"Pedestal Mentality": How it Hurts the FGC

[Awesmic]

Normally I don't make serious topics, and I'm not known for them, but in this case, I found something interesting. Wasn't sure how to title this subject, so I winged it the best I could, so cut me some slack.

I was checking out some videos from this one Youtuber named EventStatus (who has done many insightful videos about the FGC and gaming in general, highly recommend checking it out), and in his recent gaming video I found an interesting topic that may prove relevant to the recent things going on here, more specifically the DOA5U blacklist topic.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/turning-over-a-new-leaf.41789/

The OP from TestYourMight - Emperor DMS - wrote this:

I discussed this extensively with @@Tom Brady on my drive back home, and he had several excellent points. We as a community put too much stock in who's better rather than learning together. Players are literally scared to attend future tournaments because they feel pressured to achieve a standard placed on them by outside parties, based on the merits of other people who play their characters. "Well ForeverKing placed 4th, so DarthArma must do better or he's automatically a worse player." Players who come from Xbox Live and PSN and haven't spoken a word to ANYONE are being watched under a microscope because someone "Rebelo'd" them and they HAVE to deliver or they're a fraud. I am not talking about the guys who preach about being the best and get a foot up their ass. I'm talking about people who mind their own business, play their game, don't make it out of pools, and somehow get deemed mediocre by varying portions of the community. Those same people can end up in Grand Finals at the next Major and make EVERYONE look foolish. I am guilty of this, and I apologize.

I'm done with this ___ of America shit. Play your character and enjoy yourself. If you don't place, try again next time. I will no longer be using players as measuring sticks for characters. Everyone plays their character differently and will have varying levels of success. What we need to do moving forward, is share as much tech as possible, and help each other improve, rather than hold each other back. Tom has been saying for awhile "WE DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT THIS GAME!" and he's right. Sonic Fox has Aquaman tech that Tom didn't know about. Sonic Fox has undiscovered tech for a lot of the cast, but people shut him down because "he doesn't main the character" and shouldn't be considered an authority. We need to stop this. I said at NEC if Theo, Slayer, and KDZ combined their styles and helped each other improve on what they're lacking, they could further the development of Superman and make him more complete. There is no "wrong" way to play any character. Certain styles work in certain situations, and learning when to incorporate varying styles can help you with difficult matchups.

Leaving this all behind, I want the community to join me in moving forward. People will not be directly or indirectly insulted on our podcast for "under-performing." I want to start a new movement of positivity and help the community grow. We can't do this by acting like crabs in a bucket that are pulling down other players trying to be successful.

 

[Kohlrak]

These communities are already tiny enough, let alone 3d fighters, let alone Dead or Alive. I still think, despite being shown my thinking wrong many times, that growing the community behind this game requires more into actually making it more accessible. The game is mostly about scoring a stun and turning that into a nasty combo. How do you do that? Well, you go ahead and go read someone else's "X guide for noobs" where you'll not only see funky input (2323P instead of 3p [this is the fault of relying on the in game screen to teach characters instead of actually telling them what to press]), or you'll see funky vocabulary that you don't understand. Cow's tutorials aren't that bad, but they present a chicken or the egg problem: to practice what they're telling you to do (and follow along), you need to fully know a character. To fully learn a character, you need to fully understand his tutorials so that you know what you're looking for in the dojo. What ultimately ends up teaching people is when someone ends up taking pity on someone and 1on1 teaches them what they're doing wrong, which they're usually doing wrong because they don't know what they're doing in the first place.

EDIT: I probably should complete my thought, but i got distracted by notifications.

Really, we just need a prelim tutorial for cow's tutorial. The prelim would teach someone enough to get by on cow's tutorial. Easier said than done, though, since cow's tutorial has people constantly switching characters. A dirty solution would be to use cow's tutorials as a base and make a video or two afterwords trying to teach characters using only the terminology defined in cow's videos (as opposed to assuming people are coming from other fighters and will pick up on it quickly).

 

[Desjah Rei]

I already feel this way about the entire 'community' in general. I was already one of those before going off to my first tournament. This mentality that unless you do well, you are a complete nobody. Since you are a 'nobody,' any valid point you make is to be deemed garbage, as are you yourself. Instead of constantly going about calling player's characters and them, as well as themselves 'trash', we should be encouraging them to practice more and help them get better. We play VIDEO GAMES! No one should get special treatment..don't give a damn who you are.

I feel like the community would be better if there would be others to help and encourage new players & those improving. From what I see, it's literally "every man for himself." I can understand that, and yes I am also guilty of being quite rude towards others too as well, I apologize for as such. I don't really believe a blacklist is going to do us much good. I believe it would only segregate us more, like PS3 and 360 already has. Either way, nothing is going to magically happen. It's going to be gradual.

Do what you gotta do, brushing off whatever comes, and standing up for yourself. From what I experienced, it's a wonderful time to have, so, what will I do...? I'll be one of those to do just that for other players, and give them reason to go, for fun, experience, and meeting new people. Games are meant to be enjoyed after all.

 

[Kohlrak]

I already feel this way about the entire 'community' in general. I was already one of those before going off to my first tournament. This mentality that unless you do well, you are a complete nobody. Since you are a 'nobody,' any valid point you make is to be deemed garbage, as are you yourself. Instead of constantly going about calling player's characters and them, as well as themselves 'trash', we should be encouraging them to practice more and help them get better. We play VIDEO GAMES! No one should get special treatment..don't give a damn who you are.

I feel like the community would be better if there would be others to help and encourage new players & those improving. From what I see, it's literally "every man for himself." I can understand that, and yes I am also guilty of being quite rude towards others too as well, I apologize for as such. I don't really believe a blacklist is going to do us much good. I believe it would only segregate us more, like PS3 and 360 already has. Either way, nothing is going to magically happen. It's going to be gradual.

Do what you gotta do, brushing off whatever comes, and standing up for yourself. From what I experienced, it's a wonderful time to have, so, what will I do...? I'll be one of those to do just that for other players, and give them reason to go, for fun, experience, and meeting new people. Games are meant to be enjoyed after all.

Welcome to programming, nusing, language learning, some martial arts, and generally anything else involving a skill that someone can use to say they're better than someone else. It's human nature to do this, mainly so you can put yourself above others. Google "don't eat your young" and you can see quite a few things regarding it.

 

[SilverForte]

Not sure how to put this hmmm... if one truly wants to learn all that he can, he should listen to as many people as possible as everyone has their own view on things, no one should be shut out simple because they aren't seen as "good" or something like that, all knowledge should be accepted and tested.

 

[Tenryuga]

This is one of the main problems with this community IMO. Those that are considered the best rarely share information or participate in any kind of discussion on these forums; They just keep everything to themselves. This is not to say that they won't answer your questions if you have them or go to them but basically that is the approach one must take to get ANYTHING out of them.

To be honest it should not be a necessity for the top players to come out every two seconds to post tech or talk about things. However the community as a whole is not on a level of understanding where we can consistently pump out quality information and answer questions almost as good as the top players would be able to yet.

Then when a player does post information it is at times disregarded and/or mocked BY SOME OF THE TOP PLAYERS AND OTHERS WITH THIS ELITIST MENTALITY simply because the player either is not good enough, is not a "Top" player or is an "online player" / has not traveled enough which magically means they must be devoid of common sense or some understanding of the game when a good amount of the time some of these players have a better understanding of it than some players that frequent tournaments to be frank. This gets to me because you don't want to take a more active role in leveling up a community that needs it but you'll put somebody on blast for trying to do what you should be attempting to do a bit more? There is a difference between correcting somebody and just flat out insulting them.

It honestly has to stop because it's not a very good nor appealing look for us at all. What happens when a player comes to these forums and fails to find the information or tips they seek? They lose interest because how are you supposed to improve in a game when you don't know or understand the first thing about it or your character? How are you supposed to do those things if you don't have a step in the right direction?

Most of us are on this site because we want to be competitive players. This means we should ALL be active in sharing some of our tech, strategies and whatever else we have because the more we know/understand about the game and it's characters the better our skill levels can be. What meaning is there in being competitive if there is absolutely no competition? What does someone gain by bodying every single opponent they encounter for free every single time? Is getting the majority of your wins off ignorant players what it means to be skilled? Lol I'm done with the rhetorical questions; All I know is if you are reading this and you are one of those players looking for pointers and/or a sparring partner to level up with or anything you know where to find me.

 

[Kohlrak]

This is one of the main problems with this community IMO. Those that are considered the best rarely share information or participate in any kind of discussion on these forums; They just keep everything to themselves. This is not to say that they won't answer your questions if you have them or go to them but basically that is the approach one must take to get ANYTHING out of them.

Let's have this talk with ATI, NVidea, realtek, and some others. The only difference is that these guys are using popularity as their currency instead of the almighty dollar. However, that's why we get to watch their fights. If we know a given character well enough, could we not see this?

To be honest it should not be a necessity for the top players to come out every two seconds to post tech or talk about things. However the community as a whole is not on a level of understanding where we can consistently pump out quality information and answer questions almost as good as the top players would be able to yet.

Neither can they, which is why they post videos all the time.

Then when a player does post information it is at times disregarded and/or mocked BY SOME OF THE TOP PLAYERS AND OTHERS WITH THIS ELITIST MENTALITY simply because the player either is not good enough, is not a "Top" player or is an "online player" / has not traveled enough which magically means they must be devoid of common sense or some understanding of the game when a good amount of the time some of these players have a better understanding of it than some players that frequent tournaments to be frank. This gets to me because you don't want to take a more active role in leveling up a community that needs it but you'll put somebody on blast for trying to do what you should be attempting to do a bit more? There is a difference between correcting somebody and just flat out insulting them.

Like i said, i see this everywhere. So far, at least on FSD, this is much less of a problem than it is in other places. Not to say that it doesn't happen or that that makes it OK, so much as to say that DoA has some bigger problems right now.

It honestly has to stop because it's not a very good nor appealing look for us at all. What happens when a player comes to these forums and fails to find the information or tips they seek? They lose interest because how are you supposed to improve in a game when you don't know or understand the first thing about it or your character? How are you supposed to do those things if you don't have a step in the right direction?
Most of us are on this site because we want to be competitive players. This means we should ALL be active in sharing some of our tech, strategies and whatever else we have because the more we know/understand about the game and it's characters the better our skill levels can be. What meaning is there in being competitive if there is absolutely no competition? What does someone gain by bodying every single opponent they encounter for free every single time? Is getting the majority of your wins off ignorant players what it means to be skilled? Lol I'm done with the rhetorical questions; All I know is if you are reading this and you are one of those players looking for pointers and/or a sparring partner to level up with or anything you know where to find me.

Now this is the REAL problem with 3d fighters. My PS3 is coming soon. Majestic Blue was planning something to deal with this, and me and a friend of his spent a few hours talking about it. He seems to have disappeared off the face of the planet, so i'm thinking about going ahead and doing my own project. If you have skype and a recording method, add me, because I have a pretty clear picture in my mind of what I think would be the best solution (although it'll be alot of work). We'll talk scheduling and ideas for now until we can get it underway.

 

[Tenryuga]

Now this is the REAL problem with 3d fighters. My PS3 is coming soon. Majestic Blue was planning something to deal with this, and me and a friend of his spent a few hours talking about it. He seems to have disappeared off the face of the planet, so i'm thinking about going ahead and doing my own project. If you have skype and a recording method, add me, because I have a pretty clear picture in my mind of what I think would be the best solution (although it'll be alot of work). We'll talk scheduling and ideas for now until we can get it underway.

I've no method of recording things but I do have skype. And yeah Blue's been busy; He was telling me something about doing a podcast.

 

[Kohlrak]

I've no method of recording things but I do have skype. And yeah Blue's been busy; He was telling me something about doing a podcast.

That's what me and him talked about. The way it was going, it was just going to end up another series almost exactly like emperor cow's, only showing more input, going in slow mo, and you'll get to see their hands and faces alot. Their biggest concern was how to get it so that they could put 2 or more inputs into 1 video at the same time (like how many japanese comedy shows show the joke and a spectator in the top right corner). What i proposed to him was something completely different. I'll explain in more detail on skype (no need to call, but it seems more stable than the chat on this site, and i want to get some feedback in a more private way than out in the open on the boards, and you'll see why).

 

[X51]

I agree that if someone has a good idea, or is not a bad idea because no one tried before to prove otherwise, about match-ups, traps, gimmicks, meaties, okis, etc., shouldn't be blacked out just because he/she can get to top 8 or whatever the "skilled player" level is set by scrubby audiences(most of them are mediocre players like me that study the metagame but lacks the magic... I don't even study de metagame anymore, I play and learn what I can trying to get fun).

On the other hand, recognition is not needed if you just want to have fun and enjoy the game. All you do, or don't, is to improve your game play to have more fun basically. So that call for attention shouldn't be necesary in that case.

And last... Why they talk about it using a "unique" shooter as an example instead of an actual fighting game xD

 

[Kohlrak]

I agree that if someone has a good idea, or is not a bad idea because no one tried before to prove otherwise, about match-ups, traps, gimmicks, meaties, okis, etc., shouldn't be blacked out just because he/she can get to top 8 or whatever the "skilled player" level is set by scrubby audiences(most of them are mediocre players like me that study the metagame but lacks the magic... I don't even study de metagame anymore, I play and learn what I can trying to get fun).

On the other hand, recognition is not needed if you just want to have fun and enjoy the game. All you do, or don't, is to improve your game play to have more fun basically. So that call for attention shouldn't be necesary in that case.

And last... Why they talk about it using a "unique" shooter as an example instead of an actual fighting game xD

The problem is, with games like DoA, there is not middle (casual) ground because of the learning curve.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

The problem is, with games like DoA, there is not middle (casual) ground because of the learning curve.

This. Even though Dead or Alive is far simpler than Tekken or Virtua Fighter to play, it's STILL a bitch to get to a level sustainable enough to really be deemed average.

It's especially notable when you switch to a character you haven't played, but want to learn. It's like trying to make sure you have the character on tap and you think you got them locked...and you got smoked over and over because you then realize the character still has more tech that you have to work out on.

They may even have a whole new way of thinking then the past character you played as.
Emperor COW and plenty of others are doing their fair share, but even past DOA as a whole, this is a problem that stemmed since the beginnings of the FGC as a whole. This isn't real sports and you won't really gain an advantage showing things off, let people know how to truly use a character and everyone benefits.

 

[Kohlrak]

Well, one thing's for sure, there's difficulty in the tutorial mode. If you want me to hit certain combos with an active opponent, that's fine, but at least tell me what i'm doing instead of assuming i actually know Hitomi already, despite a few lessons before you told me how to punch.

EDIT: but yes, really. I think the game should be taught from the perspective of a character and teaching that character, not just always using that same character. Then writing tutorials for other characters can just follow a format of "how this one's different from Her." Even more amusing is the fact that Hitomi is in tutorial, but isn't one of the free characters. Either people are learning her for nothing, or people are not getting the tutorial because they don't have her unlocked or whatever. Either way, this isn't helping. We really need a tutorial with feedback from people who never played this or any other fighting game. Only then will it be easy to really get going. Unfortunately, you want something that can get a "result" as quickly a possible, too, or you'll lose their interest. I could go on for a while about this, but im just starting to repeat myself. Those who make the tutorials have the awesome benefit of already knowing everything, so they also have the curse of assumption.

 

[Goarmagon]

Excellent topic. In my opinion the elitist/pedestal mentality is what killed off the Guilty Gear/Blazblue(lol, you cant do a basic bread and butter. go into training mode scrub. also your game is shit) communities. Let me tell you guys something: I cant stand super smash bros, but I have absolutely nothing but respect for the players. They are constantly trying to grow their already huge scene. It never fails that when I am walking past one of their matches and before I can ask anything there is someone explaining to me what the fuck is going on. This is why Smash(Melee) has the biggest scene despite having NO online and NO developer sponsoring(Nintendo actually tried to kill the EVO stream one year). They are fully aware of the pitfalls of the pedestal, or as I like to call it "Felony cocksucking without the intention to swallow". Lets emulate the positive aspects of the smash community.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Honestly, anime players are usually just really really lazy. If you actually ask a top player, they'll tell you anything you want. They just won't volunteer it. I do agree with Smash community being really open about stuff, though.

 

[Cake]

Well, here's my ignorant experience:

So far, I've felt extremely welcome here.
Sure, I haven't really contributed with any techs or stuff, but that's because I am still even trying to figure this game... all I've played so far was Mila and now I'm trying to play Kasumi (btw, the whole different character text up there... so true.).

I have to say, people in this forum are a whole bunch of stuff. Jerks, derps, annoying, crazy, jolly, nice. There's a bit of everything here, but I guess thats why so far no one has insulted me, despite my completely random and make-you-wanna-close-your-tab or lunatic comments about nekkid and girls or general lunacy.
Even when I question something (because really, I know nothing about this game... I crawled my ass up to D- so far, which means nothing but I feel so awesome for that little achievement) people haven't been cruel to me.
Then again, I also try to make sure I'm respecting everyone.

This is my experience in this forum so far. I'm loving it because everyone's accepting my lunacy, and people are actually helpful, at least if they can.

One thing I have to say add, is I love what @Tenryuga, @iHajinShinobi, @Prince Adon and a few others (sorry) are doing with their Team BEST. I feel WONDERFUL. I don't win a single round (well, maybe I do once in a while) but I'm loving getting my ass kicked. @iHajinShinobi doesn't beat the crap out of me, he punishes me for my mistakes. He's literally pushing me to push the right buttons. And all the while we have a nice relaxed environment with jokes in the mix.
This touched me. This touched me beyond anything I ever felt in a community. That they take the time to do this for new people. They are literally pushing for me to try my best, they are correcting me in a constructive manner and they are praising me for my advancements. They are such nice people. The gratitude I feel is enormous. Fuck me, I'm crying while typing this. I can only hope one day I can join them and do the same for other people...

I'm not good at fighting games, hell, I'm not good at games in general, despite being all I know in my life. But they make me wanna stick to this and keep trying my best, because they made me see how I improved and I wasn't even noticing it. They made me feel like even I can do this if I just stick to it.

Once again, I am very grateful, beyond words. To the point of tears. I am sorry if it's cheesy, but I am extremely sensitive to kindness, specially towards me.

Well... just wanted to share... that there are really nice people around here, I guess. And show my gratitude towards team BEST.

 

[Desjah Rei]

Well, here's my ignorant experience:

So far, I've felt extremely welcome here.
Sure, I haven't really contributed with any techs or stuff, but that's because I am still even trying to figure this game... all I've played so far was Mila and now I'm trying to play Kasumi (btw, the whole different character text up there... so true.).

I have to say, people in this forum are a whole bunch of stuff. Jerks, derps, annoying, crazy, jolly, nice. There's a bit of everything here, but so far no one has insulted me, despite my completely random and make-you-wanna-close-your-tab comments about nekkid girls.
Even when I question something (because really, I know nothing about this game... I crawled my ass up to D- so far, which means nothing but I feel so awesome for that little achievement) people haven't been cruel to me.
Then again, I also try to make sure I'm respecting everyone.

This is my experience in this forum so far. I'm loving it because everyone's accepting my lunacy, and people are actually helpful, at least if they can.

One thing I have to say add, is I love what @Tenryuga, @iHajinShinobi, @Prince Adon and a few others (sorry) are doing with their Team BEST. I feel WONDERFUL. I don't win a single round (well, maybe I do once in a while) but I'm loving getting my ass kicked. @iHajinShinobi doesn't beat the crap out of me, he punishes me for my mistakes. He's literally pushing me to push the right buttons. And all the while we have a nice relaxed environment with jokes in the mix.
This touched me. This touched me beyond anything I ever felt in a community. That they take the time to do this for new people. They are literally pushing for me to try my best, they are correcting me in a constructive manner and they are praising me for my advancements. They are such nice people. The gratitude I feel is enormous. Fuck me, I'm crying while typing this. I can only hope one day I can join them and do the same for other people...

I'm not good at fighting games, hell, I'm not good at games in general, despite being all I know in my life. But they make me wanna stick to this and keep trying my best, because they made me see how I improved and I wasn't even noticing it. They made me feel like even I can do this if I just stick to it.

Once again, I am very grateful, beyond words. To the point of tears. I am sorry if it's cheesy, but I am extremely sensitive to kindness, specially towards me.

Well... just wanted to share... that there are really nice people around here, I guess. And show my gratitude towards team BEST.

Welcome to the community. Sorry, I'm a bit late, but it's great to see how strongly you feel about this. It was fun having the chance to actually fight you. I apologize for our terrible connection together due to distance, but hey maybe we'll have a better opportunity in the long run. Pleasure meetin' ya. Cake or upnobody, whichever you prefer.

 

[Cake]

Cake <3 maybe one day I'll change the GT lol

Thank you very much, nice playing with you too :3

 

[Rikuto]

Do you know Justownin/Infinite Light?

This community has a high tolerance for eccentricity.

 

[Awesmic]

Do you know Justownin/Infinite Light?

This community has a high tolerance for eccentricity.

I noticed that.

I'm surprised I lasted this long.