DOA5LR Need some help with how to fight as Kasumi

[helumi9089]

I have some trouble using her moves correctly and have a hard time fighting against characters with punch parries or destructive punch holds(ex: hayabusa).

1.How to stop the opponent from sidestepping except retaliating with mid punches?

She can do this by using moves like 6pk, 3pp or just p+k, but imo her other tracking moves aren't that good.
H+K hits high, tracks and is a high-return move for her, but its i17 and she gets hi-counter hit in i12~i16 start-up frames. This means that you're not throwing this out if your opponent is just at minor disadvantage.

Momiji's and Rachels i12 and i13 tracking H+Ks both do better in terms of stopping people from sidestepping than Kasumi's H+K does.

6K also tracks but has some hitbox issues, and the follow-ups really suck. 6KK hits high and 6K2K is a trash-like low sweep. On the other hand, Kasumi's highly unsafe if it's blocked(-13).

I'm too used to using chracters with moves like 1p that tracks, hits lows and crushes highs.
Kasumi's 1p doesn't track and its follow-up hits high. It can't be used as a tool to stop her opponent from sidestepping. Besides, it leaves her -9 on NH. There's no way she should retaliate with 1p considering what's said aboive. 1K tracks but is slow and doesn't crush highs. Button mashers would just jab me out even if they're at disadvantage.


2.How to deal with people that like to throw out holds after their safe moves gets blocked or they just don't throw out the follow-ups ?

I tend to retaliate with mid punches in order to stop my opponent from sidestepping and high crushing because her 6k is lame and she has no tracking lows that's fast enough, but this makes me too predictable. So I really feel that characters like hayabusa and ayane are a pain for me.

Other characters like Hitomi, Helena have good tools to deal with such people as they have moves that stun on NH and can also stop sidestepping. Hitomi has 6KK and Helena has KK and 3KK. They both also have tracking lows that crush highs, although Helena don't seem to need it. I don't know how to deal with those players with Kasumi.

 

[Lulu]

Well.... if you're being Side Stepped and Held then use throws more often.....

If you find your self getting high counter hit..... then Congradudaltions !!! you have successfully conditioned a predictable behavior. From there instead of working on stuns normal hit.... focus on landing certain attacks that stun on counterhit.

This tech is actually more reccomended for Phase 4 than it is for Kasumi but on a fundemental level it still works.

 

[Goten21]

Basically what the user above me said

I have something to add though, Kasumi has a lot of options with her strings. I'd recommend using strings that end up attacking low, people often don't see it coming. If they do see it coming, just keep switching it up.

 

[Lulu]

Basically what the user above me said

I have something to add though, Kasumi has a lot of options with her strings. I'd recommend using strings that end up attacking low, people often don't see it coming. If they do see it coming, just keep switching it up.

Thats even better..... I play all my characters like Jacky.... its very minimalist . Thats why I was unable to offer Something Specific for Kasumi..... I only use 1/4 of all her good moves.

 

[helumi9089]

Thanks for the replies.

On paper I do know throws can deal with SS and holds, but in situations where my opponent throws out a move that's safe on block or he just doesn't finish the string, I'm not throwing them for most of the time as I don't want to risk being hi counter hit if they abare.

 

[tokiopewpew]

1.How to stop the opponent from sidestepping except retaliating with mid punches?

6K also tracks but has some hitbox issues, and the follow-ups really suck. 6KK hits high and 6K2K is a trash-like low sweep. On the other hand, Kasumi's highly unsafe if it's blocked(-13).

2.How to deal with people that like to throw out holds after their safe moves gets blocked or they just don't throw out the follow-ups ?

Do not use H+K in close range. This move is a good whiff punisher and juggle tool, but it is, as you already noticed, too slow for everything else. Moves you can use in situations like you described are 6K and KK. Even though 6K has a weird hitbox and will miss the opponent even if he's right in your face, it is still helpful due to it being relatively fast and a tracking mid kick. This move will catch both sidestepping and punch parries and you can also use it for a little gamble by using it's follow-ups.

Thereby, it doesn't really matter that 6K alone is -13 on block because the opponent has to respect those follow-ups to a certain extend. If 6K will hit an opponent performing a hold / parry out of disadvantage, the high follow-up can cause a wall splam for huge juggle damage. You are also better of using this one instead of the low follow-up if you notice you opponent is impatient and tries to counter-hit you with jabs or mid punches after 6K. 6KK is semi safe on block (-7) and a late retaliation when doing 6K2K will knock the opponent of his feet, allowing you to back off. That means there is not much that can happen to you, worst case is your getting counter-hit in the middle of performing the string.

Kasumi's KK on the other hand can also help you to condition players for not making excessive use of sidestep attacks and punch parries. If you are going to use this as retaliation tool, then the opponent will have to think twice about risking a hold or parry after getting blocked because he's getting deep stunned if he guesses wrong. Since you can also delay the second kick of KK a bit, it might also catch opponents who try to perform a sidestep attack because it will retrack. For more variety, you can mix up with K6K or K2K. And in case you are worried about the unsafety of this move, I can just tell you from experince that there won't happen much in case you got blocked.

However, for both of these moves applies that you need to stop using them as soon as you notice that the opponent is adapting to them. Once you've reached that point, P+K, 6PK and 6P2K come into play again.

 

[helumi9089]

Do not use H+K in close range. This move is a good whiff punisher and juggle tool, but it is, as you already noticed, too slow for everything else. Moves you can use in situations like you described are 6K and KK. Even though 6K has a weird hitbox and will miss the opponent even if he's right in your face, it is still helpful due to it being relatively fast and a tracking mid kick. This move will catch both sidestepping and punch parries and you can also use it for a little gamble by using it's follow-ups.

Thereby, it doesn't really matter that 6K alone is -13 on block because the opponent has to respect those follow-ups to a certain extend. If 6K will hit an opponent performing a hold / parry out of disadvantage, the high follow-up can cause a wall splam for huge juggle damage. You are also better of using this one instead of the low follow-up if you notice you opponent is impatient and tries to counter-hit you with jabs or mid punches after 6K. 6KK is semi safe on block (-7) and a late retaliation when doing 6K2K will knock the opponent of his feet, allowing you to back off. That means there is not much that can happen to you, worst case is your getting counter-hit in the middle of performing the string.

Kasumi's KK on the other hand can also help you to condition players for not making excessive use of sidestep attacks and punch parries. If you are going to use this as retaliation tool, then the opponent will have to think twice about risking a hold or parry after getting blocked because he's getting deep stunned if he guesses wrong. Since you can also delay the second kick of KK a bit, it might also catch opponents who try to perform a sidestep attack because it will retrack. For more variety, you can mix up with K6K or K2K. And in case you are worried about the unsafety of this move, I can just tell you from experince that there won't happen much in case you got blocked.

However, for both of these moves applies that you need to stop using them as soon as you notice that the opponent is adapting to them. Once you've reached that point, P+K, 6PK and 6P2K come into play again.

The problem is that the hit levels of the follow-ups of 6K are high and low respectively and they're not that threatening as 6KK only causes a knockdown and it hits high. The same can be said of her 6K2K that also causes a knockdown unless it's landed as a normal hit and it's so slow(i28) that people can even block it on reaction. So people would just crouch to wait for your follow-ups.

On the other hand, I do see that some players will try to grab you right after blocking 6K as 6KK and 6K2K are not terrifying. Being -13 on block means that Kasumi can be punished by i12 throws. For example, Hayabusa can try to grab Kasumi with his i12 izuna drop throw. If Kasumi doesn't go for 6KK or 6K2K, she gets caught by the throw that deals 80 damage. If she goes any of both, Hayabusa would get hi counter hit, but the damage is relatively small(48 for 6KK and 39 for 6K2K).
6K2K is too slow that I even once got counter-hit by i13 mids and I didn't even delay it.

KK can be used if her opponent is at -4 or -5 disadvantage. K is fast(i11), but KK is relatively slow(i16).
Besides, what do you mean by "deep stunned" in the context? Kasumi's KK only does a short stun(+19).

K6K? I guess you mean K3K tho.
For me I mostly use either KK or just K.
She doesn't benefit that much from K3K and being blocked leaves her -16 makes me never use this move.
K2K is sort of similar to her 6K2K; it can be reacted due to its long startup(i25) and animation.

 

[tokiopewpew]

The problem is that the hit levels of the follow-ups of 6K are high and low respectively and they're not that threatening as 6KK only causes a knockdown and it hits high. The same can be said of her 6K2K that also causes a knockdown unless it's landed as a normal hit and it's so slow(i28) that people can even block it on reaction. So people would just crouch to wait for your follow-ups.

On the other hand, I do see that some players will try to grab you right after blocking 6K as 6KK and 6K2K are not terrifying. Being -13 on block means that Kasumi can be punished by i12 throws. For example, Hayabusa can try to grab Kasumi with his i12 izuna drop throw. If Kasumi doesn't go for 6KK or 6K2K, she gets caught by the throw that deals 80 damage. If she goes any of both, Hayabusa would get hi counter hit, but the damage is relatively small(48 for 6KK and 39 for 6K2K).
6K2K is too slow that I even once got counter-hit by i13 mids and I didn't even delay it.

I have the feeling you focus too much on pure frame data and figures.

As said, people will not throw you after 6K if you make them learn not to do so. Getting hit by 6Ks follow-up when trying to throw close to a wall is a ~117 damage juggle for you. 48 damage from a single hi-counter hit in open space isn't also that bad for Kasumi.

However, no one, really no one will use an i12 throw as punish on that move because the chance of getting counter-hit by even every other move of her choice when trying so is very high. Just try it out by yourself in the dojo, record the AI to perform 6K twice a row and then try to izuna grab after blocking the first one. What will most likely happen is that you will still get hi-counterhit for trying although she's performing an ~14 frame move (the second 6K) from -14 disadvantage. Now add additional human reaction time and in-fight stress and you know how low the risk for eating 80 damage for being blocked on that is. So if you get izuna thrown after a blocked 6K, just mash buttons after it next time.

It is right that you can get hit out of 6K2K or low blocked and then thrown on it. Some players do recognize the string and know how to avoid it, others won't. That's why I said you shouldn't use it if you notice they do.

KK can be used if her opponent is at -4 or -5 disadvantage. K is fast(i11), but KK is relatively slow(i16).
Besides, what do you mean by "deep stunned" in the context? Kasumi's KK only does a short stun(+19).

K6K? I guess you mean K3K tho.
For me I mostly use either KK or just K.
She doesn't benefit that much from K3K and being blocked leaves her -16 makes me never use this move.
K2K is sort of similar to her 6K2K; it can be reacted due to its long startup(i25) and animation.

We could now start a discussion about when a deep stun begins but I think we can skip this since we both agree that having +19 advantage is way enough for the fastest striker in the game to keep offensive going, especially since most players won't slow escape that fast on it when they expected to catch one of your mid strikes instead. And yes, I meant K3K, my bad.

What you do not seem to notice is that the K string offers you a simple but good variation of opportunities for getting frame advantage and for conditioning your opponent. K2K is slow and can be crouch blocked on reaction yes, but that's what you got K3K as a mid for. You have all three hit levels available after K, so your task is to figure out what your opponent does respect and/or react to and what not. And all three variants will deal with sidestep attacks and punch parries, just to point that out and to come back to your initial question.

 

[Chapstick]

One word of caution, Marie's and Hayate's special sidesteps can avoid both P+K and 6K. It's stupid but they can and frequently do when I use Kasumi against them.

 

[PMS_Akali]

Good Marie players annoy me when I'm on Kasumi.