DOA5LR Lisa wishlist/changes

synce

Well-Known Member
Main Character
Tengu
#1
I know Lisa is pretty much perfect now, but did anyone notice anything from all the recent streams? IIRC her 1K is unchanged from the current version, which is disappointing but I guess it's okay as long as they didn't nerf anything

Okay actually I'd like the old 1P back too ;)
 
#3
I have big hunch not much will change, at the moment she still has her crutches, the fact she almost always has to land a CH to apply pressure is pretty detrimental in the current meta game because her low game is awful, she HAS to rely on throw punishment which requires her to have knowledge of every characters unsafety. It's this reason alone why not just her but the majority of grappler based characters are considered Low-Mid to Low Tier, they aren't as easy to master as say Christie, who has phenomenal speed and mix-up potential and easily accessible strings, players don't need to invest in throw punishment with characters like these, which is crippling in competitive play as it makes them very pick up and play friendly. Not saying a character like Lisa is bad but she requires vast knowledge of not just her physics but her every match-up with every character so she can use her throw punishment which is one of the cornerstones of her gameplay!

A character like Lisa who is extremely lacking in the mix-up department will often times find openings by using crushes to land a CH, from here she has a plethora of high damage opportunities, can land CB with relatively low effort and of course use her famous shenanigan techniques. Against a turtler she is almost helpless and must rely on her footsie tools to get in. Up close when she gains advantage vs a block whore she must take risks with throws or offensive holds which are extremely risky.

If :1::K: is not being changed or if she doesn't get a decent low to initiate pressure (It just needs to offer + frames on hit not exactly setup for comboing) she instead needs a strong ranged guard crush so she can setup for offensive holds or throws safely or things like :6::6::P: which has fantastic mid and low follow-ups, it would be a watch out for move, something that compliments her ranged style of game-play, allows her to engage without too much risk but offers just enough advantage so she can gain the upper hand. Lisa should be deadly when you give her space and she should struggle in close and be forced to defend and throw punish accordingly. The perfect move would be to give :236::P: + frames on block (+5/6 would be amazing! Enough so she can OH against mids and crush against highs), it's also steppable so it wouldn't be overpowered.

And yes old :1::P: pls! ^-^
 

Tempest

Well-Known Member
North Carolina
Main Character
Phase 4
#4
I have big hunch not much will change, at the moment she still has her crutches, the fact she almost always has to land a CH to apply pressure is pretty detrimental in the current meta game because her low game is awful, she HAS to rely on throw punishment which requires her to have knowledge of every characters unsafety. It's this reason alone why not just her but the majority of grappler based characters are considered Low-Mid to Low Tier, they aren't as easy to master as say Christie, who has phenomenal speed and mix-up potential and easily accessible strings, players don't need to invest in throw punishment with characters like these, which is crippling in competitive play as it makes them very pick up and play friendly. Not saying a character like Lisa is bad but she requires vast knowledge of not just her physics but her every match-up with every character so she can use her throw punishment which is one of the cornerstones of her gameplay!

A character like Lisa who is extremely lacking in the mix-up department will often times find openings by using crushes to land a CH, from here she has a plethora of high damage opportunities, can land CB with relatively low effort and of course use her famous shenanigan techniques. Against a turtler she is almost helpless and must rely on her footsie tools to get in. Up close when she gains advantage vs a block whore she must take risks with throws or offensive holds which are extremely risky.

If :1::K: is not being changed or if she doesn't get a decent low to initiate pressure (It just needs to offer + frames on hit not exactly setup for comboing) she instead needs a strong ranged guard crush so she can setup for offensive holds or throws safely or things like :6::6::P: which has fantastic mid and low follow-ups, it would be a watch out for move, something that compliments her ranged style of game-play, allows her to engage without too much risk but offers just enough advantage so she can gain the upper hand. Lisa should be deadly when you give her space and she should struggle in close and be forced to defend and throw punish accordingly. The perfect move would be to give :236::P: + frames on block (+5/6 would be amazing! Enough so she can OH against mids and crush against highs), it's also steppable so it wouldn't be overpowered.

And yes old :1::P: pls! ^-^
I agree that she would appreciate a good low outside of BT2P but I disagree with her being "helpless" against a turtler. I think like you said Lisa is just harder to use because the majority of her tools are unsafe and you have to carefully condition your opponent. Even a patient player is going to start hitting buttons when you start doing :7::K::6: in their face and mixing :pause::P: and :pause::P::P::4:

Giving her :236::P: + frames would be completely ridiculous considering its range, speed and active frames. Even making that move -3 or similar would be ridiculous. It's supposed to be a whiff punishing tool not something you can just throw out. Lisa already has 2 ranged guard breaks that can open people up with the right timing, and that change would essentially make both of those moves redundant.

Things I'd like for Lisa would be one of her offensive holds having a variant that does more damage near a wall, a ground throw, more BT transitions (one that leaves her a little + would be nice). Oh and if :3::K: could have its hitbox fixed I'd appreciate it.
 

Gruff757

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Portsmouth, Virginia
Main Character
Lisa
Gamertag
Gruff757
PSN ID
Gruff757
#5
I agree that she would appreciate a good low outside of BT2P but I disagree with her being "helpless" against a turtler. I think like you said Lisa is just harder to use because the majority of her tools are unsafe and you have to carefully condition your opponent. Even a patient player is going to start hitting buttons when you start doing :7::K::6: in their face and mixing :pause::P: and :pause::P::P::4:

Giving her :236::P: + frames would be completely ridiculous considering its range, speed and active frames. Even making that move -3 or similar would be ridiculous. It's supposed to be a whiff punishing tool not something you can just throw out. Lisa already has 2 ranged guard breaks that can open people up with the right timing, and that change would essentially make both of those moves redundant.

Things I'd like for Lisa would be one of her offensive holds having a variant that does more damage near a wall, a ground throw, more BT transitions (one that leaves her a little + would be nice). Oh and if :3::K: could have its hitbox fixed I'd appreciate it.
66T Has a wall variant

I agree with 236P being plus would be ridiculous.

Would love a ground throw of some sort

9kp4(yeah I know) and 9pp4(I know, I know) have + frames on their bt transitions, along with BT P+K4
 

synce

Well-Known Member
Main Character
Tengu
#8
Official changelog:
http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/doa5/ultimate/arcade/information/info_20150205.html


3K,PKK,K6K,6PK,2KK tracking removed
1KK, BT K2KK changed to crumple stun on NH and higher
8T command priority adjusted
BT T, BT 6T new voice
Rope T damage increased from 40 to 60

Looks like it's all buffs and fixes except for the 3K tracking nerf, which honestly I don't care for since: 1) the hitbox on that move was awful to begin with, and 2) no one knows how to sidestep
 

akhi216

Active Member
Standard Donor
PSN ID
akhi216
#14
I thought that was the best tracking move to keep Christies and Baymans in check.
It was. Now there's only Lisa's slowish 3T offensive hold for crybabies to whine about throw spamming more (nevermind that Lisa is a wrestler/DOA-grappler-class).

That said it would be nice if Lisa could have a BT low throw. I mean if Brad Wong can have a lying down low offensive hold then Lisa could at least get one BT low throw even if it isn't an OH.
 
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#15
Giving her :236::P: + frames would be completely ridiculous considering its range, speed and active frames. Even making that move -3 or similar would be ridiculous. It's supposed to be a whiff punishing tool not something you can just throw out. Lisa already has 2 ranged guard breaks that can open people up with the right timing, and that change would essentially make both of those moves redundant.
Do you think so? In it's current state yes it would be, but the move needs to change regardless, the biggest issue that lies within :236::P: is that it registers as a GB but the fact it's so highly punishable makes it a ridulous risk to take as a whiff punishing tool, almost every character can launch punish it and the remainder can simply throw punish it, the reward you get for landing it on CH isn't comparable to other whiff punishers in the game (45 dmg on CH, a recoverable knockdown and if you land it as a wall hit you can't follow-up after because of it's recovery), it's hitbox is also highly bugged and will whiff the majority of the time if the opponent is not front facing, again crippling it's ability as a whiff punisher. The move deserves to be safe (atleast -4) because of those reasons. I know we have :P::+::K: which is +5 on block but it's not suitable to close distances at a 28 frame start-up, don't see why you would use that move outside of launching anyway she doesn't need the + frames on that move. BT :P::+::K: on the other hand is not easily accessible and shockingly slow to setup outside of oki with :9::K: and another move which has an unreliable hitbox . When you have characters like Tina where all of their GB moves are safe, I don't think it will be criminal to give :236::P: some love. Reduce the active frames because she doesn't need them and increase the start-up so players can react better to it by way of SS, :4::h: or whatever means they choose.

As for her changes, they're nothing crazy. I think it's safe to say nobody cares about her rope :H+P: buff, lack of tracking on :3::K: series isn't a huge loss but :6::P::K::4: loses it's reliability as a safe, ranged poke string now which was something I used a lot. :1::K::K: giving crumple stun on NH is great news and essentially changes it to what it already does on CH, but as it's hold escapable (you cannot throw punish if it's held as well because of :1::K::K:'s super long recovery, setting critical hold to fastest also grants the opponent +1) and :1::K::K::P: is a high she cannot combo afterwards and the only reliable mixup you have is :1::K::K: and :1::K::2::K: since :1::K::2::K: track whereas :1::K::K: does not. Not sure what the :8::h::+::P: buff means but I guess it's a positive.
 
Likes: akhi216

Gruff757

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Portsmouth, Virginia
Main Character
Lisa
Gamertag
Gruff757
PSN ID
Gruff757
#16
Do you think so? In it's current state yes it would be, but the move needs to change regardless, the biggest issue that lies within :236::P: is that it registers as a GB but the fact it's so highly punishable makes it a ridulous risk to take as a whiff punishing tool, almost every character can launch punish it and the remainder can simply throw punish it, the reward you get for landing it on CH isn't comparable to other whiff punishers in the game (45 dmg on CH, a recoverable knockdown and if you land it as a wall hit you can't follow-up after because of it's recovery), it's hitbox is also highly bugged and will whiff the majority of the time if the opponent is not front facing, again crippling it's ability as a whiff punisher. The move deserves to be safe (atleast -4) because of those reasons. I know we have :P::+::K: which is +5 on block but it's not suitable to close distances at a 28 frame start-up, don't see why you would use that move outside of launching anyway she doesn't need the + frames on that move. BT :P::+::K: on the other hand is not easily accessible and shockingly slow to setup outside of oki with :9::K: and another move which has an unreliable hitbox . When you have characters like Tina where all of their GB moves are safe, I don't think it will be criminal to give :236::P: some love. Reduce the active frames because she doesn't need them and increase the start-up so players can react better to it by way of SS, :4::h: or whatever means they choose.

As for her changes, they're nothing crazy. I think it's safe to say nobody cares about her rope :H+P: buff, lack of tracking on :3::K: series isn't a huge loss but :6::P::K::4: loses it's reliability as a safe, ranged poke string now which was something I used a lot. :1::K::K: giving crumple stun on NH is great news and essentially changes it to what it already does on CH, but as it's hold escapable (you cannot throw punish if it's held as well because of :1::K::K:'s super long recovery, setting critical hold to fastest also grants the opponent +1) and :1::K::K::P: is a high she cannot combo afterwards and the only reliable mixup you have is :1::K::K: and :1::K::2::K: since :1::K::2::K: track whereas :1::K::K: does not. Not sure what the :8::h::+::P: buff means but I guess it's a positive.
Punishable just like everyone else who has a similar attack like ayane's drill kick and busa's drill headbutt thing.
Yeah its got a godawful hitbox, but it shouldn't be safe still.
You'd be surprised with how well :P::+::K: and :6::h::+::K: actually work in the range game, it's definitely not impossible to nab a CH with p+k for a quick 71 dmg
 
#17
Done some testing with :1::K::K: and it's exactly the same as CH :1::K::K: in Ultimate as I guessed. Her low game still blows unfortunately because of the huge risk she takes by attempting a 50/50 with :1::K::K: and :1::K::2::K:, have you seen how unsafe they both are? Especially with the minimal reward they offer. If anything Lisa was nerfed in this revision down to tracking losses from :3::K: series.
 
#19
This. I also noticed that her Moonsault (BT P+K) seems to whiff alot more often.
Moonsault is a dodgy move in the first place, it's hitbox is highly gimped, it's steppable and easily crushed. It's best application is at the wall or after a force teched :9::K: otherwise it isn't abusable. what annoys me is that with most of Lisa's changes in any revision of DOA5 we've had is that they're blatently not tried and tested first. Through DOA5's history, Lisa's changelog has only been detrimental to her and she isn't even an OP character.
 
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