Rachel's Future Improvement

Klts3

Well-Known Member
I've been thinking a lot about Rachel recently. I spent few hours training my lovely girl and came to the conclusion that she needs changes. Not now, as I don't expect too many new patches for DOA5U. But she will definitely need them in DOA6. Rachel is good character, great for beginners, really strong at average level of play. But when it comes to high level she's hella hard to master! Your opponent is fast - you've got a lot of trouble. Your opponent has good spacing - you've got a lot of trouble. Your opponent has safety and plays
aggressively - you've got a lot of trouble. She has plenty of strenghts, but against a good player who knows the match-up her weaknesses can really easily lead you to defeat.
While I was training I came up with some ideas. I don't want all of them in game, just some. So:

I.General changes:
- :1::P: can get a low kick follow-up, something like Rollthrough :K:,
- :214::P+K::H+P: should wallsplat AFTER Rachel grabs her opponent, not before. It also means that if there's no wall she would throw them further then she does now,
- :7::K: is really slow (i25) and easy to notice. I think guaranteed :9::K: isn't a sufficient reward and :6::6::P: should also be guaranteed,
- I guess people use :7::P: only when opponent is in stun, but it still shouldn't be -11 on hit,
- Rachel generally needs new string and throws. Look at her official bio: 'Despite being a heavy-weight powerhouse, she has a wide variety of move chains at her disposal. She is particularly skilled at throwing, and is partial to air throws'. For me she has very few string, and characters like Leifang or Marie that aren't specialised in throws have more of them than she has. A combo throw is something she must get.

II. Starting the stun:
Rachel has big problem with starting her offensive. DOA isn't a game where you strike punish that much, and she doesn't have many moves on NH that stun enough to start a combo. That's why I think the advantage of some moves should be increased on NH (for example :4::K: or :H+K:). Also her guard breaks are bad. She's slow, fast for a heavy but still slow. Right now she only have 1 positive guard break (:6::6::K:), which is +1. The rest of them leave her at -1,-2 or -3. She needs bigger advantage from them. Also I think :9::K: and :214::P: could become guard breaks.
III. BT game:
At the moment the only move that leaves Rachel in BT is :4::H+K:. The problem is that it's -12 and launches on CH. It would be nice if she got more BT transitions, as her BT moves aren't bad. TN could not only add new transitions but also some new BT moves. But let's take a look at some of her actual ones:
- :4::K: (i12) is her FASTEST MID and 2nd fastest move after the jab. When you do it while your opponent is in stun, it cause the same type of stun as 3rd punch of :3::P::P::P: (not sure if you can SE from this one),
- :2::P: is the same move as :1::P:, but it's 3 frames faster (i15) and stun for 2 frames longer as CH, of course it still crushes and tracks . Good move when front turned, even better when back turned,
-:2::K: for me this move is really good. Maybe it's slow (i22) but hard to notice. It crashes, tracks, has excellent range and is +15 on NH, so if you're close enough you can follow up with :6::P::P::K:, :H+P:.
On CH it's +21.
For me her BT isn't bad, it would be pretty decent after adding few transitions and moves, and great after adding CB or throw.
So these are some of my suggestions. Feel free to add your own and comment mine. I hope everybody understood my English, if not then ask me XD
 
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Here are my suggestions :
:41236::H+P: gets a combo throw followup that does around 80 raw damage or the possibility to connect :214::P+K::H+P: after the throw.

:6::P: gets some extra range (currently 1.42m, should be around 1.50m)

:3::H+P: leaves you at +11 on counter or hi counter

Give her a BT throw or OH. Her BT throw could do about the same damage as Ayane's (20,22) or a little more, like 50 or 55. OH could be some kind of rollthrough (like Marie's spinny thingy) and leave you at +11 on counter and hi counter

Edit : Thought of some more stuff

:K: gets a stunning punch followup that launches on critical level 3 (like :3::P:)

:K::K:, :6::K::K: and :6::P::K::K: leave you BT and the last kick is the same as the current :4::H+K:

:H+K: and :P::P::K: leave you BT and have a 13(2)23 execution that leave you at -7 on block

BT :2::P+K:/:8::P+K: makes Rachel do a faster roll-through. (regular rollthrough is active during 15 frames, this one should be active between 10 and 12 frames)

Change her high OH input from :6::6::H+P: to :8::H+P: or :9::H+P: to avoid doing the OH instead of dashing and throwing.

:7::K: guard breaks and leaves you at +3

:6::6::K: guard breaks and leaves you at +3

:236::P: and :P::P::P: guard break and leave you at +1

:214::P+K: and :214::[p+k]: get a new :K: followup that guard breaks and leaves you at +3

BT :P+K: does a sightly faster hammer punch, similar to the second punch in :3::P::P::P: and has a :P: followup just like this one. It should be 16(3)22

Her current :K::K:, :6::K::K: and :6::P::K::K: commands are respectively :K::6::K:, :6::K::6::K: and :6::P::K::6::K:.

Now for some nerfs :

The proposed :K::K:, :6::K::K: and :6::P::K::K: leave you at -7 BT on block and :K::6::K:, :6::K::6::K: and :6::P::K::6::P: leave you at -7 too.

The proposed :P::P::K: string that leaves you BT whiffs the last :K: if done after her air throw (has its uses, but will be considered a nerf :cool:)

The proposed BT :2::P+K:/:8::P+K: leaves your back turned during the animation so throw punishing it counts as a "to foe's back" throw

:214::P+K: and :214::[p+k]: never wall-splat, just like :214::P:.

:214::P+K::K: and :214::[p+k]::K: whiffs if :214::P+K: or :214::[p+k]: hits.

Get rid of BT :2::P::P:, make her BT :2::P: the same as the third punch in :4::P::P::2::P: but a couple frames faster. It should be 24(2)36.

Edit 2 : BT :2::K: force techs to the side (like Hayabusa's :2::H+K: and :1::P::K:)
Edit 3 : Specified some stuff.
Edit 4 : Added a lot of :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
 
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synce

Well-Known Member
Main Character
Tengu
Rachel buffs? Now there's wishful thinking! I imagine she'll get the same treatment as Mila, who started off really strong and only went downhill with every balance patch. TN only listens to the biggest babies when balancing their games. Like the nerf to her 66K, WTF is someone that slow supposed to do with +1? They need to make her faster or seriously increase her damage, but I sense that they'll find something else to nerf instead.
 
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Yurlungur

Well-Known Member
Toronto
Main Character
Helena Douglas
a)- :214::P+K::H+P: should wallsplat AFTER Rachel grabs her opponent, not before. It also means that if there's no wall she would throw them further then she does now,

b) Also I think :9::K: and :214::P: could become guard breaks.
a) i agree with the first part but not the second, if you time it correctly your opponent with eat a grounded heel which is the only reason i'd ever do that string

b) Nobody ever had in any that and that's way too good, if that would happen all people would do is variate those two attacks and spam them, especially qcb+p since it crushes a good chunk of things

Here are my suggestions :
a):41236::H+P: gets a combo throw followup that does around 80 raw damage or the possibility to connect :214::P+K::H+P: after the throw.

b):K::K:, :6::K::K: and :6::P::K::K: leave you BT and the last kick is the same as the current :4::H+K:

c):H+K: and :P::P::K: leave you BT and have a 13(2)23 execution that leave you at -7 on block

d):236::P: and :P::P::P: guard break and leave you at +1

e):214::P+K: and :214::[p+k]: get a new :K: followup that guard breaks and leaves you at +3

f):214::P+K: and :214::[p+k]: never wall-splat, just like :214::P:.
a)qcf+t into 3ppp+k
b)I'd rather have the frame advantage because she'll lose it while going into bt
c)back throws hurt more especially since there's no real reason to do a h+k outside of stun and it's a high? nty
d)they did that, due to the crush properties of the move people kept spamming it
e) qcb+p+k, p does that though?????
f) eh, they did that because they thought it would be cheap to get the heel right near the wall which i somewhat don't disagree with
 
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Klts3

Well-Known Member
So... what about an unblockable? You know, maybe that jumping kick you can do only in The Ends of the Earth/Hot Zone? It actually is/was a punch that looks like a kick but it can be changed.
 

Yurlungur

Well-Known Member
Toronto
Main Character
Helena Douglas
So... what about an unblockable? You know, maybe that jumping kick you can do only in The Ends of the Earth/Hot Zone? It actually is/was a punch that looks like a kick but it can be changed.
booboo, do you like dealing with jann lee's dragon kick? I don't, i pick helena and i stay in bokuho if i have deal with a jann from a distance
 

Yurlungur

Well-Known Member
Toronto
Main Character
Helena Douglas
lol i'm gonna be honest you're the only rachel player who thinks that, i use 7p only when i'm being nice. 9k isnt that noticable for a launch tbh especially if you're doing her throw mixups. also i want 4hk to be more consistant in the stun game which is why i dont want it to launch
 

Klts3

Well-Known Member
I forgot 7P exist, why would I use it when I've got 3P? Also if they will add more BT transitions then 4H+K can keep its launching ability just because of 9P, H+K, 4H+K 2PP, T, ender. This combo is one of my favourites.
 
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