KK, and extremely good for wall slams. However, I've hardly ever seen anyone online use it in this manner. Majority use 3KK6 as a close range poke (again, terrible to do because it's 15 frames) into the roll thinking it's a mix up. It's not a mix up, lol. If you see this and block it and they roll, just do a low jab to interrupt her or your fastest mid strike (you might get counter hit regardless though just because of the latency online).

- P > BT H+P - Ayane's infamous punch grab set up. It's legit, for sure, but majority always opt for this when they use her P cancels and hardly anything else because no one doesn't really know how to condition you with her neutral P cancels. So just be wary of it.

- BT PP6KK4 - Very good blockstring, however, the options majority of Ayane players online tend to use are BT2P or a BT4P, when Ayane has sooooooo many good options from this pressure. Be aware that this is generally always their go to move when closing distance, crouch the high (second kick). Or better yet, just use a low hitting strike, lol. There are several reasons why I always say 66KK4 is not great to rely on getting in with.

- 1P - Good high crush, BUT most online Ayane players use 1P for shenanigans (looking for tick throw set ups mainly). On critical stun or on counter hit, just stagger escape and block. Done.

At a distance, majority of Ayane players use the following;

- 4H+K - This isn't a range poke at all, but players choose to use it as such anyway, especially over 3H+K (which is Ayane's best single poke at range). 4H+K is terrible as a range poke, throw punish this for free if you block it, the distance does not matter as long as you blocked it. You can i12 frame throw this on block because it's -17 on block. Have fun.

- 3PP - Ayane's Bread n Butter range poke, unsafe at -14 on block, 3PP has tracking so you cannot side step this. Throw it on block, or strike punish with i9 to i16 strikes. It'll work up to i17 because it'll take an additional 3-4 frames to turn around and actually block. Learn your damage back turned combos and do it here.

- 66KK4 - This is not a range poke, you can easily high crush this move from it's second strike because it is a high. Almost "everyone" playing this character uses this move terribly because they use it as a range tool when it's not one.

Rolling into BT 6H+K/BT 6H+P -There is no real mix up in this, if you see an Ayane player rolling toward you from a distance with every intention of using either option, blow it up with a fast mid or low strike, especially a good launcher. Please, PLEASE blow this up, lol.

The one primary focus almost (I say almost because those that come to me for help become more aware of how to play this character) every online Ayane player has, is getting critical burst. Making this your primary focus is a very inconsistent way of playing Ayane because taking unnecessary risks to get damage is a very weak and linear way of playing Ayane. Going for her critical burst is fine, but making it your overall game plan is not.

So be aware that majority of online Ayane players will be trying to get critical burst either through a set attack pattern, or throw extremely random and unconstructive hit confirms (the random hit confirms will happen if you hold randomly).

Alot of online Ayane players also like to flip over you after a hard knockdown for shenanigans, and their followups usually lead into a BT6P for a back turn launch on you, or a BT2K low sweep. When you see players going for this setup, don't get up with a wake up, just stand up and block. They will do something, and you can just throw punish them from there.

Also be aware that players will usually turtle against you or "attempt" (HUGE emphasis on attempt) to outspace you well enough for whiff punishment. However, what I've noticed from a lot of online players is that, even though they are turtling, they seem to eventually make a mistake on their own by throwing out something very unsafe or attempting to come toward you through rolling or her BT 3KKK string.

The EASIEST way to break down players like this; run in toward them and block. Either inch your way in doing this or just simply run at them and block. Most players turtle hard but they lack real defense, and if you can run in on the player this way "successfully", then you'll know that they have no idea about how to play a solid keep away game.

This is basically how majority of Ayane players play this character online, sadly.

To add to this, this is not discrimination toward all players playing Ayane online. This is just insight for those who are in need of knowing what's going on, and HOW TO DEAL with it. A lot of this stuff gets blown up offline hard by people who know what to do.

 

[jjinkou2]

Thank for this post.

this:

...
Also be aware that players will usually turtle against you or "attempt" (HUGE emphasis on attempt) to outspace you well enough for whiff punishment. However, what I've noticed from a lot of online players is that, even though they are turtling, they seem to eventually make a mistake on their own by throwing out something very unsafe or attempting to come toward you through rolling or her BT 3KKK string.
...

and the whole post illustrate what @Timasty said in his post
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/learning-from-the-japanese-players.4384/page-3#post-173814

 

[tokiopewpew]

Some old ones from my beginnings, but they still may be some (bad?) example^^
"http://www.freestepdodge.com/media/doa5u-best-of-weird-ayane-part-1.4018/"
"http://www.freestepdodge.com/media/doa5u-best-of-weird-ayane-part-2-2.4019/"

 

[StrikerSashi]

What can I do to get in on an Ayane playing keepaway? What's been working the most is dash up block, but after blocking something, I'm usually still out of range for throws and most strikes. If I try to bait a whiff, I end up getting clipped by her 3H+K or BT critical burst (BT 4H+K?) 'cause they hit so far. Even when I read them, I still don't get any momentum to get in. Her ranged tools pretty much all track, too, so I can't step them. I end up relying on really risky stuff like dash up OH or dash up time a mid crush, which I hate doing. What should my game plan be when Ayane has the life lead?

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Ayane's keepout is....a tricky piece of work. I say this because it can be really medicore, good or really amazing (player dependent).

The EASIEST way to break down players like this; run in toward them and block. Either inch your way in doing this or just simply run at them and block. Most players turtle hard but they lack real defense, and if you can run in on the player this way "successfully", then you'll know that they have no idea about how to play a solid keep away game.

Basically that, and additionally you really have to pay attention to Ayane's placement and your own while on stage. This is my personal tip when I fight an Ayane. I always keep my eye on my opponent's character, but with Ayane, I keep my eye on her and how close she's getting to an environmental hazard or wall. This is usually when I willl move in because a lot of Ayane players actually do not pay any attention to where they are at all.

Also, if they do not have any real good defense, you can pick them apart because a lot of the time they will default to crushing with 4P to get out of a jam, generically. If you block 4P, low jab her out of it. Or you can hold it on instinct if you know the player will default to it so often.

However, when you play an Ayane with very good spacing and defense, you have to be patient when moving forward. Ayane destroys impatience and constant rush down while keeping you out. She has solid keepout at all hit levels and that makes it diffifcult to anticipate strikes (as keepout) with holds and parries. Proper use of her Integrated Movement also makes it really difficult to get in because there's no actual hints that she will feint or follow up with a strike from anything.

You have to ensure you can react well enough whenever she poorly whiffs something (whenever I whiff 3H+K at range, I do it with every intent to control it's hittable area at the right range and to bait people to move) or makes any other bad decisions so you can punish her hard for it.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

What can I do to get in on an Ayane playing keepaway? What's been working the most is dash up block, but after blocking something, I'm usually still out of range for throws and most strikes. If I try to bait a whiff, I end up getting clipped by her 3H+K or BT critical burst (BT 4H+K?) 'cause they hit so far. Even when I read them, I still don't get any momentum to get in. Her ranged tools pretty much all track, too, so I can't step them. I end up relying on really risky stuff like dash up OH or dash up time a mid crush, which I hate doing. What should my game plan be when Ayane has the life lead?

If an Ayane player is playing keepaway, as in solid keepaway with a life lead, you're essentially going to have to do your best to inch in while also keeping an eye on what the Ayane player is doing (i.e. reacting to their move) and acting accordingly. Most of the time you should be hovering just outside 3H+K range before making an attempt to get in. More or less the key to beating Ayane is to get her to defeat her self by punishing any poorly conceived unsafe moves and whiffs.

If the Ayane player is turtling you without a life lead, you're generally not obliged to approach her so you can choose to hang back and have her throw out something unsafe that you can punish. Turtling Ayane is always better than rushing in due to impatience in most instances.

A good rule of thumb I find is to test an Ayane player's defense early on to see if they know how to handle themselves in close when on the defensive along with seeing how they try to keep you out. If their defense sucks ass, rush them down all you want when you get an opening. If you both have roughly the same amount of health, focus on trying to have the Ayane player come to you since that will force them to have to try and be creative with how they approach since quite a bit of her ranged moves are safe (and I'm not sure how many players realize how godly 3H+K is for keepaway). As for 3H+K, if you can anticipate it and can reach, you can try to intercept it since 3H+K is a little slow.

I also agree with Hajin that you need to punish 4P abuse since too many Ayane players mindlessly YOLO with that move. Same with 6PP.

 

[jjinkou2]

is fuzzy guard good against P > BT H+P?

 

[iHajinShinobi]

You can do it, but it's simply guessing when she has fast high and mid striking options as well.

 

[Lulu]

Just came to give a thumbs up and show my support...... I played online once. Wasn't too bad, might do it again..... eventually.
This is good, stomp out FOO strategies nice and quick.

 

[MiSS KEiSHH]

This thread is a godsend lol. Finding it nearly a month later >.< but it truly is. Everything hajin explained is exactly what i see. Sadly that made me fall back with playing ayane because everyone thinks you're doing the same thing as everyone else (if that makes sense). I like to poke but god forbit if i do 6p or any other mid punch it's getting countered almost immediately. I have to learn how to implement some P, PP delays and to be a LOT more patient.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

This thread is a godsend lol. Finding it nearly a month later >.< but it truly is. Everything hajin explained is exactly what i see. Sadly that made me fall back with playing ayane because everyone thinks you're doing the same thing as everyone else (if that makes sense). I like to poke but god forbit if i do 6p or any other mid punch it's getting countered almost immediately. I have to learn how to implement some P, PP delays and to be a LOT more patient.

To help out, utilizing P~44, or pressing P at range then pressing 44 to turn back around is a very handy tactic for setting up your offense around mid-range. 3H+K~44 or 3H+K~BT8P is another poke that's useful for controlling space at range thanks to its safety and the distance it covers. You don't need to focus too much around rushing down opponents with strings or pressing too many buttons, because one of the easiest ways to punish Ayane is to either wait for her to finish a predictable string on block, to whiff punish a poorly placed move with a lot of recovery or simply blocking and punishing her multitude of unsafe moves. To alleviate this, using single pokes like: 5P, 6P, 6K, 2P, 1P, along with some BT'ed pokes like BT5P, BT2P, BT1P, BT6K for instance can chip away at a defensive opponent forcing them to eventually make an action. If you're getting countered often, you'll need to mix up your poking hit levels more. For string delays, you can practice with strings like PP6K2K (primarily utilizing PP6K), PPKK2K, 5KKK, 6K2K, 3PP/3PK, 3KKKK (though you generally don't have to go past 3KK or 3KKK), BT4P+KP, along with some others. These strings all have unsafe enders, but Ayane's delays are particularly strong and can keep a lot of opponents in check. Also P~BT T is godly for putting pressure on an opponent to push buttons after a P~cancel. Good luck!

 

[MiSS KEiSHH]

To help out, utilizing P~44, or pressing P at range then pressing 44 to turn back around is a very handy tactic for setting up your offense around mid-range. 3H+K~44 or 3H+K~BT8P is another poke that's useful for controlling space at range thanks to its safety and the distance it covers. You don't need to focus too much around rushing down opponents with strings or pressing too many buttons, because one of the easiest ways to punish Ayane is to either wait for her to finish a predictable string on block, to whiff punish a poorly placed move with a lot of recovery or simply blocking and punishing her multitude of unsafe moves. To alleviate this, using single pokes like: 5P, 6P, 6K, 2P, 1P, along with some BT'ed pokes like BT5P, BT2P, BT1P, BT6K for instance can chip away at a defensive opponent forcing them to eventually make an action. If you're getting countered often, you'll need to mix up your poking hit levels more. For string delays, you can practice with strings like PP6K2K (primarily utilizing PP6K), PPKK2K, 5KKK, 6K2K, 3PP/3PK, 3KKKK (though you generally don't have to go past 3KK or 3KKK), BT4P+KP, along with some others. These strings all have unsafe enders, but Ayane's delays are particularly strong and can keep a lot of opponents in check. Also P~BT T is godly for putting pressure on an opponent to push buttons after a P~cancel. Good luck!

I've been brushing up on some things in the last few days. 90% of the problem is that I'm still on the 360 (i know I'm late, I'm getting a next gen console next week) and I'm not fighting anyone challenging. Ayane used to be my only main since doa3 so it's hard for me just completely drop her. It's all about adapting and stepping out my comfort zone when it comes to my mixups. You're always helping me when i comment on a thread @Force_of_Nature (: you're the best!

 

[MiSS KEiSHH]

I've been brushing up on some things in the last few days. 90% of the problem is that I'm still on the 360 (i know I'm late, I'm getting a next gen console next week) and I'm not fighting anyone challenging. Ayane used to be my only main since doa3 so it's hard for me just completely drop her. It's all about adapting and stepping out my comfort zone when it comes to my mixups. You're always helping me when i comment on a thread @Force_of_Nature (: you're the best!

And to further add, using 44 is one thing i never tried to use with her. I see veteran ayane players use it all the time and it is an amazing tool when it comes to being safe and keeping your opponent on their toes.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

For Ayane, you have two options for backing away back into neutral;

44 as mentioned, and BT8P which is unique to Ayane. Both accomplish the same goal, just a matter of preference.

 

[MiSS KEiSHH]

For Ayane, you have two options for backing away back into neutral;

44 as mentioned, and BT8P which is unique to Ayane. Both accomplish the same goal, just a matter of preference.

Ahh okay. I don't see many ayane players utilize it that much (maybe because they aren't aware of the technique). I'm going to practice all the tips you guys gave. The funny thing is i was fan girling over your ayane about 2 hours ago while i was watching your replays on your YT channel lol but i appreciate the input and help you gave

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I am flattered, haha.

But yes, it's always good to see more aspiring Ayane players wanting to level up their game. Hoping to see how your progress turns out and you're more than welcome to ask/discuss any concerns here. Force and I will do our to best help out.

As for stuff like 44/BT8P, I consider that pretty much a staple to Ayane's play (and core play) because it sets up so much for her. Baits out an action, forces opponents to respond, etc. Can't react to it either because of the plethora of options Ayane has after a jab on block, for example.

 

[MiSS KEiSHH]

I am flattered, haha.

But yes, it's always good to see more aspiring Ayane players wanting to level up their game. Hoping to see how your progress turns out and you're more than welcome to ask/discuss any concerns here. Force and I will do our to best help out.

As for stuff like 44/BT8P, I consider that pretty much a staple to Ayane's play (and core play) because it sets up so much for her. Baits out an action, forces opponents to respond, etc. Can't react to it either because of the plethora of options Ayane has after a jab on block, for example.

I will. I gotta get some practice in on next gen so i can see where I'm at with her against other people. There were many times where i tried to play her as a rush down like i play kasumi and i never understood why it didn't work. Now i see why. I thought that in order to get damage, you had to be in people's faces all the time. It's all about situations and when the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I will. I gotta get some practice in on next gen so i can see where I'm at with her against other people. There were many times where i tried to play her as a rush down like i play kasumi and i never understood why it didn't work. Now i see why. I thought that in order to get damage, you had to be in people's faces all the time. It's all about situations and when the opportunity presents itself.

Yeah, Kasumi's much better at getting rewarded for being in people's faces than Ayane is. Instead, try to set up whiff punishes with 3PP & 4K. A slight hint, P~44 & 3H+K~44 generally set up enough space for an opponent to over extend themselves, positioning themselves for a 4K whiff punish. If they don't overextend their reach, you're reasonably safe anyway since 5P & 3H+K's recoveries are short, and can attempt your next course of action. The Risk/Reward is in your favour when you can space your moves well at range.

 

[UncleKitchener]

is fuzzy guard good against P > BT H+P?

No, because she also has a BT low throw and they're both the same speed. Only a handful of characters are like that with such straight up nitaku (Ayane, Bass and Brad), so it's better to hold or strike out.

 

[MiSS KEiSHH]

Yeah, Kasumi's much better at getting rewarded for being in people's faces than Ayane is. Instead, try to set up whiff punishes with 3PP & 4K. A slight hint, P~44 & 3H+K~44 generally set up enough space for an opponent to over extend themselves, positioning themselves for a 4K whiff punish. If they don't overextend their reach, you're reasonably safe anyway since 5P & 3H+K's recoveries are short, and can attempt your next course of action. The Risk/Reward is in your favour when you can space your moves well at range.

Now when you say doing 3H+K and being rewarded with a 4K whiff punish, do you mean bouncing them up for a quick juggle or a force tech? And in terms of a whiff punish, would that be a free grab on your part?