Nikotsumi
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I forgot about his OHs, I've already edited the post xD
Characters "....I cannot let you pass!" Naotora Ii for beginners Guide|LR Ver.
- Thread starter KasumiLover
- Start date
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
vs. Matchup rating: 2-2
Matchup difficulty: MEDIUM (arguably HARD if the Naotora player isn't familiar with Jacky's frame traps, explanation below)
Overall, I'd say this is a pretty balanced matchup. Jacky has a really elaborate kit compared to Naotora with more options, which makes him harder to master. Jacky requires timely execution and fast fingers, whereas Naotora on the other hand relies more on playing mindgames, whiff punishing and hold baiting by free cancelling her strings so she can get some nasty throw damage off. Jacky has access to a lot of frame traps (examples being P and 2P+K) which leave him at +1 frame advantage. This makes it hard for Naotora to escape from his pressure. Fortunately though, most of Jacky's frame traps are highs and do not track, so Naotora can high crush him by using 2P or 2H+K or she can simply sidestep him. SS P is wonderful as Jacky is pretty linear which leads SS P to counter hitting and giving a great stun.
Jacky definitely has the advantage up close. His speed is 10-12-12 which is better than Naotora at all hit levels. Naotora has to respect his 10f jab in neutral which forces her to be defensive at R1F and neutral up close. However, Naotora also has to be cautious and not be frame trapped. Blocking Jacky's P leaves Naotora at -1 advantage which can lead to endless frame trap loops. It is therefore recommended to crush Jacky if Naotora has the opportunity to avoid these frame trap loops. Moreover, Naotora has to be wary of Jacky's 12f low jab, which is also safe on block. Jacky can use 2P to crush Naotora for days so in this matchup I'd say Naotora should resort to mids to get her stun game going. Naotora shouldn't over-rely on punches as well (not as if she was going to do that in the first place
) as Jacky has sabaki's which counter these punches. One of them is a neutral sabaki which catches all high punches and the other is 44P+K which catches all mid punches. Fortunately for Naotora she doesn't use punches often, so Jacky's sabaki's shouldn't come into play that much.Naotora, like in the other two matchups I have written so far, has the advantage at anything beyond R1F. At range she can easily use long-reaching kicks like K, 6K, 3K, 9K, 4H+K and 6H+K to over-prioritize Jacky's ranged tools. Naotora has to be especially aware of Jacky's 3H+K, which reaches very far, tracks, is safe on block and gives a knockdown. Jacky is predictable in closing the gap and does so with a mid kick (66K, 3K, 4H+K, 66H+K) or a mid punch (1P+K, 6P, 8P) in most cases. Be wary that most of Jacky's gap closers are safe on block and they do not track!
Both characters have very similar throw damage. Their 12f throws have the exact same damage values but Naotora's 12f throw has environmental interaction potential. Throw speed is the same as well which doesn't bias one character to have better punishment options. Holds for both characters are also really average, not much to say about that. Wall game and environmental game are on the same level for both.
Summary:
- Similarities: Holds, throws, and environmental game. both characters play very differently and require a different mindset to play them effectively so I wouldn't say there are any other similarities besides holds, throws and environmental game.
- Advantages for Jacky: Frame traps to start pressure, CQC, strike speed, more options than Naotora thanks to elaborate moveset, sabaki's.
- Advantages for Naotora: Crushes, ranged game, easy to punish Jacky by sidestepping his linear strings with SS P which sets up dangerous combos.
Dark-truth
Well-Known Member
OMG this is amazing !!!, can you make a thread about this ? With all the charactersSo here's my personal opinion on Naotora's matchups versus Rig. I might do the others I listed tomorrow or another day. I'll go by your format in which 1-3 equals Naotora's disfavor, 2-2 an even matchup and 3-1 Naotora's favor. I'll also state my opinion matchup difficulty, which ranges from: Very easy - Easy - Medium - Hard - Very hard.
Matchup rating: 2-2
Matchup difficulty: MEDIUM
Explanation: Naotora and Rig have a very similar playstyle. They both rely on high strikes in both the neutral game and the stun game to presure their opponents. Next to that, they are both very kick-oriented and have a limited amount of punches. However, the punches they have are actually really good. Both have an amazing 4P, 3P and 8P which lead to very deep stuns. Both also have very high combo damage and great zoning tools. However, since their playstyle revolves mainly around high kicks, they are vulnerabe to high crushes. They also have a similar strike speed in general.
As for the differences, I'll start what Rig has what Naotora doesn't. Rig, in general, is much safer to play than Naotora. Most of his punch strings are safe and his high kicks, like the standard K, even leave him at +1 frame advantage. What's more, Rig has a plethora of kick and punch sit-down stuns which lead to guaranteed setups. 7P is -5 on block and gives Rig a guaranteed 33K launcher! Naotora doesn't really have a lot of guaranteed set-ups compared to Rig. Rig also has two stances which are in general way better than Naotora's Ii Clan stance. It has so many options including safe tracking moves, tricky lows, a safe mid punch, a chargeable mid kick and even a reset throw. Rig has a i12 mid kick which he can use as a counter poke against Naotora's pressure. Mix-ups wise Rig is really dynamic, compared to Naotora who has relatively predictable strings. Last but not least, Rig's environmental game is among the best in the game. There are few characters which have a better environmental game than Rig and Naotora is not one of those characters. For example, Rig has four possible ways to set up a guaranteed Critical Burst by just making good use of the environment.
Naotora however has the tools to deal with some of Rig's trickery. Her 6K is great at range and will beat most of other Rig's spacing tools aside from maybe Rig's 66P. Naotora's 9K and 236K close the gap quickly and have high priority, although they are somewhat risky to use. The important part however is that these two moves can deal very well with Rig at longer ranges. Naotora has a way better neutral kick at 11i which beats almost all of Rig's options. I also believe Naotora's pressure is better in general, especially at the wall. Rig can't sustain his pressure in Bending Stance because a simple 2H+K or 2P of Naotora can effectively shut down all of his options. Naotora's combo damage is probably slightly higher than Rig's as well. Furthermore, Naotora's holds and throws are way better than Rig's. Naotora's 66T does 99 damage on Hi-Counter which is an insane amount of damage, and this is excluding environmental interactions! Rig's throws on the other hand are sub-par and lacking in damage, with the exception of his 41236T which sets up for some nasty follow-ups. Naotora's holds are pretty average but they are way better than Rig's holds, which are probably one of the worst damaging in the game. Rig's low strikes also aren't as good as Naotora's low strikes.
Summary:
- Similarities: Kick-oriented, pressure-based, limited but decent punches, great zoning tools, vulnerable to crushes, similar strike speed in general.
- Rig's advantages: Safer, more and better guaranteed setups, better stances, better mix-ups, 12i mid kick as counterpoke, better environmental game.
- Naotora's advantages: Great spacing tools to deal with Rig at range, 11i high kick to start pressure, better at maintaining pressure than Rig, slightly higher combo damage, better throws, better holds, better low strikes.
Ikr? He's really good at breaking down a MU and showing what each character can do, I love it! :-D And thank you Jaimy for finishing it, I'll put it in as soon as I can! So far, I have Ein and Rig in, and MR and Jacky will go in next!☆ Oh and remind me a little while later if I forget to touch up on Kasumi and Nyo's MU, I have to add environmental and hold information so that they can have all the works like your MU explanations have had.
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KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
vs. Matchup rating: 1-3
Matchup difficulty: VERY HARD
The matchup Naotora vs. Momiji is a very lopsided one and possibly the hardest matchup for Naotora after perhaps Helena and Leifang. They both have a limited moveset, but Momiji clearly has the advantage. Allow me to explain why.
First off, let's take a look at the neutral strike speed of both characters. Naotora rolls with 11-12-14 whereas Momiji goes with 10-12-12. We can already see that Momiji naturally has a better neutral speed allowing her to be more offensive than Naotora. At R1F she can initiate and possibly get the first stun in if the Naotora player decides to strike. Momiji's P is -2 on block and beats out every other strike of Naotora. Momiji's 2P has amazing reach for a low punch and shuts down one of Naotora's main initiation tools: Her 11i K. Momiji's 12i 6P reaches further than Naotora's 12i 4K and gives a much deeper stun. In conclusion, Momiji wins at all hit levels (high, mid and low) in neutral.
Let's now move on to the safety of both characters. It is obvious that Momiji is much safer than Naotora, both in close range as well at long range. Momiji's P, KK, H+K, 44K, 66P, 2P, 9K, 7K, PP6P and 6P+K are all excellent initiators which are at the very least semi-safe on block. Meanwhile, Naotora struggles opening up an opponent without being unsafe. At the same time Naotora is much slower than Momiji in finding a way to get a stun.
Naotora's stun game however, is more rewarding than Momiji's. Consider Naotora as a high risk - high reward character and Momiji as a low risk - medium reward character. Naotora's stuns are pretty deep with 3P possibly being one of the best stuns she has. Naotora can get higher combo damage off than Momiji if she manages to launch an opponent. Momiji on the other hand, benefits more from a stun-launch game as trying to get a deep stun with Momiji doesn't grant her much advantage compared to Naotora.
Naotora isn't as dominant at long range when facing a Momiji. In fact, both characters have a very good ranged game but Momiji is way safer than Naotora in approaching and creating a gap. Momiji for example, has 44K which is a long reaching kick which is safe on block. Its purpose is mainly to get the opponent off of you and to create a gap. It is also an excellent tool for whiff punishing wake-up kicks. Momiji has 66P which is a perfectly viable approaching tool, and her 4K and H+K have high priority. All of these moves are safe on block. Naotora has really good whiff punishers as well such as 6K, 9K and 4H+K but these are extremely risky to use because they are so unsafe. Momiji's lows also reach further than Naotora's. For example, Momiji's 2H+K is a tracking unsafe low sweep but it unpunishable at tip range.
Moreover, Momiji has very good tools to deal with Naotora's strike pressure. She has 5 (!) 12i strikes which can all interrupt Naotora during her strings. These are: 6P, 2P, K, 7K and H+K. A well-timed 3P can crush all of Naotora's dreams as well. Momiji has excellent tracking such as 3P4PP, 4P, 1P and H+K to deal with Naotora's awesome SS P. 8P and 8K can also be used to counter-poke Naotora, although these options are unsafe on block.
Comparing throws and holds, they aren't that different. Their speed and damage output is very similar. Momiji has an expert mid punch hold which shouldn't happen that often against a Naotora player. Both characters' 7i throws and 12i throws are comparable in terms of damage output. So in the throw and hold department I'd say neither character has the advantage. Their environmental interaction potential is basically on the same level too.
Summary:
- Similarties: Limited moveset, great ranged game and whiff punishment options, throws and holds, environmental interaction potential.
- Advantages for Momiji: Speed, safety, better neutral game, slightly better range, counter-pokes against Naotora's pressure, crushes to deal with Naotora's pressure, tracking, annoying 2P.
- Advantages for Naotora: Better reward (i.e. higher damage output), more potent stun game.
Solid analysis! Very hard MU...I'm gonna have to be wary whenever we get to play each other again (0_0) I really like insights, I can literally reread them and not lose interest, they're so solid!
Matchup rating: 1-3
Matchup difficulty: VERY HARD
The matchup Naotora vs. Momiji is a very lopsided one and possibly the hardest matchup for Naotora after perhaps Helena and Leifang. They both have a limited moveset, but Momiji clearly has the advantage. Allow me to explain why.
First off, let's take a look at the neutral strike speed of both characters. Naotora rolls with 11-12-14 whereas Momiji goes with 10-12-12. We can already see that Momiji naturally has a better neutral speed allowing her to be more offensive than Naotora. At R1F she can initiate and possibly get the first stun in if the Naotora player decides to strike. Momiji's P is -2 on block and beats out every other strike of Naotora. Momiji's 2P has amazing reach for a low punch and shuts down one of Naotora's main initiation tools: Her 11i K. Momiji's 12i 6P reaches further than Naotora's 12i 4K and gives a much deeper stun. In conclusion, Momiji wins at all hit levels (high, mid and low) in neutral.
Let's now move on to the safety of both characters. It is obvious that Momiji is much safer than Naotora, both in close range as well at long range. Momiji's P, KK, H+K, 44K, 66P, 2P, 9K, 7K, PP6P and 6P+K are all excellent initiators which are at the very least semi-safe on block. Meanwhile, Naotora struggles opening up an opponent without being unsafe. At the same time Naotora is much slower than Momiji in finding a way to get a stun.
Naotora's stun game however, is more rewarding than Momiji's. Consider Naotora as a high risk - high reward character and Momiji as a low risk - medium reward character. Naotora's stuns are pretty deep with 3P possibly being one of the best stuns she has. Naotora can get higher combo damage off than Momiji if she manages to launch an opponent. Momiji on the other hand, benefits more from a stun-launch game as trying to get a deep stun with Momiji doesn't grant her much advantage compared to Naotora.
Naotora isn't as dominant at long range when facing a Momiji. In fact, both characters have a very good ranged game but Momiji is way safer than Naotora in approaching and creating a gap. Momiji for example, has 44K which is a long reaching kick which is safe on block. Its purpose is mainly to get the opponent off of you and to create a gap. It is also an excellent tool for whiff punishing wake-up kicks. Momiji has 66P which is a perfectly viable approaching tool, and her 4K and H+K have high priority. All of these moves are safe on block. Naotora has really good whiff punishers as well such as 6K, 9K and 4H+K but these are extremely risky to use because they are so unsafe. Momiji's lows also reach further than Naotora's. For example, Momiji's 2H+K is a tracking unsafe low sweep but it unpunishable at tip range.
Moreover, Momiji has very good tools to deal with Naotora's strike pressure. She has 5 (!) 12i strikes which can all interrupt Naotora during her strings. These are: 6P, 2P, K, 7K and H+K. A well-timed 3P can crush all of Naotora's dreams as well. Momiji has excellent tracking such as 3P4PP, 4P, 1P and H+K to deal with Naotora's awesome SS P. 8P and 8K can also be used to counter-poke Naotora, although these options are unsafe on block.
Comparing throws and holds, they aren't that different. Their speed and damage output is very similar. Momiji has an expert mid punch hold which shouldn't happen that often against a Naotora player. Both characters' 7i throws and 12i throws are comparable in terms of damage output. So in the throw and hold department I'd say neither character has the advantage. Their environmental interaction potential is basically on the same level too.
Summary:
- Similarties: Limited moveset, great ranged game and whiff punishment options, throws and holds, environmental interaction potential.
- Advantages for Momiji: Speed, safety, better neutral game, slightly better range, counter-pokes against Naotora's pressure, crushes to deal with Naotora's pressure, tracking, annoying 2P.
- Advantages for Naotora: Better reward (i.e. higher damage output), more potent stun game.
RenderingStar
Well-Known Member
Marie actually has set ups that can make her flower wheel guaranteed if you end the combo with standing K her recovery is fast enough to make flower wheel K non staggerable
Nikotsumi
Well-Known Member
You're right, I meant it with her "standard" wall combo enders, such as PP6PK or PP6KK, I should have specified it >_>
Flower Wheel K can be guaranteed even with PK, 3K, 9KK, BT KK or BT KKK as combo enders cause of their fast recovery.
Edit : Actually she has lots of move with fast recovery, so I don't know why I didn't think about it before, that CB is totally guaranteed, good for her xD
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Nikotsumi
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but.... I have to double-post! D:
There's a first time to everything I guess [?]
vs
Match rating : 2-2 (I'm kinda incertain though, I think it may even be a 1-3 in Honoka's favor)
Similarities :
-Both have a good stun-launch game.
-Both have good wall games.
-Both have super weak holds.
-Both have good stuns, though Honoka's are better.
-Both are considered "unsafe", though Honoka is safer.
-Both have a pretty linear moveset.
-Both have almost no guaranteed options (without counting slip stuns). Naotora has that guaranteed CB after 6KKK8K and Honoka, like Rig, has a guaranteed 33K launcher after Dokuritsu-Ho P.
Close range : Well... here the advantage goes definitely to Honoka. She has better speed 9i/11i/13i against Nao's 11i/12i/14i, Naotora can only beat Honoka's mid jab where her high K, since its damage is higher but in neautral Honoka can just do 4P+K to crush both Naotora's fastest high and mid (K and 4K) and get a decent juggle out of it. Honoka has also an extremely good mix up game, and Naotora non-existent evasiveness and weak holds do not help her either, the only way for Naotora to get her offence is to block and wait for an opening or try back dashing in order for Honoka to whiff since her fastest move have poor range. Another way for Naotora to get her offence start is to side step, since Honoka's moveset is pretty linear, though Naotora has this issue as well.
Long range : On the other hand, Naotora has the advantage in long range, cause you know, Honoka has only few long range moves, and they're pretty bad too, though she has a good walking speed and "avarage" mid range/whiff punish moves, so Naotora has always to be careful when approaching her, however her "zoning" tools are obviously better and she should be fine as long as she's not near Honoka, she should always create space between them when she has the possibility.
Throws : They both have avarage damaging throws, though Honoka's are slightly better cause she has a wall variation of almost every throw, as well as that good punish throw (6T) that grants her +8 frames, and give even more Naotora more troubles as she's slower. Both do not have offensive holds (OHs).
Edit : I forgot to mention that Honoka has Hissatsu no Kamae throws as well, that really do a lot more damage than her "normal" throws.
Holds : Both characters' holds deal poor damage and do not have access to advanced holds.
Environment : Both can take advage of walls and can do a lot of damage with stages special dangerzones, though Honoka's wall pressure is amazing and she gets a guaranteed CB from a breakable object.
So Honoka's pros are : Better speed, better mix ups, better wall pressure, better environment game, better stun game, better throws.
Her cons : Lack of range, linear moveset, weak holds.
Naotora's pros are : Better range game.
Her cons are : Weak holds, linear moveset, not fast enough.
@KasumiLover69 I think it's better to wait for Jaimy's break down on this match up, cause I may have got some things wrong or even missed them.
There's a first time to everything I guess [?]
vs Match rating : 2-2 (I'm kinda incertain though, I think it may even be a 1-3 in Honoka's favor)
Similarities :
-Both have a good stun-launch game.
-Both have good wall games.
-Both have super weak holds.
-Both have good stuns, though Honoka's are better.
-Both are considered "unsafe", though Honoka is safer.
-Both have a pretty linear moveset.
-Both have almost no guaranteed options (without counting slip stuns). Naotora has that guaranteed CB after 6KKK8K and Honoka, like Rig, has a guaranteed 33K launcher after Dokuritsu-Ho P.
Close range : Well... here the advantage goes definitely to Honoka. She has better speed 9i/11i/13i against Nao's 11i/12i/14i, Naotora can only beat Honoka's mid jab where her high K, since its damage is higher but in neautral Honoka can just do 4P+K to crush both Naotora's fastest high and mid (K and 4K) and get a decent juggle out of it. Honoka has also an extremely good mix up game, and Naotora non-existent evasiveness and weak holds do not help her either, the only way for Naotora to get her offence is to block and wait for an opening or try back dashing in order for Honoka to whiff since her fastest move have poor range. Another way for Naotora to get her offence start is to side step, since Honoka's moveset is pretty linear, though Naotora has this issue as well.
Long range : On the other hand, Naotora has the advantage in long range, cause you know, Honoka has only few long range moves, and they're pretty bad too, though she has a good walking speed and "avarage" mid range/whiff punish moves, so Naotora has always to be careful when approaching her, however her "zoning" tools are obviously better and she should be fine as long as she's not near Honoka, she should always create space between them when she has the possibility.
Throws : They both have avarage damaging throws, though Honoka's are slightly better cause she has a wall variation of almost every throw, as well as that good punish throw (6T) that grants her +8 frames, and give even more Naotora more troubles as she's slower. Both do not have offensive holds (OHs).
Edit : I forgot to mention that Honoka has Hissatsu no Kamae throws as well, that really do a lot more damage than her "normal" throws.
Holds : Both characters' holds deal poor damage and do not have access to advanced holds.
Environment : Both can take advage of walls and can do a lot of damage with stages special dangerzones, though Honoka's wall pressure is amazing and she gets a guaranteed CB from a breakable object.
So Honoka's pros are : Better speed, better mix ups, better wall pressure, better environment game, better stun game, better throws.
Her cons : Lack of range, linear moveset, weak holds.
Naotora's pros are : Better range game.
Her cons are : Weak holds, linear moveset, not fast enough.
@KasumiLover69 I think it's better to wait for Jaimy's break down on this match up, cause I may have got some things wrong or even missed them.
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Gotcha! Nice breakdown, very thoroughly doneI'm sorry but.... I have to double-post! D:
There's a first time to everything I guess [?]
Match rating : 2-2 (I'm kinda incertain though, I think it may even be a 2-3 in Honoka's favor)
Similarities :
-Both have a good stun-launch game.
-Both have good wall games.
-Both have super weak holds.
-Both have good stuns, though Honoka's are better.
-Both are considered "unsafe", though Honoka is safer.
-Both have a pretty linear moveset.
-Both have almost no guaranteed options (without counting slip stuns). Naotora has that guaranteed CB after 6KKK8K and Honoka, like Rig, has a guaranteed 33K launcher after Dokuritsu-Ho P.
Close range : Well... here the advantage goes definitely to Honoka. She has better speed 9i/11i/13i against Nao's 11i/12i/14i, Naotora can only beat Honoka's mid jab where her high K, since its damage is higher but in neautral Honoka can just do 4P+K to crush both Naotora's fastest high and mid (K and 4K) and get a decent juggle out of it. Honoka has also an extremely good mix up game, and Naotora non-existent evasiveness and weak holds do not help her either, the only way for Naotora to get her offence is to block and wait for an opening or try back dashing in order for Honoka to whiff since her fastest move have poor range. Another way for Naotora to get her offence start is to side step, since Honoka's moveset is pretty linear, though Naotora has this issue as well.
Long range : On the other hand, Naotora has the advantage in long range, cause you know, Honoka has only few long range moves, and they're pretty bad too, though she has a good walking speed and "avarage" mid range/whiff punish moves, so Naotora has always to be careful when approaching her, however her "zoning" tools are obviously better and she should be fine as long as she's not near Honoka, she should always create space between them when she has the possibility.
Throws : They both have avarage damaging throws, though Honoka's are slightly better cause she has a wall variation of almost every throw, as well as that good punish throw (6T) that grants her +8 frames, and give even more Naotora more troubles as she's slower. Both do not have offensive holds (OHs).
Holds : Both characters' holds deal poor damage and do not have access to advanced holds.
Environment : Both can take advage of walls and can do a lot of damage with stages special dangerzones, though Honoka's wall pressure is amazing and she gets a guaranteed CB from a breakable object.
So Honoka's pros are : Better speed, better mix ups, better wall pressure, better environment game, better stun game.
Her cons : Lack of range, linear moveset, weak holds.
Naotora's pros are : Better range game.
Her cons are : Weak holds, linear moveset, not fast enough.
@KasumiLover69 I think it's better to wait for Jaimy's break down on this match up, cause I may have got some things wrongs or even missed them.
Yeah, we can wait for Jaimy if you want,, so that he can add his insight in too. When that's done, I'll copy the summary in and then slightly revise is to make it sound similar to the other MUs we've collected if that's OK with you?
Nikotsumi
Well-Known Member
Sure, you do not even need to ask xDGotcha! Nice breakdown, very thoroughly done
RenderingStar
Well-Known Member
I'm not good at typing the MU it's easier for me to actually Say it but I'll attempt to type it it
YBNDM
Well-Known Member
This makes me happy.