NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
This is a simple video worth watching that discusses the reason why the fighting game audience is so small and what can be done to make the fighting game experience better to newcomers.
The fighting game problem
- Thread starter NightAntilli
- Start date
LunaKage
Member
I personally don't think that's gonna matter much in the long run.
The average casual gamer can be broken down into two categories:
1. The gamer who realizes the level of skill required in high level play, and respects those who reach those levels.
2. The gamer who thinks people who know combos are hackers, and use a false "Honor" system which consists of rules they made up themselves that are varying levels of stupidity like "No counters, no hitting an opponent on the ground, no anti-airs" etc.
The proposed refined single player experience would do nothing to change either of these players. Player type 1 could very well end up becoming someone who eventually reaches that level, but is usually held back by any number of reasons, like: "Not enough time, I can't really get into it, I'm terrible at doing 236 motions" etc. This type of player is normally aware of the "Brick wall of info" needed to be good at a game, and regardless if that's the reason they're turned off or not, a simple change in how the info is presented, isn't gonna change the fact that the info is still there, and is still required to be truly good at the game.
Player type 2 is usually dead in the water, the only way to change the minds of these people is to wait until they are older than 12, and if they still think like this then there's pretty much nothing that can help them.
The average casual gamer can be broken down into two categories:
1. The gamer who realizes the level of skill required in high level play, and respects those who reach those levels.
2. The gamer who thinks people who know combos are hackers, and use a false "Honor" system which consists of rules they made up themselves that are varying levels of stupidity like "No counters, no hitting an opponent on the ground, no anti-airs" etc.
The proposed refined single player experience would do nothing to change either of these players. Player type 1 could very well end up becoming someone who eventually reaches that level, but is usually held back by any number of reasons, like: "Not enough time, I can't really get into it, I'm terrible at doing 236 motions" etc. This type of player is normally aware of the "Brick wall of info" needed to be good at a game, and regardless if that's the reason they're turned off or not, a simple change in how the info is presented, isn't gonna change the fact that the info is still there, and is still required to be truly good at the game.
Player type 2 is usually dead in the water, the only way to change the minds of these people is to wait until they are older than 12, and if they still think like this then there's pretty much nothing that can help them.
Oh, come on now. Casual gamers aren't that black-and-white. Otherwise, someone like me - a Type X - wouldn't exist. What is a Type X? For one, the "X" being represented in this scenario is a variable of endless possibilities. As such, a Type X is a type of casual gamer who has endless potential to be competitive, and refuses to be bound by the limited shortcomings of what other competitive gamers label him/her. Some would even call them "Casual-Competitive".
I'm the type of casual gamer who is motivated to become better with the character(s) I enjoy using through unconventional means. And by unconventional, I mean not in the typical "I want to be the best character/low-tier hero/Evo Moment player out there" kind of deal. No, sir. I'm motivated by finding a character that I can relate to (or in a way, look up to) from a better part of my past life, and that is the bare minimum, gospel truth. As long as I have that, I have enough drive to keep playing. If it weren't the case, I would've broken down and dropped this game completely years ago (hell, maybe even months ago), and yet I still stand here playing Christie the best I possibly can after so many years.
This other stuff you're labeling me under mostly has nothing to do with how I think, save for respecting other players, should they give it in return. Learning the game on a competitive level may or may not be a priority for a Type X, but if he/she is driven far enough, they can shock and surprise even the most smug of competitive players offline, where it counts.
You think it to be impossible because you've stereotyped us to a point where you believe we're incapable of learning, when that isn't true for everyone. We may have not been given spoon-fed natural talent since birth like some competitive players, but if a Type X casual gamer has enough heart and the smarts to play the part, you can bet your ass he/she will prove you wrong.
The single player experience is not even being proposed to be the end-all be-all of learning fighting games to a high level, and it sure as hell isn't giving the message that you'll be a god overnight if you play it. It is intended to serve as a barrier of entry to applying basic skills, and nothing more. By the time they grasped the basics taught in a decent single player mode like, say, Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution (and a damn good one, might I add), the brick wall of info would in theory be easier to grasp than they initially believed.
They don't necessarily have to take it all in at once, but even learning it piece-by-piece after what they learned and applied in the well-executed single player mode to test their mettle against real, seasoned human opponents is a good start. At this time, they should be willing to listen to the more experienced players and the process of understanding the terminology little-by-little would go a lot smoother.
LunaKage
Member
Actually you would fit into the type 1. Since I said Type 1's actually have the highest chance of getting to the high level of play.
Most people start off as Type 1s, since most people who transition into competitive play, start off respecting what makes competitive play good/fun.
I simply said that the Type 1s that don't wish to reach that level are held back by the reasons I stated, not that they ALL are held back by those reasons.
Most people start off as Type 1s, since most people who transition into competitive play, start off respecting what makes competitive play good/fun.
I simply said that the Type 1s that don't wish to reach that level are held back by the reasons I stated, not that they ALL are held back by those reasons.
Fighting games are not that easy to categorize. You have your King of Fighters and Virtua Fighter games that sell to their niche only but are respected and then you have your Mortal Kombat that sells to everyone because even people with low skill levels can have fun doing special moves and fatalities. Dead or Alive has a fair amount of success historically with appealing to casuals (arguably moreso than hardcore players) as well. The video seems like it thinks all fighting games are the same based on the title alone. That's not true of any genre. Shooters have CoD and Battlefield, yes, but they also have Homefront and The History Channel games, not to mention hunting games.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
@CyberEvil
Yeah. Maybe. But the video is still right regarding the fighting game community being a lot smaller than the shooter community, both on a large scale and game specific. The best fighting games have trouble attracting the same consistent fan base as a less than average shooter, let alone the popular ones. And the genre is indeed VERY crappy regarding tutorials. Fighting games are arguably the most complicated genre besides RTS, and the more complicated it is, the better your tutorial should be.
A few weeks ago I introduced someone new that ever heard of DOA to the game, with DOA5U. He found the story dull, and when he tried the tutorial, he simply skipped the text, and started mashing buttons until he passed them, not understanding what he was doing. You can say that this is his own fault, but that's arrogant and isn't going to help our community. They are not forced to like this game. It has to be made appealing to them. This is your average new player, and it's evidence that the current methods are not working. If we really wish to grow our community, we need to stop looking down on other people, and stop making up excuses not to better the introduction to fighting games in general. There IS a huge problem here. The first step to solving a problem is admitting that there is one.
@LunaKage
Your type 1 is generally overwhelmed and doesn't know where to start, where he ends up giving up. It shouldn't be that way.
Your type 2 is generally the typical person who does not understand anything about the game. This is the part in the video where people are failing to understand that they didn't reach the game that the gameplay was actually designed for. It might be a problem with the player. In shooters we also have the newbies that cry 'hacker' every time they die from a sniper shot or from something they don't understand. But most of the time, it's the bad introduction to the game that allows them to have those tainted views. We both know that if they understood the game they wouldn't be saying those things. And if the motivation for them to learn it was not given to them from the beginning by the game, the chances are small that their view on it will change.
General note to no one specifically;
Watch your egos.
Yeah. Maybe. But the video is still right regarding the fighting game community being a lot smaller than the shooter community, both on a large scale and game specific. The best fighting games have trouble attracting the same consistent fan base as a less than average shooter, let alone the popular ones. And the genre is indeed VERY crappy regarding tutorials. Fighting games are arguably the most complicated genre besides RTS, and the more complicated it is, the better your tutorial should be.
A few weeks ago I introduced someone new that ever heard of DOA to the game, with DOA5U. He found the story dull, and when he tried the tutorial, he simply skipped the text, and started mashing buttons until he passed them, not understanding what he was doing. You can say that this is his own fault, but that's arrogant and isn't going to help our community. They are not forced to like this game. It has to be made appealing to them. This is your average new player, and it's evidence that the current methods are not working. If we really wish to grow our community, we need to stop looking down on other people, and stop making up excuses not to better the introduction to fighting games in general. There IS a huge problem here. The first step to solving a problem is admitting that there is one.
@LunaKage
Your type 1 is generally overwhelmed and doesn't know where to start, where he ends up giving up. It shouldn't be that way.
Your type 2 is generally the typical person who does not understand anything about the game. This is the part in the video where people are failing to understand that they didn't reach the game that the gameplay was actually designed for. It might be a problem with the player. In shooters we also have the newbies that cry 'hacker' every time they die from a sniper shot or from something they don't understand. But most of the time, it's the bad introduction to the game that allows them to have those tainted views. We both know that if they understood the game they wouldn't be saying those things. And if the motivation for them to learn it was not given to them from the beginning by the game, the chances are small that their view on it will change.
General note to no one specifically;
Watch your egos.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
You guys are missing the point..
Let me give a simple comparison. Say, you pick Halo up for the first time and have never ever played a shooter before. The first thing it does, it lets you know how to look around. After that, it tells you what your health bar and shield is, which button interacts, and it teaches you how to aim, by telling you to look up/down/left/right at specific spots on the screen. After that, it teaches you to walk. Then it teaches you to jump and crouch. Then they give you a partially loaded gun and teach you how to shoot AND reload. You've learned the basics of the game right there.
Then it magically puts an enemy facing backwards so you learn that melee from back = 1 hit kill. Then you get the grenades and it teaches you how to switch grenades, and everything else slowly builds up after that. Most importantly, before you get the grenades, the enemies don't use them either. The enemies start with pistols and assault rifles just like you... And they progress the same as the player. The player spends a very long time fighting the enemy with just a pistol and assault rifle, just to get accustomed to it, before something else is introduced.
I probably forgot a bunch of other things or put them in a slightly different order, but the point is that it's teaching you unknowingly, and all this is happening during the campaign, as a part of the world rather than a wall of text. It does not present you with things that are overwhelming to you. It doesn't allow you to be overwhelmed, simply by disallowing things to be present that the player is not yet ready for. And most importantly... It does not feel like learning, it feels like waking up from a sleep just like the character. When they charge your shields for the first time, there's a reason they discharge it and let it recharge again. It's all combined with sound, and the player will recognize it during the upcoming battles. The amount of valuable information the player is getting without actually feeling like he needs to hit a textbook like in school is the thing that fighting games need to master. The whole first level is basically a tutorial on close quarter combat. The second level is still a tutorial, which is based more on vehicles and long range combat. The best games out there implement the same strategy throughout the game. Look through this and see the genius design that it is (start around 4:50):
Take the campaign and tutorial of DOA5(U), which is still one of the best out there.
The campaign simply puts you against a character, playing as a character you don't know. The only thing a new player will be doing is mashing buttons, since there's already too much going on that the player will never be able to understand. He has to deal with normal hits, counter hits, grabs, throws, OHs, launchers, safeness, circular vs linear. Except the player never got that info beforehand.
The tutorial is boring as f*ck, and the player can also pass it by mashing buttons. Imagine if Halo had the same text thing, and how much more boring it would be. THAT is how fighting games currently feel to the majority of new players. It's easy to tell them to shape up and put the effort that we put in it to learn it. But if we really care about expanding the player base for fighting games, its approach towards tutorials and so on really should change.
Let me give a simple comparison. Say, you pick Halo up for the first time and have never ever played a shooter before. The first thing it does, it lets you know how to look around. After that, it tells you what your health bar and shield is, which button interacts, and it teaches you how to aim, by telling you to look up/down/left/right at specific spots on the screen. After that, it teaches you to walk. Then it teaches you to jump and crouch. Then they give you a partially loaded gun and teach you how to shoot AND reload. You've learned the basics of the game right there.
Then it magically puts an enemy facing backwards so you learn that melee from back = 1 hit kill. Then you get the grenades and it teaches you how to switch grenades, and everything else slowly builds up after that. Most importantly, before you get the grenades, the enemies don't use them either. The enemies start with pistols and assault rifles just like you... And they progress the same as the player. The player spends a very long time fighting the enemy with just a pistol and assault rifle, just to get accustomed to it, before something else is introduced.
I probably forgot a bunch of other things or put them in a slightly different order, but the point is that it's teaching you unknowingly, and all this is happening during the campaign, as a part of the world rather than a wall of text. It does not present you with things that are overwhelming to you. It doesn't allow you to be overwhelmed, simply by disallowing things to be present that the player is not yet ready for. And most importantly... It does not feel like learning, it feels like waking up from a sleep just like the character. When they charge your shields for the first time, there's a reason they discharge it and let it recharge again. It's all combined with sound, and the player will recognize it during the upcoming battles. The amount of valuable information the player is getting without actually feeling like he needs to hit a textbook like in school is the thing that fighting games need to master. The whole first level is basically a tutorial on close quarter combat. The second level is still a tutorial, which is based more on vehicles and long range combat. The best games out there implement the same strategy throughout the game. Look through this and see the genius design that it is (start around 4:50):
Take the campaign and tutorial of DOA5(U), which is still one of the best out there.
The campaign simply puts you against a character, playing as a character you don't know. The only thing a new player will be doing is mashing buttons, since there's already too much going on that the player will never be able to understand. He has to deal with normal hits, counter hits, grabs, throws, OHs, launchers, safeness, circular vs linear. Except the player never got that info beforehand.
The tutorial is boring as f*ck, and the player can also pass it by mashing buttons. Imagine if Halo had the same text thing, and how much more boring it would be. THAT is how fighting games currently feel to the majority of new players. It's easy to tell them to shape up and put the effort that we put in it to learn it. But if we really care about expanding the player base for fighting games, its approach towards tutorials and so on really should change.
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EnvyDesyre
Member
TTT2 is a perfect example of alienating a new player, since the game is so unforgiving. The tutorial mode was entertaining...sure, but it didn't explain anything really advanced. So when a new player goes online and gets trashed by someone who really knows the game, they go through a rut. Another thing is that many people gave up on TTT2 because there was too much shit to deal with. To me, Tekken is one of those games that has a huge barrier to overcome just to be halfway decent. It took me about a year practicing movement and it's still not on the level as Ji3moonAce, Anakin, or Qudans. I think if fighting games could implement everything from beginner to advanced for their in-game tutorials, it would really benefit newcomers, as well as keeping them interested...just my 2 cents.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
I'll have to put this one here also, just so hopefully more people get the point.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
Your post summarizes why people are turned off the fgc.
Elitism. Frowning upon good sportsmanship. Snubbing people who try to play in a way that they enjoy.
Thank you! Perfect! Id say I'm type x as well.
I pick characters I like, play in my preferred style, but I also strive to be extremely good and efficient In my chosen approach. In my case I enjoy risky punishes.
Again, spot on. Lot of people don't understand that when a learning curve is too steep, most peoples reactions isn't to go "hmm this game is deep, I'm gonna sit here and study for days on end till I understand and master it". Nope, most go "fuck it I'll go play something else."
Bottom line is that people need to enjoy playing. Getting overwhelmed with things you can't figure out isn't enjoyable
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Another fun way to learn something in a 3D fighting game (combined with what I already said) might be that some other character like the teacher throws fruits at the player. First he simply needs to block all of them. Some come mid, some come low. He'll be forced to block standing and crouching. Slowly speeding it up and throwing more fruits, and the player will learn fuzzy by himself. If you want to add ducking high attacks into the mix, you make the fruit that comes high extra large which causes a guard break, with a fruit hitting mid after it. The player will soon figure out he needs to duck the high to block the mid one. It can easily be switched to hitting the fruits, sidestepping them and requiring a combination of them to pass.
I'm making this crap up on the spot. And it would probably work. I mean, designers can do so much better if I can randomly come up with something like this. But they don't really make the effort. They fail to realize that it's better for them on the long run, since more people will be able to access and therefore buy their game.
I'm making this crap up on the spot. And it would probably work. I mean, designers can do so much better if I can randomly come up with something like this. But they don't really make the effort. They fail to realize that it's better for them on the long run, since more people will be able to access and therefore buy their game.
indieanimator
Active Member
I posted that video a few weeks ago. XD
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/fighting-game-mechanics-video-on-yt.4622/
Ah well, good to read people's thoughts here. Some games have good tutorials, and some have good single player content. Maybe they just need to be brought together somehow.
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/fighting-game-mechanics-video-on-yt.4622/
Ah well, good to read people's thoughts here. Some games have good tutorials, and some have good single player content. Maybe they just need to be brought together somehow.
I remember way back when I was looking for DOA2 hardcore for the PS2 and could not find it(this was before I had internet access) and stumbling across VF4: Evolution. I got it because I had saw it earn a 5 out of 5 on Extended Play(don't judge me! I respected that little bitch Adam Sessler back then). As good as the tutorial in DOA5U is VF4:EVO down right destroys it in regards to how in depth and technical information it had on that DVD. I was enamored but I can definitely see how that would be boring to most people. When I decided to pick up DOA5 vanilla I tried to take as much from that game with me as I possibly could and I learned DOA much faster than I would have without it.
Take a game like Blazblue which requires a lot of study and practice to get good. In my opinion it missed a golden opportunity to take its very detailed story and meld it with its very complex game. I understand that the guys who are good studied and practiced the game and did it from sheer dedication and love. I really respect and adore these guys but if the game developers are truly interested in expanding the market and the players are truly interested in raising the average skill level then games like GG and Blazblue(and FG's in general) have to first off include a tutorial mode that is at least on par with the one found in VF4:EVO and somehow make it entertaining to the average joe-blow coming in from whatever game so that the burden is lessened on the community that has people who lets face it does not have patience that is oceans vast or river deep.
I know some of you would just dismiss this but you would be VERY surprised how much as well as WHAT you can teach someone if you take the time to make it entertaining and dare I say "fun". After all is that not why we play fighting games in the first place? Think about it for a moment, if the game had a deep and detailed tutorial mode that made people want to play through it and get better(i.e. not painfully boring like VF4:E/DOA5U) and it was such a rewarding experience that it makes you want to do it over and over again then that's less work the community has to do to level up the new guy and he would have a good grasp on the engine and you can just focus on the psychological stuff.
That's my $0.02
Take a game like Blazblue which requires a lot of study and practice to get good. In my opinion it missed a golden opportunity to take its very detailed story and meld it with its very complex game. I understand that the guys who are good studied and practiced the game and did it from sheer dedication and love. I really respect and adore these guys but if the game developers are truly interested in expanding the market and the players are truly interested in raising the average skill level then games like GG and Blazblue(and FG's in general) have to first off include a tutorial mode that is at least on par with the one found in VF4:EVO and somehow make it entertaining to the average joe-blow coming in from whatever game so that the burden is lessened on the community that has people who lets face it does not have patience that is oceans vast or river deep.
I know some of you would just dismiss this but you would be VERY surprised how much as well as WHAT you can teach someone if you take the time to make it entertaining and dare I say "fun". After all is that not why we play fighting games in the first place? Think about it for a moment, if the game had a deep and detailed tutorial mode that made people want to play through it and get better(i.e. not painfully boring like VF4:E/DOA5U) and it was such a rewarding experience that it makes you want to do it over and over again then that's less work the community has to do to level up the new guy and he would have a good grasp on the engine and you can just focus on the psychological stuff.
That's my $0.02
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Sambo Swag
Member
Hey OP great post, I think this is a great topic to discuss.
I think the video creator did a good job of explaining a common problem in many fighting games in an easy to understand why. While not all fighting game tutorials are created equal (or even existent), I think it just all boils down to mentality.
Something I want to bring up that supports the video creator's argument is how League of Legends easily brings in casuals. It's the most popular game in the world, and there are plenty of casuals, yet learning LoL is an extremely big task. There are tons of characters, character synergies, items, and lots of other things to learn. IMO it's much more difficult to learn that most fighting games, given how large the continually growing roster is. Yet, even though LoL's tutorial only covers the basics, LoL's fan-base is incredibly huge and always brings in new, casual players. I think this had to do with the fact that people are able to feel comfortable learning the game and improving by having people to play on a similar skill level.
My point is that LoL can get away with a basic tutorial b/c of it's already large casual fan-base. Since fighting games don't have that, this makes great tutorials that let the player learn at a comfortable pace even more important. The video creator does a very good job of addressing this as the main necessity for fighting game tutorials, which could be accomplished through single player.
I know the example isn't perfect, and that fighting game characters are much more complex than MOBA characters, but I hope you guys get the jist of what I'm saying.
I think the video creator did a good job of explaining a common problem in many fighting games in an easy to understand why. While not all fighting game tutorials are created equal (or even existent), I think it just all boils down to mentality.
Something I want to bring up that supports the video creator's argument is how League of Legends easily brings in casuals. It's the most popular game in the world, and there are plenty of casuals, yet learning LoL is an extremely big task. There are tons of characters, character synergies, items, and lots of other things to learn. IMO it's much more difficult to learn that most fighting games, given how large the continually growing roster is. Yet, even though LoL's tutorial only covers the basics, LoL's fan-base is incredibly huge and always brings in new, casual players. I think this had to do with the fact that people are able to feel comfortable learning the game and improving by having people to play on a similar skill level.
My point is that LoL can get away with a basic tutorial b/c of it's already large casual fan-base. Since fighting games don't have that, this makes great tutorials that let the player learn at a comfortable pace even more important. The video creator does a very good job of addressing this as the main necessity for fighting game tutorials, which could be accomplished through single player.
I know the example isn't perfect, and that fighting game characters are much more complex than MOBA characters, but I hope you guys get the jist of what I'm saying.
SpellBound
Well-Known Member
I actually disagree with this video in some ways. I feel like he's asking games to be come easier to play or "noob friendly" which isn't exactly a bad thing, but that won't solve the problem. To get good, these games, it takes practice, and patience. You can't just walk into a fighter and expect immediate results. Like the video said, the FGC is pretty small compared to other gaming communites, so the people that play a particular game on a regular basis, knows what they are doing an wants to level up.
What i would tell someone wanting to get into the FGC is find a game or games that YOU want to play, it doesnt have to Street Fighter
Get used to losing. These games are rough and everybody gets bodied, thats the only way to learn. Look at what you did wrong, see what you tendencies are and make changes. Dont be a sore loser, being salty is one thing, but quiting the game over losing is the main reason why the FGC is a small community, in my opinion at least.
Finally, find where the players are for your game, offline, online, forums, etc. Use them to your advantange to get knowledge about your game. Don't be afraid to ask better people for advice.
What i would tell someone wanting to get into the FGC is find a game or games that YOU want to play, it doesnt have to Street Fighter
Get used to losing. These games are rough and everybody gets bodied, thats the only way to learn. Look at what you did wrong, see what you tendencies are and make changes. Dont be a sore loser, being salty is one thing, but quiting the game over losing is the main reason why the FGC is a small community, in my opinion at least.
Finally, find where the players are for your game, offline, online, forums, etc. Use them to your advantange to get knowledge about your game. Don't be afraid to ask better people for advice.
SpellBound
Well-Known Member
That's a good question. I cant .I'm not someone who has that natural talent. However the few that can play and learn multiple games have amazing fundamentals and just know how these games work. Take Justin for example. He's amazing in every game he plays. He also gets paid to play games and has been doing it for many years. I would also add that there are very few players like Justin compare to theFGC as a whole.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Fundamentals. It's no sorcery or magic trick. DOA is the first fighting game I ever played seriously and it taught me what frame data was and a few other basic things like spacing, hit confirming, mixing up etc etc. I was able to apply this knowledge to another fighting game when I picked up Blazblue and while I am a beginner in that game I can hang with intermediate level players and win against the majority of people who have more experience in the games mechanics. (still get wrecked by tournament players though). When you have fundamentals all that is left is to get a grasp of the games mechanics.
TLDR version: Play a lot of fighting games and develop fundamentals. Apply those to other fighters. Master the games mechanics. Profit.
Sambo Swag
Member
So true. Coming from a SF background helped me pick up DoA pretty easily, despite the 2d and 3d difference. I'm sure years and years of experience in fundamentals are what make the pros so adaptable.
Glad you brought this up, this is something fighting games really need to focus on in tutorials. Spacing, zoning, footsies, punishes, etc. Good fundamentals can take you a long way.