Community The Evolution of The Karate Master

Zeo

Well-Known Member
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So here we are again... I didn't think I'd be coming back to this place. Much less spearheading something as significant as this... but enough reminiscing. I am here today for one purpose, to show Team Ninja, with your help that our character needs help and is just as deserving of evolution as every other character on this roster. And with that I come to you today with something that I hope will help shape the fate and competitive future of our Amnesiac Karate fighter.

I present to all of you...

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So what is "Evolution of The Karate Master"? I'll explain immediately.

It is an open letter to Team Ninja, a message from the Ein community as a whole. For lot of ignorant people, it's probably just going to be seen as a list of buffs, but those that really know the character or should be able to see past that and realize what this is really meant to do, make a statement, a statement that we are not satisfied with our character and and are voicing our opinion as to how to improve him in a balanced fashion into what he deserves to be in this new generation of DOA.

With DOA5LR's announcement, a new ray of hope and possibility opened up for us, with this possibly being the last big update to DOA5, this is a chance for us to get our voice out there so that Team Ninja makes the right choices for our beloved Karate practitioner. Hopefully this blog post gives some insight on what should be improved in order for Ein to be what he should be in a modern DOA game.

I'm about to post the link, but before that...


**WARNING**

You are about to read a very long and very long blog post touching on every strength and weakness of this character as well as everything that should be changed in great detail. There are mountains upon mountains of text and if you do not have the patience, time or temperment to read through it all, either re visit it in spurts or don't bother reading through it. If you still want to support the cause, then you still can by following instructions that will be explained a bit later in this thread.

If you want to dispute anything in this blog, read through it all before making any claims or assumptions about what you think is too much or overpowered. I will have no ignorance or closemindedness in this thread, if you have an arguement against something and are not completely informed on why it should be changed (IE, you didn't read through EOTKM), don't bother posting. I have no patience for ignorant players nor do I have any interest in debates I've already said my peace on. If you have a dispute and are well informed however, drop it and I'll gladly hear you out. You are free to voice your opinion and I don't want anyone to think otherwise.

EVOLUTION OF THE KARATE MASTER: http://vigaku.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-letter-reaching-out-to-team-ninja.html

This has been a year in the making and I could not have done it without the help of good friends Tenryuga, TakedaZX and the Ein community giving me more and more information about what this character is in this game. Credit also goes out to you guys because there is no way I would have been able to do this alone.

We are the Ein players, we share a love for the character and we can all agree that we're tired of the struggle and are ready to let our voice be heard. Do you want to support this character's evolution? Well, here's how you can do it!

The message has already been sent to Team Ninja, all you have to do is retweet the letter! The more support this gets, the better chance of TN taking notice!

(Tweet) Team Ninja:
https://twitter.com/ZeoRebirth/status/507466237287596033
https://twitter.com/ZeoRebirth/status/507468114435776512/photo/1

(Tweet) Tom Lee:
https://twitter.com/ZeoRebirth/status/507468825454186496

I can't do this alone, if you're an Ein player, or even like the character, show your support for this struggling community and retweet EOTKM to Team Ninja. People may say this is unlikely, a shot in the dark or we're wasting our time, but nothing changes if we don't take action and as long as this is out there, as long as they are aware if it's existence, there's a chance. And as long as I know my voice has been heard, I'm satisfied with that. Won't you be glad you did the same?

Well, I've spoken enough. Time to gather everyone one last time, and see who heeds the call.

@Tenryuga @TakedaZX @xSA Mulatto @Allan Paris @Saber @SilverForte @JayceeChris @Brute @UpSideDownGRUNT @Lagstab @MajesticBlue @Nereus @Jaguar360 @LightSonic @Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion @Number 13 @Nightpup @Step @XZero264 @ScattereDreams @Kronin @NinjaSol1988 @Jack @BolverkGTM @FightersLegend

Vigaku.

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Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Overall, I'm actually in favor of most of these changes. The issue I have is that if every one of them were to be added, it layers too much on repeated concepts. For example, you want better tools to combat SSing. Completely understandable. So, how about we give him a standard-ish anti-SS tool? Okay, we get 1P (similar to how you proposed it). Then you want 4P buffed. Then you want tracking added to other moves.

Then, there's an absolute wave of buffs that give him frame advantage out the ass. Why is a +2 crushing mid kick unholdable? I know you play Akira so you're probably used to seeing that kind of thing, but getting frame advantage off of so many different options at so many hit levels is crazy compared to what a lot of the rest of the cast has to offer, some of which have absolutely 0 reliable ways to achieve efficient frame advantage on block.

Then we have a bunch of other proposed buffs to his poking capacity. Understandable. But with all those added, does 6KK really need to be safe? While I'd be looking at it as more of a juggle/bound tool anyhow, as a poke I imagine it should function somewhat similar to Ryu's 3KK (obvious differences noted). Just add some more delay frames to the string to keep the first hit honest and the second hit is fine being unsafe as it is now.

Similar concept with 8P and 8K. You would propose getting two relatively fast sitdown stuns on different hit levels, one that's +18 on fastest escape. I feel like +15 should be plenty for both as it would still guarantee a 4K launch even with your proposed NH KND nerf, plus getting the crouch status launch bonus from the sitdown. 94 points of damage is a lot of guaranteed damage.

So yeah. I know what you're going to say: "Even if they added every proposed buff, he'd still be at disadvantage when paired with Christie and a lot of the other folk." And yeah, that's true. But I don't feel like making everyone into Christie is good for the game at all, and moving in that direction, even without full commitment, would serve to it's detriment rather than benefit, in my own personal opinion.

But overall, support the changes. If he got a lot of what you proposed and they re-worked his hitboxes, I'd be more than thrilled. But, be careful what you wish for. Sometimes when you ask TN for changes, they make the wrong ones. Best of luck. You'll need it.
 
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UpSideDownGRUNT

Well-Known Member
I also agree with most of these, especially the new move options and returning 6P+K and 4K to their DOA4 states.

A couple things I'm not so sure about are the buffs to P+KP and the damage buffs to 6KK and 66KKK.

IMO damage buffs to 6KK and 66KKK aren't really needed as they do decent damage as they currently are, especially in a combo and P+KP I'm not sure about adding these buffs if P+K becomes CB... However, if 6P+K retains i20 and CB status then I'm all for the P+KP changes as it would greatly help the move.

I won't go into too much detail since I'm not a master at this kind of stuff so I'll hold my peace from here on.

But, other than that I'm on board to making Ein a viable character in 5LR as lets be honest here, playing a DOA2-4 character in DOA5U is NOT fun at all especially when he's as slow and unsafe on block as he is currently.
 

Number 13

Well-Known Member
Agree with most of these changes and If TN at least accepts a handful of the key request then it would really help out his quite flawed gameplay approach that doesn't really make him a DoA 5 character. As of now he is inferior to Hitomi in most ways when he could at least be just as good if he got meaningful tweaks. I'm not asking him to be Helena, Ayane, Christie, Gen Fu good, but he can't be designed this bad.

Please for the love of god make P+K for CB and return 6P+K to former glory status if anything that shit is way too slow to be used practically anymore outside of CB purposes.

Nice banner btw and gonna borrow that last pic as an AV since it's epic.
 
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Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
Then we have a bunch of other proposed buffs to his poking capacity. Understandable. But with all those added, does 6KK really need to be safe? While I'd be looking at it as more of a juggle/bound tool anyhow, as a poke I imagine it should function somewhat similar to Ryu's 3KK (obvious differences noted). Just add some more delay frames to the string to keep the first hit honest and the second hit is fine being unsafe as it is now.

I actually proposed this at first lol. Somewhere down the line that got changed.

IMO damage buffs to 6KK and 66KKK aren't really needed as they do decent damage as they currently are, especially in a combo

Hayate 66KKK damage in CH juggle: 40

Ein 66KKK damage in CH juggle: 37

Hitomi PP6PK damage in a CH juggle: 37 (This isnt even her bnb. Her bnb is 8PK6PK which is 38 dmg.)

Ein PP6PK damage in a CH juggle : 33


Stun launch damages off the same damage stater (25 pts)

Ein Ch stun launch mid P: 80

Hayate Ch stun launch mid P damage: 86

Hitomi Ch stun launch mid P damage: 89

Ein Ch stun launch mid k damage: 79

Hayate Ch stun launch mid K damage: 82

Hitomi Ch stun launch mid K damage: 76

Ein Ch stun launch damage high K (off of WRK / 4H+K respectively): 89, 73

Hayate Ch stun launch damage high K: 82

Hitomi Ch stun launch damage high K: 76

Hitomi NH 33T on electric wall: 91

Hitomi HCT 33T on electric wall: 129

Ein NH 33T on electric wall : 90

Ein HCT 33T on electric wall: 130

Hayate NH Nakiryu juggle electric wall: 90 (Up to Gen Fu)

Hayate HCT Nakiryu juggle electric wall: 128 (Up to Gen Fu) 119 (Super Heavyweights)

At Critical burst Hitomi's damage exceeds Ein's no matter what starter while having far better tools and ability to achieve that CB convincingly. At critical level two Hayate's damage rivals or matches Ein on one hit level (High K) and exceeds Ein on two hit levels (Mid P, Mid K). These numbers given and that statement made answer me the following:

Why are characters whose zoning capability rival Ein and have a hell of a lot easier time in close range combat scoring stuns doing damage anywhere near him let alone exceeding him? Just a mere 3 points isn't even putting him above these characters in overall damage. It is making him more or less MATCH them in damage late threshold and rival / exceed them at stun launch which he is supposed to be better than them in with these characters still winning in damage in specific cases after Ein gets a 3 point boost.
 
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TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
@Brute 3kk for Ryu tracks. On top of that, in a clutch situation there's a 50/50 mix up between mid in low. No matter how ass the low is, you can still win off of it or at least get breathing room.

On that note, if you pay mind to what tools were given tracking, they all knock down excluding 4p and 1p. They're reversals on the same hit level basically and the rewards are small frame advantage (CH only for 1P). With 4p... I mean yea I hit you with 4p...but even if you low hold on reaction and I catch you with 4p(p)p, I'm not getting much damage or big combos.

So in short his 6kk changes will stand. It's still up to TN regardless. The tracking changes can stand. In any other situation I'd drop 4p but the pay off for landing it is so low that it's not a big deal to me.

I agree he doesn't really need 214h+k and I can't really give you an argument for that move so I'll leave it to Zeo.

@UpSideDownGRUNT Tenryuga gave you the numbers. The point is also given, Ein is working way harder to get the stun and when he does, he's getting paid less for it... Plus Hitomi shares 80% of his tools and Hayate has better tools that can be used aggressively and defensively. Ein should be doing more damage for how lame he has to play compared to not just them but the rest of the cast in general.

As for p+k's changes... I understand your point. A cancel and an decrease in charge frames could be a bit redonkulous... We'll discuss that.

@Nereus thanks for the update.
 
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UpSideDownGRUNT

Well-Known Member
I actually proposed this at first lol. Somewhere down the line that got changed.



Hayate 66KKK damage in CH juggle: 40

Ein 66KKK damage in CH juggle: 37

Hitomi PP6PK damage in a CH juggle: 37 (This isnt even her bnb. Her bnb is 8PK6PK which is 38 dmg.)

Ein PP6PK damage in a CH juggle : 33


Stun launch damages off the same damage stater (25 pts)

Ein Ch stun launch mid P: 80

Hayate Ch stun launch mid P damage: 86

Hitomi Ch stun launch mid P damage: 89

Ein Ch stun launch mid k damage: 79

Hayate Ch stun launch mid K damage: 82

Hitomi Ch stun launch mid K damage: 76

Ein Ch stun launch damage high K (off of WRK / 4H+K respectively): 89, 73

Hayate Ch stun launch damage high K: 82

Hitomi Ch stun launch damage high K: 76

Hitomi NH 33T on electric wall: 91

Hitomi HCT 33T on electric wall: 129

Ein NH 33T on electric wall : 90

Ein HCT 33T on electric wall: 130

Hayate NH Nakiryu juggle electric wall: 90 (Up to Gen Fu)

Hayate HCT Nakiryu juggle electric wall: 128 (Up to Gen Fu) 119 (Super Heavyweights)

At Critical burst Hitomi's damage exceeds Ein's no matter what starter while having far better tools and ability to achieve that CB convincingly. At critical level two Hayate's damage rivals or matches Ein on one hit level (High K) and exceeds Ein on two hit levels (Mid P, Mid K). These numbers given and that statement made answer me the following:

Why are characters whose zoning capability rival Ein and have a hell of a lot easier time in close range combat scoring stuns doing damage anywhere near him let alone exceeding him? Just a mere 3 points isn't even putting him above these characters in overall damage. It is making him more or less MATCH them in damage late threshold and rival / exceed them at stun launch which he is supposed to be better than them in with these characters still winning in damage in specific cases after Ein gets a 3 point boost.


[USER=3891]@UpSideDownGRUNT
Tenryuga gave you the numbers. The point is also given, Ein is working way harder to get the stun and when he does, he's getting paid less for it... Plus Hitomi shares 80% of his tools and Hayate has better tools that can be used aggressively and defensively. Ein should be doing more damage for how lame he has to play compared to not just them but the rest of the cast in general.

As for p+k's changes... I understand your point. A cancel and an decrease in charge frames could be a bit redonkulous... We'll discuss that.
[/USER]


Hmm, consider me wrong I guess.
I honestly am fine with the current damage out put of 6KK and 66KKK but now I see Hayate and Hitomi do a tad more (I'm not a serious player of either mind) then I guess those changes aren't as unneeded as first thought.

However, I do stick to my ground about P+KP changed to CB AND faster charge with a cancel would be rediculously silly
 
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Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
Regarding 4P damage increase that is just to make it so that 12i mid characters can't just be like hey I can press ANY button and blow you up for trying to use tracking moves on me after you are +1. No other striker has to deal with this as they have reliable tracking on multiple hit levels built in string allowing them to toss moves out without having to think or worry about the consequence since at the very least they will be able to score a counter hit if the opponent presses a button. In Eins case his current 4P will only win against sidestep and lose to a button press. Since Ein's strings are ass and will stay ass aside from like 2, instead of giving him unnecessary new moves I figure hey just make the existing tracking move he has more respectable.

Also If we are back to boosting his juggle ender damage I would say we should drop the damage increase to his whiff punishers. Nobody in the cast has moves of that speed that rival that damage so it is unfair to have both that and boosted strike damage.

We should also be sure to update TN with changes and get this out of the way ASAP. Don't want them to start working on something only to tell them "Guys this is actually OP don't do it." later.
 
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Nightpup

Well-Known Member
1. "No high crushing tool to speak of" I can think of 3 right off the bat. 2P, 9P, and 2H+K. 2P is good in that it's a fast, reliable reset that lets you put pressure on your side instantly. 9P will just straight up launch them after ducking the high, which will get you some yummy counter hit damage. 2H+K is like 2P but better in that it stuns and lets you start comboing. When it comes to crushes, he's fine.
2. "Changes to 4K" ... You want a 13 frame mid kick to be a hard knockdown on NH or an otherwise launcher on CH and HCH? No. That's simply TOO good. That would mean his third fastest move gives him instant pressure by putting his opponent in a situation where they're FORCED to tech up or eat a force tech, and then Ein is left at so much advantage that all his moves might as well be one frame. I have to disagree with this. I don't think any other character in the game has a fast move that puts an opponent in this situation.
3. "8K and its variants made into a sitdown stun at all levels" No. Either 8P or 8K. Pick one, not both. A 50/50 sitdown mixup removes the danger of attempting a sitdown in the first place.
4. "214H+K and running H+K" An unholdable guard break that gives advantage? Be honest. That sounds ridiculous just from that one sentence. Alpha-152 used to have that. ... She doesn't anymore. Even I can admit it was insanely broken. I say make the running version not a GB, and instead -5 on block. And make both versions able to be held.

I'm fine with everything else, and I have one last suggestion: Get rid of the 2-in-1 on 236K. Instead, make it not launch and give it a mixup with the option of going into its normal follow-up via 236K6K, or transitioning into 2H+K with 236K2K. The normal follow-up would be a stun with around +23 on hit, give or take a few frames. On block it'd be -10. The low follow-up would be identical to 2H+K. Also, decrease the start-up on the initial 236K.
 
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Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
1. "No high crushing tool to speak of" I can think of 3 right off the bat. 2P, 9P, and 2H+K. 2P is good in that it's a fast, reliable reset that lets you put pressure on your side instantly. 9P will just straight up launch them after ducking the high, which will get you some yummy counter hit damage. 2H+K is like 2P but better in that it stuns and lets you start comboing. When it comes to crushes, he's fine.

I'm fine with everything else, and I have one last suggestion: Get rid of the 2-in-1 on 236K. Instead, make it not launch and give it a mixup with the option of going into its normal follow-up via 236K6K, or transitioning into 2H+K with 236K2K. The normal follow-up would be a stun with around +23 on hit, give or take a few frames. On block it'd be -10. The low follow-up would be identical to 2H+K. Also, decrease the start-up on the initial 236K.

2H+K is 23+ frames; this is too slow to be using in the heat of pressure reliably. When pressured He's going to be using 2P or 9P. 2P is linear and pushes the opponent away on CH sometimes out of the range of a followup. 9P is good when it hits. A tracking 1P is a great asset to him as it can be used on offense and defense and has more reliable speed than 2H+K so you won't get blown up by someone free cancelling out the ass. Not really a huge deal for him to have this considering there are characters in this game with tracking 1Ps and tracking sweeps that stun on NH.

214K is 17 frames. How fast do you want to make this move and why do you feel it needs these changes?

Also regarding 214H+K please do not forget unholdable is not the same as unpunishable. The move will have large recovery; leaving you free to do W/E you want to punish him. NH stuns, throw punishment whatever you want. I would say that's better than the knockdown off a jumping kick hold depending on the character you have.
 
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Jaguar360

Well-Known Member
Retweeted the three tweets. Reading through the blog post, I didn't find a thing I disagreed with and I especially believe that the Critical Burst change needs to happen. Good read, Zeo. I hope Team Ninja answers the call. :)
 

Nightpup

Well-Known Member
2H+K is 23+ frames; this is too slow to be using in the heat of pressure reliably. When pressured He's going to be using 2P or 9P. 2P is linear and pushes the opponent away on CH sometimes out of the range of a followup. 9P is good when it hits. A tracking 1P is a great asset to him as it can be used on offense and defense and has more reliable speed than 2H+K so you won't get blown up by someone free cancelling out the ass. Not really a huge deal for him to have this considering there are characters in this game with tracking 1Ps and tracking sweeps that stun on NH.

214K is 17 frames. How fast do you want to make this move and why do you feel it needs these changes?

Also regarding 214H+K please do not forget unholdable is not the same as unpunishable. The move will have large recovery; leaving you free to do W/E you want to punish him. NH stuns, throw punishment whatever you want. I would say that's better than the knockdown off a jumping kick hold depending on the character you have.
1P: I never said I didn't want him to have 1P. In fact, I more than welcome the addition.

214K: Oh so that's what the input is. Derp. Shows how much I use Ein now. I used to use him a lot. Anyway, is it really 17? It feels a lot longer. Maybe make it 15 or 16 then. And I want these changes because with the move as it is, it's not good for anything. It serves no purpose. A high launcher that has an automatic followup that gives pathetic damage. Removing the 2-in-1 and adding a mixup will give the move a purpose.

214H+K: Unholdable =/= unpunishable, yes, but getting an aerial Hi Counter Hold does a shitton of damage by itself, and that's guaranteed just from landing the hold. If the move is unholdable, you're left to work for the damage you want to get, and it's my belief that the less risk you have to take, the smoother the match will be for you.
 

Zeo

Well-Known Member
I've gotten some sleep, now it's time for the responses.


You need to take a closer look at this move @Nightpup . Let's examine the bullet points of 214H+K.

1. It's 23 frames, that's plenty of time to be interrupted and even with the +8 on PPP he has nothing to make you respect a move that slow. Add on top of that is because it crushes lows and tech jumps, if he his counter blown while in the air he is taking a hi counter lift stun. That's plenty of risk already. It's a low crush but not every frame of the move does that.

2. As Ten said, unholdable is not unpunishable, with Ein's back to you, you're still free to do what you want, you just have to watch more closely which, given it's startup and animation, wouldn't be that hard.

3. 40 points of damage on hit. If it lands it's even less damage than 236P. Plus they're sent flying and Ein returns to neutral. If it's blocked, it's not +5 or +6, it's +2. It's not a bucketload of frame advantage and after a swing or two Ein's offense is done because he's still not a strong mixup character.

4. 29 frames of recovery, if this whiffs, he's getting popped. I shouldn't even have to say that.

The point of this move is to give him a fairly slow, utility move with frame advantage with the trade off being it's good reward on block, meager reward on hit, reasonable risk if it's held and death if he's counter hit. What exactly is the issue with this move? Because making it -5 on block and holdable would make the move entirely useless and it might as well go back to being i17 if we did that.

3. "8K and its variants made into a sitdown stun at all levels" No. Either 8P or 8K. Pick one, not both. A 50/50 sitdown mixup removes the danger of attempting a sitdown in the first place.

...No it doesn't. Let's look at characters with more than one hit level sit down stun.

Hitomi (i18 mid punch SDS and 8K SDS) - Wouldn't you know it? The exact same thing that I'm asking for for Ein.)
Rig
Ryu
Momiji

These characters have the exact same tools and I don't see anyone complaining or any danger removed from their sitdown attempts, they're held just as often as any other character. So why is it ok for these characters to have these options for a more limited overall character it's too much frame advantage?

Lastly, 4K. You, like many others can't seem to see past the i13 counter hit launch.

It's losing either way to 236P on CH, the juggle for 4K is 62 damage on CH on mids and super heavies and 67 on lightweights. 236P is 56 damage at a frame slower (and even exceeds it at 72 damage on close hit) so it's not ridiculous damage, it's a tool he's had in DOA4 and there's nothing wrong with it. It's -15 and 29 frames of recovery so if it's blocked or whiffed Ein can even be STRIKE or i12 throw punished so I already shouldn't be hearing anything about it's reward when the punishment for it is so severe.

Lastly, the arguing factor remaining is it launching on NH, which we agreed would be powerful so we elected to remove it and bring back the original hard knockdown. Otherwise, it's literally the weakest mid kick in his arsenal in damage with the added utility that it's a NH launch and whiff punish tool.


I'll touch on P+KP after a while, as well as @Brute .
 
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Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
I am burned out on discussing this type of stuff. I hope they give him whatever you guys ask for and it makes you better players and you have easier time dealing with the cast. I seriously do, no bullshit.

So here's hoping he becomes godlike in the new installment. Switching his CB would be cool, but eh.
 

Zeo

Well-Known Member
@UpSideDownGRUNT @TakedaZX

Alright, It seems people have an issue with the P+KP change so let's touch on that now.

P+K is an i20 mid punch as you already know, -7 on block, +20 on NH and CH, delayable -9 on block followup and if we succeed, it's given the properties of a Critical Burst.

Now I admit, this is something that should probably go into EOTKM, but I'll reveal the details on P+KP and the reality of this move if the charge is reduced and a feint cancel is added. Now, I did extensive testing and research on this move before I added this change but it's something I'm pretty sure no other player or even Ein main knows about this string.

So, you have P+KP, an i20 mid punch into an unsafe i15 variant of 236P or charged into a i36 +9 GB. It has no mixup, is one of the longest charges in the game and doesn't even guarantee a followup. You can safely press a button and hit Ein out of it, or simply react to it and sidestep or mid punch hold. You know this already.

.... Now here's what you don't know.

EIN TRADE SECRET

P+K in actuality, has a jailing property on block. P+KP cannot be interrupted on block, this also means that it's a free punish so there's no reason to complete the string right away if it's blocked as there's nothing they can do initially.

The jailing property lasts up until the 23rd frame of the charge. The 22nd frame is an unholdable frame so the punch is launched on that frame and they hold, sidestep or press a button they are guaranteed to be hit. On the 23rd frame of the charge they are allowed to hold, sidestep or attempt to press a button.

Now by changing this move to an i27 charge (and reducing the GB advantage to +5), your opponent has 4 frames to hold or sidestep but you are also completely taking away your their option to counter blow Ein out of the P+KP charge. It can no longer be interrupted by strikes and his opponent's options become purely defensive. For a lot of players this may initially seem like an unreasonable buff for Ein but in actuality it makes this much simpler for the defender.

With strikes out of the picture and no tracking or mixup from this followup, the ultimate answer becomes to hold or sidestep it every time on reaction, which at i27 is completely possible. In that regard the move still lacks a degree of utility because there is a legit way to shut it down every time it appears on screen. Because of that, the charge cancel is implemented.

By pressing H at any time during the P+KP charge, the guard break will be replaced with a feint when it's launched on the 27th frame. At 15 frames of recovery, Ein is punishable in the event they lock up or press no buttons in anticipation of the feint itself. On the other hand, he is left with frame advantage in the event they hold or sidestep during the 23rd to 27th frame of the charge in anticipation of the guard break.

We're going to do some quick math now.

Holds in neutral = 30 Frames in all (18 active, 12 recovery)
P+KP Charge/Feint = 27 Frames.
Frames to Hold/Step = 4 (23rd to 27th frame)

P+KP Charge comes out. Your opponent holds on the 23rd frame and Ein does the feint.

30 - 4 (Last frames of the charge) - 15 (recovery of the feint cancel) = 11.

Ein is at +11 if they hold ASAP in anticipation of the guard break and he feint cancels. +15 if they held on the very last frame of the charge. Sidestepping becomes a grey area due to it's varying followup frame speeds further adding to the options the defender has to deal with an otherwise dominant looking move.

This is all just a really detailed way of saying... it's a 50/50. And there are plenty of those in DOA. If P+K lands on NH or CH of course they can hold immediately as well. I hope this puts any worries of the move's dominance to rest.
 

Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion

Well-Known Member
For Ein's evolution, I suggest he should receive moves that come from the other
3 Main Kata (Forms) of Full Contact Traditional Karate

Shotokan
kanku.jpg

Shōrin-ryū
shorinryusolidcolor.291124229_std.jpg

& Kyokushin
320px-Kyokushin_kaikan.gif
Ein has only mastered the basics of Shotokan Karate, he should be given the other Kata's to have a complete moveset
 
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